flynnibus
Premium Member
But not mentioned... Didn't they start fp with the weekend starting where the first two days were midweek? Do we think everyone on property knew mermaid was open as soon as it opened?
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Two Spirited Quickees...Imagination closing
- Thread starter WDW1974
- Start date
But not mentioned... Didn't they start fp with the weekend starting where the first two days were midweek? Do we think everyone on property knew mermaid was open as soon as it opened?
SirOinksALot
Active Member
The part you've left out is that the FP return time was always 30-40 minutes out during those first few weeks. There was a serious distribution issue when LM opened because the FP machines are all the way over by Philharmagic, hence why they added signage after the fact to direct people over there.
It never ceases to amaze me how few people understand that FP is a queue that people enter when they receive their ticket with a second physical queue. People with Fastpasses don't wait five minutes. They got in a queue before you. Does FP minimize the amount of time spent in physical queues? Yes. Does it reduce overall waiting, be it in a physical or virtual queue? No.
There it is.... I knew that was coming.
The person "waiting less time" is someone who would have been in front of you in the standby line, increasing your wait by that means instead.
ParentsOf4
Well-Known Member
For many years I was a fan of FP since I knew how to maximize FP usage.
Now I'm of the opinion that the theme parks would be much better places for "guests" if FP was completely eliminated.
FP does not increase ride capacity; it only changes how wait time is distributed. One person gets to wait less time meaning that someone else has to wait longer. Of course FP increases Standby line wait time. It's basic queuing theory.
Instead, WDW is going in the opposite direction, giving us FastPass+. Now even more attractions will have preferred lines, meaning longer Standby lines. I dread what's going to happen at PotC and HM.
You can't market "no FastPass lines" to customers. FP+ is all about marketing, not improving the "guest" experience.
ParentsOf4
Well-Known Member
FP allows me to occupy 2 queues at once; the virtual queue I entered when I picked up my FP and the physical queue I enter while waiting for my FP return time. Effectively, it allows me to be in 2 places at once, increasing my "demand" on the system.
SirOinksALot
Active Member
If you would have ridden those two rides with or without FP, you aren't increasing the demand on the system.
Rodan75
Well-Known Member
For many years I was a fan of FP, since I knew how to maximize FP usage.
Now I'm of the opinion that the theme parks would be much better places for "guests" if FP was completely eliminated.
FP does not increase ride capacity; it only changes how wait time is distributed. One person gets to wait less time meaning that someone else has to wait longer. Of course FP increases Standby line wait time. It's basic queuing theory.
Instead, WDW is going in the opposite direction, giving us FastPass+. Now even more attractions will have preferred lines, meaning longer Standby lines. I dread what's going to happen at PotC and HM.
You can't market "no FastPass lines" to customers. FP+ is all about marketing, not improving the "guest" experience.
I think FP+ may improve the overall experience, if they manage the reservation slots more closely than they seem to today.
What are your thoughts on the Uni preferred queue system? I felt like that has had a very negative impact on my experiences at IoA.
nytimez
Well-Known Member
I can't get into the math arguments. Or the philosophical side. But I do know this: Before FP, I spent a lot of time in lines. Now, I don't. I'm not a rope drop person, I don't wake up early, I don't plan and FP allows me to ride most headliners several times a day (the only consistent exceptions has been TSM, although now I find that also to be the case with Test Track 2.0). I can even get on Soarin' twice on a typical day if I'm so inclined.
Other rides I hit when lines are short. I rarely miss anything I want to ride, and I often ride the headliners several times. And I rarely wait for anything more than 15-20 minutes, often much less.
I don't know how it works for everyone else, but for me FP has been a HUGE win.
Other rides I hit when lines are short. I rarely miss anything I want to ride, and I often ride the headliners several times. And I rarely wait for anything more than 15-20 minutes, often much less.
I don't know how it works for everyone else, but for me FP has been a HUGE win.
ParentsOf4
Well-Known Member
Let's assume 2 attractions both have 1 hour Standby line waits. Let's also assume the FP line wait is 10 minutes for both attractions.
With FP, I experience both attractions in 70 minutes.
Without FP, I experience both attractions in 120 minutes.
The extra 50 minutes I stand in line means that I'm not occupying a queue for a third attraction, placing less demand on that third attraction.
FP neither increases or decreases attraction capacity, it simply alters how the wait time is distributed among individual guests. If one guest waits less, then another guests waits more.
Experienced FP (and eventually FP+) users know how to work the system and know how to optimize their FP/FP+ selections. They will wait less. Less experienced users will wait more.
With just one queue, everyone spends essentially the same amount of time in line. Experienced FP/FP+ users have no advantage if FP/FP+ does not exist.
Belowthesurface
Well-Known Member
Most of you would not enjoy if you had to work a FP Merge point or Return for a popular ride.
