Using FastPass+ Means You Can't Get A Regular FastPass?

RSoxNo1

Well-Known Member
The software behind Next Gen is sure to be extremely complicated. What the guest sees should be considerably less so.

If you decide you want to change your FP+ time or attraction, what I believe will happen is that you use your RFID to start the process, sort of like a barcode reader. A touch screen then will present you with options. Which "experience" (gotta love Disney-speak) do you want to change? Once you select this, it will ask if you want to change the time or the attraction. Let's say you simply want to change the time. The touch screen will then present you with a list of the times available. You select the new time that you want and you are done.

Behind that it's much more complicated. My assumption is that a gigantic database where everyone's current FP+ selections will be maintained. Using information stored in the database, the software will be able to display for you what's available. If too many other people before you have selected the same thing, then it simply won't show up on your touch screen as an option.

Is that any clearer?

I don't know any of this for sure. However, it's what I would do if I were writing the code.
If this is true it will certainly add value to the system, however there is a concern about availability for premier attractions. I would think that this would be preferred for Disney but guests can still "hoard" Fastpasses for the end of the day, they would just do so in a manner that results in last cascading of the Fastpass line. Yes, this can work but I'm still wildly pessimistic.
 

Tom

Beta Return
The "Converting to Paperless Tickets" section of Disney's Terms and Conditions says these two things specifically:
1) You must convert to RFID admission to use FASTPASS+​
2) You become ineligible for legacy FASTPASS once you convert to RFID admission​

So they are mutually exclusive. And it is consistent with what I've heard about legacy FASTPASS being phased out.

I suspect Disney will eventually require all legacy admission media to be converted to RFID prior to use, too.

Most definitely. It's going to take some time, given the vast amount of legacy media floating around the world, but it's essentially a given that everything will be RFID some day.

However, I also predict that new media will still have either a mag stripe and/or bar code (just like the KttW cards they're giving out now) so that if the RFID doesn't work, they still have the backup system.

Regardless, they won't be able to require everyone to go RFID and FP+ until their entire infrastructure is up and running in RFID mode, and FP+ is fully functional.

I predict in the neighborhood of 5 years. Maybe sooner, given the speed at which they installed all the new FP+ pylons, but that's still a lot of guests and media to re-process.
 

RSoxNo1

Well-Known Member
My understanding of the initial plan for FP+ is that AP holders will get a fixed number of FP+ experiences per quarter. So, for example, you may have 20 FP+ experiences you can use between January 1 and March 31. You'd get 20 more for April 1 through June 30, etc. Of course, the number and time duration can change.

As far as how FP+ will impact standby lines, the numbers in that initial plan said that standby waits will go up slightly for the average guest. Something like 1 to 2 minutes for minor attractions, up to around 8 for headliners such as Space Mountain. When we modeled FP+ and strict FP enforcement using our touring plan software, we came up with a range of 4 to 7 minutes per attraction, on average. That seems to be ballpark.
Does this assume that Fastpass+ distribution will be at a comparable rate to current distribution rates?
 

Longhairbear

Well-Known Member
Right now, my biggest concern with FP+ is getting the "good" (what you call "premier") FP+ attractions. Seriously, WDW can't possible give everyone going to DHS a FP+ for (for example) TSM. How are they going to decide who gets one?

What about Peter Pan, Space Mountain, Soarin', Test Track, Kilimanjaro Safaris, Expedition Everest, etc.? Especially at Epcot, DHS, and DAK, the parks have extremely few marquee attractions. What is WDW going to do?

Right now, only a limited number of people are using FP+ during its testing phase. Consequently, everybody seems to be getting the "good" FP+. What happens when the system is fully implemented?
As DVC members we are well aware of how DVC keeps villas out of circulation for breakage. I believe the term breakage can mean cash only reservations (non point) , or actual repair/ cleaning of villas. How many times do we find no villas available, only to learn they are available by paying cash instead of points? Close to any given date, un booked villas are transferred into breakage, and become available for cash, or non point reservations. I think I am correct on this, but maybe totally wrong. Why do I bring this up on this thread?
Fastpass +, and how it might generate profits for Disney. Keep a certain amount of FP+ times in breakage, and sell them at the last minute for profit. Much like another poster mention a Magic Morning List. Pay extra to magic your way into changing your FP+ to many more options for the park you are going to that day.
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
FP+ is going to be usage limited. Day of use will still be limited to those who will end up paying for it. It is just like Universal has tiers. FP is the free tier, it is not going anywhere.

