The Spirited 8th Wonder (WDW's Future & You!)

[WDW1974]

So... you think he should have to post his updates twice? No offense, but I hardly think that's a fair thing to ask of him, seeing as how he does this for free and all.

Thanks. Sincerely!!!

 

[PrincessNelly_NJ]

I just read that the cost of July 4th week at the WL has went up 85% in the last 4 years. Can anyone confirm that?

 

[khale1970]

That was the whole point of this thread. Or the biggest one.

Disney HAS prices enough folks out of its deluxe resorts (and moderates) that it is planning on converting a significant number to timeshare rather than come up with a more realistic pricing model. That means enough people are NOT willing to pay their rates.

Doubtlessly true, but my response was towards the notion that the market can't or won't bear the price of WDW resorts but it doesn't matter because foolish or ignorant people will continue to fill the resorts. That is confusing the market with personal feelings because full resorts means the price is right for the market. When the market is overpriced (as the OP indicates) even those some would see as foolish and ignorant stay way and you have to increase demand by improving your product or lowering the cost. It seems TWDC has decided to instead reduce supply which gives great weight to the assertion by you and others that they foolishly have no plan to improve the product or lower the price.

 

[PrincessNelly_NJ]

I know you aren't referring to me personally because I would never spend $300-600 a night for a WDW resort - I would much rather save that money for my retirement and for my kids' college fund. I have said many times that I was amazed at people on the Disboards who were quite open about skipping a mortgage payment or going into major debt to take a WDW vacation. An offsite hotel or a WDW value resort just doesn't cut it with people like.

This. I couldn't believe it. People saying they wanted to file for bankruptcy but we're going to Disney parks or Cruises 3 times a year!
I think it goes back to what was said before, that some people spend money on deluxe resorts for the benefit of appearing wealthy. Not all deluxe guest, I may stay at AK next year myself, but just some.
People who spend $300+ a night and never spend time at the resort anyway...

 

[flynnibus]

The Vacation Kingdom of the World of say 1971-1996 was so very, very different than The Timeshare Kingdom of the World of today is.

And, yes, I liked the first version back (and Angie may have booked a future DVC stay for us today ... 'may'!) then so much better.

My first visits were in '80 and '84 then '88. At the Contemporary and the Poly x2. We also stayed at the BC at what I would have said was 1990.. but it must have been later like 91. I've always adored the product, and the Disney company has always been a big supplier of things I enjoy both for entertainment and mental stimulation. (I watched when Disney Channel went live.. over our private 8' solid fiberglass sat dish in our yard.. and hence my avatar) But I've never been the type that goes every year or multiple times a year.

I'd love to see the company do things that make me want to visit more.. but no way am I going to 'default' to Disney for my entertainment or my spending. They don't earn it, they don't get it.

 

[khale1970]

I'd never stay at either of those resorts for those prices. But I won't stay at BC for any price right now because it frankly is run like a Days Inn on the seedy side of O-Town.

But I just don't see a hotel in O-Town worth $300+ a night for a standard room. Not in that market.

Both are definitely overpriced in general and specifically compared to my free 2 bedroom condo at Bonnet Creek I had for 2 weeks. But with the free WDW park hopper and UNI express pass that I would have bought anyway, it was a wash. I got good value out of both, but even if it has Days Inn style management the BC was a much better experience for me and my group.

 

[PrincessNelly_NJ]

Not exactly right.

WDW's occupancy was 90% as recently as 2008. WDW's lowest occupancy ever was 75% in 2002. In 2013, occupancy was 79%, but that number was inflated by DVC, which has added 1950 rooms since 2002. Take away DVC and WDW's hotel occupancy was around 76%. WDW also has about 4% of its rooms out-of-service. Take that into consideration and about 72% of WDW's hotel rooms were occupied in FY2013. (Note Disney's fiscal year runs October to September.)

Excluding WDW, the Metro Orlando area occupancy was 71% (pulled down by the North Orlando area), with the nearby Lake Buena Vista hotels running at 78% in 2013. WDW's hotel occupancy rate currently is running below local hotels.