Let's examine the FP Return line first...
-People trying to duck under or climb over chains to get into the FP line and then lie about it.
-People crowding the FP Return entrance because they are mad it's not their time so they are going to stand if front of you or just to the side of you until it's their time and then they won't wait in line because they were "already standing there."
-Guests who do not know English try to enter with a park ticket, non valid FP ticket or nothing and then you have to waste time trying to explain to them why they can't come in, all the while, you have other Guests with FP pushing their way past you while you are trying to explain all of this to the non-English speaking Guest.
-People queueing in the FP line, but don't know it's the FP line and get mad at you when they get up to you and you tell them to use the Stand-By line.
-People demanding you let them in early or late because of every reason possible.
-GAC cards with up to 6 people who try to bring in 8,9,10 people and yell at you because you won't make an exception for them.
-GAC cards that have been altered and you have to argue with the Guest about if it was truly altered or not.
-Trash not being swept in your queue or immediate area because there is no possible way for you to move for the position and Custodial does not and won't clean Attraction queues.
-The ride stops or closes for a prolonged time and you are trying to deal with a huge backed up line of people coming from all directions.
Merge point...
-Guests yelling at your for letting in so many Guests from the FP line and then demand answers and continue to yell at you for giving a truthful explanation.
-Guests poking you with their fingers and trying to intimidate you to let them go next.
-Guests spitting on you and or punching you.
-Guests chanting at you and or counting the number of people you letting in from FP out loud.
-Guests telling you you are doing the numbers wrong or demanding you tell them what numbers you are using and insist you are doing it wrong.
-Guests telling you you are treating them like 2nd class citizens and demanding your name so they can complain about you following your numbers at Merge correctly.
-Guests instantly demanding a FP (in or out of line) for any sort of situation that they deem to be bad or unacceptable.
-Groups of Guests lying about how many people they have in their group, thus making the people behind them wait even longer because they combined with another group. If called out for that lie, the Guests get in your face and on the verge of physical.
-Guests getting to you without a FP and when confronted saying "but we are already here, let us go in..."
Don't even get me started if a FP line gets to a Phase 2 or 3...
Physical violence or threats, crying Cast Members, multiple Managers and Security called, changing the amount of people you take from FP from anywhere from 16-80 people based on the length of the line.
Great system.
Let's examine the FP Return line first...
-People trying to duck under or climb over chains to get into the FP line and then lie about it.
-People crowding the FP Return entrance because they are mad it's not their time so they are going to stand if front of you or just to the side of you until it's their time and then they won't wait in line because they were "already standing there."
-Guests who do not know English try to enter with a park ticket, non valid FP ticket or nothing and then you have to waste time trying to explain to them why they can't come in, all the while, you have other Guests with FP pushing their way past you while you are trying to explain all of this to the non-English speaking Guest.
-People queueing in the FP line, but don't know it's the FP line and get mad at you when they get up to you and you tell them to use the Stand-By line.
-People demanding you let them in early or late because of every reason possible.
-GAC cards with up to 6 people who try to bring in 8,9,10 people and yell at you because you won't make an exception for them.
-GAC cards that have been altered and you have to argue with the Guest about if it was truly altered or not.
-Trash not being swept in your queue or immediate area because there is no possible way for you to move for the position and Custodial does not and won't clean Attraction queues.
-The ride stops or closes for a prolonged time and you are trying to deal with a huge backed up line of people coming from all directions.
Merge point...
-Guests yelling at your for letting in so many Guests from the FP line and then demand answers and continue to yell at you for giving a truthful explanation.
-Guests poking you with their fingers and trying to intimidate you to let them go next.
-Guests spitting on you and or punching you.
-Guests chanting at you and or counting the number of people you letting in from FP out loud.
-Guests telling you you are doing the numbers wrong or demanding you tell them what numbers you are using and insist you are doing it wrong.
-Guests telling you you are treating them like 2nd class citizens and demanding your name so they can complain about you following your numbers at Merge correctly.
-Guests instantly demanding a FP (in or out of line) for any sort of situation that they deem to be bad or unacceptable.
-Groups of Guests lying about how many people they have in their group, thus making the people behind them wait even longer because they combined with another group. If called out for that lie, the Guests get in your face and on the verge of physical.
-Guests getting to you without a FP and when confronted saying "but we are already here, let us go in..."
Don't even get me started if a FP line gets to a Phase 2 or 3...
Physical violence or threats, crying Cast Members, multiple Managers and Security called, changing the amount of people you take from FP from anywhere from 16-80 people based on the length of the line.
Great system.
SirOinksALot
Active Member
Which one, the one that costs $18/day or $30/day?
Uni can barely get accurate wait times on their boards so we should give them a pass on either of their half-baked systems.
flynnibus
Premium Member
The other dimension that is variable is the fp distribution volume itself. Which of course is another factor that is hidden from casual observers. Obviously the more they give out, the greater impact on standby, but more people are also getting on with reduced waits.