We'll just have to wait and see. I don't see Disney trying to explain fp vs fp+ beyond the transition period. Fp+ for all is my speculation. Sure someone may get more credits than someone else... But it's all gonna be fp+. - that's my belief
 

RSoxNo1

Well-Known Member
My understanding of the initial plan for FP+ is that AP holders will get a fixed number of FP+ experiences per quarter. So, for example, you may have 20 FP+ experiences you can use between January 1 and March 31. You'd get 20 more for April 1 through June 30, etc. Of course, the number and time duration can change.

As far as how FP+ will impact standby lines, the numbers in that initial plan said that standby waits will go up slightly for the average guest. Something like 1 to 2 minutes for minor attractions, up to around 8 for headliners such as Space Mountain. When we modeled FP+ and strict FP enforcement using our touring plan software, we came up with a range of 4 to 7 minutes per attraction, on average. That seems to be ballpark.
So per the latest WDW Today with Len and Jim Hill they mentioned the following coming from the terms and conditions:
  • Resort Guests will be able to book Fastpass+ Reservations 180 days in advance
  • Magic Your Way Guests (off site) reservations can be made 60 days in advance
I assume AP holders would be in that 60 day window as well? Assuming all of this is correct, as well as Len's understanding above about AP holders there are some things I would like to see on both the front end and back end:
  • 33% of Fastpass+ reservation availability should be for the 60-180 day window, 33% of Fastpass+ reservation availability should in the 1-60 day window, and 33% of Fastpass+ reservation availability should be reserved for day guests. Ideally I'd like the day guest percentage to be much higher (perhaps 20/20/60?)
  • You should be able to reserve attractions at two different parks in any given day. The higher demand group should be factored in. For example you should be able to get all Group A attractions at both Magic Kingdom and Hollywood Studios, but something reasonable should be established.
  • The number of Fastpass+ reservations should be higher. Whether this number changes based on how far out remains to be seen. Perhaps the advanced reservations are in the 3-4 range but then once a guest enters that park they can reserve additional experiences at a similar distribution rate to the current system (an additional 3-4 become available)
  • For AP holders, the number of Fastpass+ reservations per quarter does not need to be split into the A group and B group reservations, has no restrictions on the number of reservations per day (just per quarter), and can carry over from quarter to quarter and even with renewals.
 

Skippy's Pal

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
So per the latest WDW Today with Len and Jim Hill they mentioned the following coming from the terms and conditions:
  • Resort Guests will be able to book Fastpass+ Reservations 180 days in advance
  • Magic Your Way Guests (off site) reservations can be made 60 days in advance
I assume AP holders would be in that 60 day window as well? Assuming all of this is correct, as well as Len's understanding above about AP holders there are some things I would like to see on both the front end and back end:
  • 33% of Fastpass+ reservation availability should be for the 60-180 day window, 33% of Fastpass+ reservation availability should in the 1-60 day window, and 33% of Fastpass+ reservation availability should be reserved for day guests. Ideally I'd like the day guest percentage to be much higher (perhaps 20/20/60?)
  • You should be able to reserve attractions at two different parks in any given day. The higher demand group should be factored in. For example you should be able to get all Group A attractions at both Magic Kingdom and Hollywood Studios, but something reasonable should be established.
  • The number of Fastpass+ reservations should be higher. Whether this number changes based on how far out remains to be seen. Perhaps the advanced reservations are in the 3-4 range but then once a guest enters that park they can reserve additional experiences at a similar distribution rate to the current system (an additional 3-4 become available)
  • For AP holders, the number of Fastpass+ reservations per quarter does not need to be split into the A group and B group reservations, has no restrictions on the number of reservations per day (just per quarter), and can carry over from quarter to quarter and even with renewals.