There's one reason and one reason only that WDW's occupancy rate is lower than Lake Buena Vista's: price.

Disney's plan to convert WDW hotel rooms to DVC is not indicative of a healthy hotel business model.

I guess you all were right, people really do read these threads. I just saw this post referenced as one of the best post on WDW hotel occupancy via Twitter and another theme park site. Look at @ParentsOf4 laying knowledge outside of Wdwmagic!

 

[Mike S]

I guess you all were right, people really do read these threads. I just saw this post referenced as one of the best post on WDW hotel occupancy via Twitter and another theme park site. Look at @ParentsOf4 laying knowledge outside of Wdwmagic!

Of coarse people read these threads (and the site in general). It's the best source of Disney World news on the net I've been reading for years before I finally joined in May.

 

[flynnibus]

I think there is some truth to this. For a one time visitor it's virtually impossible to do everything in a week. Regular visitors may skip a lot at the parks and breeze through it in much less time. I think this connects back to what @flynnibus was saying about losing the feeling of the "vacation kingdom". There is so much to do that a large chunk of guests skipped things outside the parks that were offered. This includes services offered at the deluxe resorts.

In the early days... the park's offerings were less than your planned vacation time. So it was natural to think like "lets do 3 days of the parks.. " even tho you might be staying for 5 days because you had a week long vacation. There was way more than 5 days worth of things to do and see.. but because most were low-key things, you wouldn't rush to try them all.

Now, you may have that same 5 day vacation... but you've been bombarded on all the "must see things" you can't miss out on (Stacey assWad told me so!). Disney bundled my park tickets to my hotel length of stay.. They encouraged me to buy park access for every day... I've bought tickets for the parks, I can't let those goto waste.. I've spent so much money on this trip! All these things roll into the mindset of "go go go" and prioritizing seeing the parks.

Sure there are people that go for 10-14 days and have a much more relaxed pace and there are the DVC people that are there 7-10 days a year so they are always seeking out new things (You can't ride IASW for 10 days straight...). But if you look at the core audience who visits in frequently and for 3-7 days.. I think they fall more into my description more than the latter.

These tends then influence what happens at the resorts. When was the last time you heard someone on these forums talk about the Tennis facilities.. or even Golf? Or talk about poolside bar service, etc. The pushing of everyone to the 'go go go' parks means what were resorts have been abandoned to become hotels. Then the cycle kind of feeds itself.

What we need is a thread where people dig out those old vacation videos WDW used to produce and get people to watch those.. and see the difference in how visiting WDW was presented back then vs now.

I have some great memories from the Poly.. River Country and being blown away by Stormalong Bay.. etc. But when I started visiting again around 2005... things weren't the same.

I don't think there is any going back.. and I don't fault the properties for removing what was no longer really used. But I think the changes are a result of choices.. not chance or fleeting customer sentiment.

Maybe DVC would help bring back the demand for these non-park amenities... but I don't see it happening because people aren't dumping fresh cash into the resorts to float the idea that high quality service will pay it's own dividends. Instead leaving Disney to charge their absurd prices for things.. leaving them under utilized (mini golf anyone??)

As others have pointed out, DVC owners are somewhat less inclined to follow this trend. You know you are coming back soon, so no need to do everything this trip. No need to buy DDP since you potentially have a kitchen or possibly a TIW card. DVC offers additional programs and events at the resorts for families to enjoy. My guess would be DVC owners spend more time at their resorts than cash hotel guests.

I agree to a degree. They certainly need to find more things to keep them busy

 

[flynnibus]

I was just thinking along those same lines, though I have a different view on one point.

The "Vacation Kingdom of the World" mindset is very much alive and well..........in DVC Members.

I agree with you to a point.. but I think it has more to do with the 'captive audience' rather than necessarily a different mindset. You've bought into the idea of being there frequently. Let's be honest, the parks don't change that frequently, so unless you plan on getting all obsessive and ride POTC for the 40th time, you gotta find other things to do right?