Based in what I know... I'd guesstimate at low 20% impact where demand is not high or fp dist. Is moderate. But where demand is high and fp dist is high, I guesstimate it can boost the standby 50-100% easily. But that too is capped because the max wait for an attraction is always dictated by guest tolerance. If someone decides small world is not worth a 60min wait... They aren't going to be willing to wait more simply because fp is enabled. Hence lines always have a self regulating limit to how long standby will be. But those tolerances are not constants, but also based on localized factors.
Belowthesurface
Well-Known Member
But their lines move consistently. Disney's does not.
I've timed the queue lines at Uni that I've waited in and all matched the posted wait time.
Belowthesurface
Well-Known Member
You also have to factor in GAC cards using the FP line, Guests relations, Magical Moments, No Strings, Re-entry passes, people using wheelchairs...
SirOinksALot
Active Member
So now you're complaining about being able to get on more rides with FP
There hits a point that people have to come to grips with the fact that life isn't always fair. "If we just had one queue, everyone would be equal" ..... perfect equality doesn't exist even if the goal is perfect equality. And if you want to see a substantially less fair system, just look up the road. You have $$$, skip the line. Where's your fairness argument on that?
I would say that with most everything in life, you need to shoot for what will give the most benefit to the most people. That is FP, not returning to the stone age of all of us standing in line.
SirOinksALot
Active Member
You mean like mid-afternoon when Mummy goes down to one side and every other car is Express only? Yes.... consistently.
Twice in the past two weeks I've had to argue with a locker attendant that I'm not paying $3 to open my locker because it said free while I wait and did nothing but locker --> ride --> back to locker.
ParentsOf4
Well-Known Member
Uni's Express Pass is essentially a "pay-to-play" system. It favors those capable of spending more money.
The Capitalist will argue Uni's system is more fair because Uni is monetizing its assets.
The Socialist will argue Uni's system is less fair since it favors the rich.
I will suggest that if you purchase one Preferred AP, you often can rent a Uni Deluxe Resort room with AP discount for less than a WDW Moderate Resort room. The price difference between a 4-day Uni hopper ticket and a Uni Preferred AP is not that great. Uni often offers 40% room discounts to its AP holders. Plus there's the 10% discount on nearly all food and merchandise. It doesn't take much for a Uni AP to pay for itself.
FP is egalitarian. Everyone has an equal shot at FP based on ability. Someone's success with today's FP system is largely based on knowing how to work the system and being willing to exert the additional effort to pick up more FP. I've been able to score greater than 10 FP selections in a day. So I've been told, the inexperienced often score none. It's been almost 15 years since the introduction of FP and most guests still don't know how to use it.
FP+ will be more like Uni's Express Pass in that onsite guests (i.e. those willing to pay WDW's very high resort rates) will be able to book their experiences at 60 + 10 days, giving them more opportunity to book the "best" FP+ experiences. Offsite guests most definitely will be at a disadvantage.
IMHO, the wild card will be how smart WDW onsite guests are. Will most realize they need to make their FP+ selections as early as possible, just like ADRs.
flynnibus
Premium Member
Point made then
flynnibus
Premium Member
But if there were no fp... Those guests would just be using the exit or similar. Basically their impact is the same with or without fp... So they aren't relevant to what fp causes
No. Soft openings were Friday at 10am. That day the only line was standby and continued to move despite plenty of people stopping to take photos. Saturday morning was the same. At noon ish fast pass opened and standby shot up to iirc 50ish minutes + from its 20-30.
The Friday was a great day to queue for the new ride. The line moved the way it should and the way they used to.
I didn't get chance to ask everyone on property but the line to get into NFL by 955am was past the teacups to the wall opening at Belles.
ParentsOf4
Well-Known Member
McDonald's, Starbuck's, Publix, Target, Home Depot, etc. all have lines. I stand in those lines like everyone else. Life is eminently "fair" in those situations.So now you're complaining about being able to get on more rides with FP
There hits a point that people have to come to grips with the fact that life isn't always fair. "If we just had one queue, everyone would be equal" ..... perfect equality doesn't exist even if the goal is perfect equality. And if you want to see a substantially less fair system, just look up the road. You have $$$, skip the line. Where's your fairness argument on that?
I would say that with most everything in life, you need to shoot for what will give the most benefit to the most people. That is FP, not returning to the stone age of all of us standing in line.
WDW could be no different and, frankly, was a more pleasant experience when all guests felt they were being treated equally.
Just ask a CM working the merge point how "guests" in Standby lines feel today.
FP+ is not about making guests happy. It's about trying to keep guests from wandering off to other Orlando attractions by preplanning their entire vacations at WDW.