I'm sorry, but this is all getting overwhelming. So not only do I get to / have to make attraction decisions 6 months in advance, I'll now have to / get to make Park Hopper decisions 6 months in advance. And the software to manage all this? Disney's systems track record isn't all that great. Our family has always been planners, but this.....Even with travel from the East Coast, Disneyland is starting to look like the better option for a real vacation, vs. having to re-plan the invasion of Normandy.
 

michmousefan

Well-Known Member
Right now, my biggest concern with FP+ is getting the "good" (what you call "premier") FP+ attractions. Seriously, WDW can't possible give everyone going to DHS a FP+ for (for example) TSM. How are they going to decide who gets one?

What about Peter Pan, Space Mountain, Soarin', Test Track, Kilimanjaro Safaris, Expedition Everest, etc.? Especially at Epcot, DHS, and DAK, the parks have extremely few marquee attractions. What is WDW going to do?

Right now, only a limited number of people are using FP+ during its testing phase. Consequently, everybody seems to be getting the "good" FP+. What happens when the system is fully implemented?
My guess is that when all is said and done there won't be too much of a difference between FP and FPP -- at least in terms of experiencing RIDES. For me the real change will be in getting preferred seating/viewing areas for stuff like parades and Illuminations. I'll appreciate it-- if I can get it. How many places will be "set aside" for FP viewing areas? How many people will be be accommodated in those areas? And those areas are in addition to the existing places that are already set aside for desert receptions/special events/catered events, etc. Before you know it there won't be any good places to watch Illuminations on a "walk-up" basis.

Maybe they will come up with special inflatable barges that float on the edges of the lagoon and float a few hundred folks out there about 8:45 each evening.
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
However, as RSoxNo1 indicates, FP+ clearly is going to favor onsite guests. Obvious fallout (at least obvious to me) from this means:
  • Extra Magic Hours eventually will be eliminated. EMH are supposed to be an onsite benefit. If FP+ is going to favor onsite guests during regular park hours, WDW no longer needs to incur the extra expense of EMH.
  • WDW will try to reduce or eliminate "Free Dining" and "Room Only Discounts". The off season perk is going to be more FP+, not free food. Food costs money. It costs WDW essentially nothing to give you more FP+.
  • Only onsite guests will be able to get the "good" FP+. OK, maybe a few (for example) TSM FP+ will be set aside for offsite guests. But, seriously, why wouldn't TDO want to give its "best" FP+ to its "best" paying customers?
See my post here for further thoughts:

http://forums.wdwmagic.com/threads/nextgen-deep-impact.857159/page-2#post-5244711

If occupancy rates at the Deluxe Resorts are the lowest, I fully expect FP+ to favor Deluxe Resort guests over Moderate and Value Resort guests. However, this is purely speculation. I have no information to support this.

It's worth noting.. nothing prevented Disney from giving greater FP powers to KTTW card holders all these years.. yet Disney did not. The lure of 'unlimited FP' or even less limited FP for KTTW holders never lead to EMH going away.. or discounts.. and never got Disney to actually discriminate between KTTW holders and other ticket holders in the existing FP system. This is a prime example of just because they COULD do something - doesn't mean they will.
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
Sure but TDO now will favor KTTW card holders. See:

Listening to that show - I don't find them citing anything credible to support that as of yet. They say they are going off info in the ToS (the same info we've had) but yet extend that with info NOT in the ToS. We can't take those as facts at this point.

They make this claim about 180 days (NOT in this document and unsourced) and then use the 60 day window from the ToS to establish this tiering. That is a mismatch of information reliability.

Well since len has been posting lately.. maybe @lentesta can tell us where the 180 day reference in that show came from.. as it's introduced as common knowledge rather than as from taken from the ToS under discussion.
 

RSoxNo1

Well-Known Member
Listening to that show - I don't find them citing anything credible to support that as of yet. They say they are going off info in the ToS (the same info we've had) but yet extend that with info NOT in the ToS. We can't take those as facts at this point.

They make this claim about 180 days (NOT in this document and unsourced) and then use the 60 day window from the ToS to establish this tiering. That is a mismatch of information reliability.