Most mention the desire escape from the rat race of life, relax and spend quality family time

This is comforting to hear. I've also heard about people buying into timeshares as kind of a way to 'force' themselves to take vacations too.

It seems DVC appeals to this type of vacationer and it kind of got me thinking. Maybe the DVCifying of the resorts is, on top of being profitable, a signal WDW is returning to it's "Vacation Kingdom of the World" roots and want to attract that kind of vacationer via DVC

I see your train of thought... but I think it's more along the lines of "huge cash up front.. and someone else pays the bills... brilliant!".

I don't know how to crack the code of people's fast pace of life these days. I know I am sucked into it.. managing the schedules of 5 people makes it nearly impossible to find downtime and it bothers me greatly.

 

[flynnibus]

On my June trip, I stayed at both Beach Club (for around $340 for one night to take advantage of a PIN that include 8 day park hoppers for free) and Royal Pacific (for $300 plus $20 for parking to take advantage of unlimited express pass). If not for the unlimited express pass, I'd never stay at RP again based on the hotel experience and how it stacks up. I'd stay at BC again without the free park hopper based on the experience and how it stacks up. Maybe it was just the rave reviews by the sunshine pumping wand strokers, but RP didn't come close to my expectations.

What I didn't like about the RP is that it stacks up like a Convention hotel. Lots of services and food options, but all pretty expensive.. like aiming for the guys on expense accounts. I liked the room.. in that we were able to fit all 5 of us, and that for $250 or so.. I got express passes for 5 people both the day of checkin and the day of checkout. That value was huge. But as a hotel it didn't wow me, and the offerings were nice, but not stellar.. which is why I labeled it as moderate plus. The last two hotels I've stayed in this month both exceed the RP's room amenities.. but were inferior in terms of 'on site options' like recreation, food, etc.

My last stay at the Beach Club was over 20 years ago so I can't really say much except I still think Stormalong Bay is quintessential model of what the Disney difference used to be.

I have one day in Orlando this Nov to figure out what to do with... I'm pretty torn on where to stay and what to do.. and I need to decide soon.

 

[flynnibus]

Is there a way to just get a rundown of the news from @WDW1974 without scrolling through 1700 replies? Why don't we make a locked thread only for him to post then another thread to discuss and to ask questions? @wdwmagic

Follow him on his profile.. and you can get a feed of just his activity I believe. Beyond that.. lobby for the WDW1974 blog he says he will never do

 

[culturenthrills]

Count me in as one of the guests not paying the Disney Deluxe hotel prices anymore. During the years when I did, my reservation would be for 3-4 nights only, as that was the maximum my vacation budget would allow. But, I thought some of the Deluxe resorts were beautiful, so I went for it. Now, even a few nights are out of my reach.

I visit WDW once a year. For the past 3 years, I've been using my AAA discount over at the Swan, received some excellent rates, and the location can't be beat.

Pretty much most of my friends and my family(we had stayed at the Poly, Contempary, CBR, PO and CSR over the years) who used to stay at WDW resorts only stay at the Swan and Dolphin now if they want to stay on property. It is the only half way decent deal left.

 

[Animaniac93-98]

When was the last time you heard someone on these forums talk about the Tennis facilities.. or even Golf? Or talk about poolside bar service, etc.

I could start a thread about the poor condition of some WDW fitness centres, but I fear such a thread would quickly devolve into pointless arguments and perceived personal attacks.

The short version would be to take a look at the Boardwalk weight machines (for example) the next time you're near the resort. Would it kill Disney to replace them once every 10 years?

 

[Animaniac93-98]

Lots of services and food options, but all pretty expensive..

My biggest complaint about the resort. Why should I have to go to CityWalk just to grab a hot dog?

 

[flynnibus]

I wish you'd say something dumb or combative just for the sake of it because I am growing tired of agreeing with you

Is it like the little boy who picks on the girl... because inside he actually has a crush on her? Come to terms with it.. you heart me

I say this because I so agree with the above. I'll add a caveat that Disney lets loudmouthed, rude and crude (and often times borderline criminal) guests walk all over its CMs. If you are quiet, polite and rational, then you'll largely be told that your concerns will be shared with the proper people and to have a MAGICal day/night.