Well since len has been posting lately.. maybe @lentesta can tell us where the 180 day reference in that show came from.. as it's introduced as common knowledge rather than as from taken from the ToS under discussion.
I totally trust the initial reports that Len had on the subject and I assume the remaining information he has been given has been acquired from a primary source.

Some concerns here as well is how the linking of passes will work. I would suspect/hope that my family of 5 going into the Magic Kingdom has 20 Fastpass+ reservations that day but they don't all have to be used evenly. It would be incredibly annoying if we had to play the "who am I for this ride?" game. I hope that the reservations can all be linked so that if someone doesn't want to go on a certain attraction you don't need to put them on the Fastpass+ reservation.

For example:
  • 5 guests get a 10:30-11:30 AM Fastpass to Peter Pan's Flight
  • 3 guests get a 12:00-1:00 PM Fastpass for Splash Mountain
  • 3 guests get a 1:15-2:15 PM Fastpass for Big Thunder Mountain Railroad
  • 5 guests get a 2:30-3:30 PM Fastpass for Journey of the Little Mermaid
  • 4 guests get a 3:45-4:45 PM Fastpass for Enchanted Tales with Belle
I know that doesn't quite work with the A/B distribution but it's something that should be considered.
 

lentesta

Premium Member
Well since len has been posting lately.. maybe @lentesta can tell us where the 180 day reference in that show came from.. as it's introduced as common knowledge rather than as from taken from the ToS under discussion.

If I recall correctly, it was in a fairly lengthy document which described the financials, features, implementation plan, operations and guest impact of FASTPASS+. That doc is now something like 18 months old, so the 180-day number may have changed. But the overall approach that Disney has followed since I've seen that, has been almost 100% consistent with the document. Jim has more information beyond that - his sources on this are better than mine. My guess is he'll do a FP+ column or two soon, not that he's said anything specific to me about it.

I hope you're right but if TDO goes the way Len and Jim Hill suggest, it makes complete business sense. What a great way to increase onsite occupancy while simultaneously reducing cost.

Yeah, I think this is a lot of it. As I said in the podcast, if you're asking a business to spend $X on technology, the business partners putting up the money generally want to see a well-defined plan for recouping that $X in quantifiable ways within a specific timeframe. Your business plan is probably going to be very specific in describing which parts of the business are contributing what percentage of $X to the bottom line, and a timeframe for doing that. And tech development teams are usually focused on one of three things:

1) Reducing operating expenses ("OpEx") - mostly labor costs and the cost to maintain the parks, run reservation systems, etc.​
2) Increased revenue.​
3) Lowering the cost of developing future technology​

If you're management, reducing OpEx is very attractive because it's an immediate payback that can be easily measured. You say your new gizmo will reduce overstaffing by 15% each month? You'll get your money, but only after you agree to actually cut staff costs by 15% in return.

Quantifying the impact of increased revenue is a little harder, because external events can impact sales. Tech might claim that FASTPASS+ will increase bookings by 10%, but how do separate out FASTPASS+ from, say, the opening of New Fantasyland or even the general economic trends that have a lot more impact? Sure, you could do a guest survey at the end, but every step you take away from direct measurement, leads to more uncertainty.

Senior leaders don't like uncertainty, especially when talking about tens of millions of dollars in investment. For one thing, assigning credit is difficult. If bookings *do* go up, everyone and their brother will point to their contribution to one of a dozen projects as to why it happened. Year-end bonuses and career opportunities hinge on those things.
 

lentesta

Premium Member
Some concerns here as well is how the linking of passes will work. I would suspect/hope that my family of 5 going into the Magic Kingdom has 20 Fastpass+ reservations that day but they don't all have to be used evenly.

My understanding is that everyone in the party can sign up for different FP+ experiences.
 

trs518

Active Member
Has anyone heard about the quantity of FastPass+ that will be available for each ride's timeslot compared to what's currently available using FastPass?

Also has anyone heard if the distribution of FastPass+ will be metered; x will be available at 180 days out, y more will become available at 60 days, and z more will become available the day of.
 

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