I'm a huge advocate for trust with employees. Hire people you can trust, and if you can't trust them, why did you hire them. Don't skimp and hire bad managers.. they will hire bad people too. Don't treat your employees like criminals. Don't punish the 99% trying to catch the 1%.

I know it's extremely difficult given the sheer scale that WDW is for employment to live those philosophies through and through (especially when you won't pay for talent!) but the extremes to which Disney goes to.. which effectively says to your CMs "you are crap.. you can't be trusted.. you shall not think" is disgusting. I would hope that knowledge that you can run all over CMs isn't common knowledge fueling bad guest behavior.. but the result of it certainly doesn't help control the situation. Too much selfishness in the world and 'everyone is a victim' thinking out there in our court system. I really feel bad for a CM and wish Disney would do more to stand up to guests. You don't need their money that bad Disney... and standing behind your CMs would do a hell of a lot more for moral than putting the fear of god into them.

I never thought I'd defend what you term ''stuffy, proper places'' but compared to what we have now, I love them. I'd rather have that, than the alternative.

I'm no country club type myself.. but you gotta label it something

But you can either fight that, fight for being classy and doing things right and demanding that your cast and guests do likewise or you can throw in the towel because it is easier and cheaper

Do you think it is because it's cheaper to not fight back? Or is it risk aversion taking over everything? The fear of a CM acting wrongly and ending up in the press or courts?

I would love to see some standards of decorum enforced in the resorts.

I just don't understand how Disney can even think they have standards or rules of any value when they never enforce them?

 

[GoofGoof]

In the early days... the park's offerings were less than your planned vacation time. So it was natural to think like "lets do 3 days of the parks.. " even tho you might be staying for 5 days because you had a week long vacation. There was way more than 5 days worth of things to do and see.. but because most were low-key things, you wouldn't rush to try them all.

Now, you may have that same 5 day vacation... but you've been bombarded on all the "must see things" you can't miss out on (Stacey assWad told me so!). Disney bundled my park tickets to my hotel length of stay.. They encouraged me to buy park access for every day... I've bought tickets for the parks, I can't let those goto waste.. I've spent so much money on this trip! All these things roll into the mindset of "go go go" and prioritizing seeing the parks.

Sure there are people that go for 10-14 days and have a much more relaxed pace and there are the DVC people that are there 7-10 days a year so they are always seeking out new things (You can't ride IASW for 10 days straight...). But if you look at the core audience who visits in frequently and for 3-7 days.. I think they fall more into my description more than the latter.

These tends then influence what happens at the resorts. When was the last time you heard someone on these forums talk about the Tennis facilities.. or even Golf? Or talk about poolside bar service, etc. The pushing of everyone to the 'go go go' parks means what were resorts have been abandoned to become hotels. Then the cycle kind of feeds itself.

What we need is a thread where people dig out those old vacation videos WDW used to produce and get people to watch those.. and see the difference in how visiting WDW was presented back then vs now.

I have some great memories from the Poly.. River Country and being blown away by Stormalong Bay.. etc. But when I started visiting again around 2005... things weren't the same.

I don't think there is any going back.. and I don't fault the properties for removing what was no longer really used. But I think the changes are a result of choices.. not chance or fleeting customer sentiment.

Maybe DVC would help bring back the demand for these non-park amenities... but I don't see it happening because people aren't dumping fresh cash into the resorts to float the idea that high quality service will pay it's own dividends. Instead leaving Disney to charge their absurd prices for things.. leaving them under utilized (mini golf anyone??)



I agree to a degree. They certainly need to find more things to keep them busy

I have similar memories of staying at CR and spending a few days at RC and FW and discovery island. Back when you could swim in the lake too if you wanted too. It was a more laid back time.

I'm not saying all DVC owners are taking more relaxed trips to WDW, but some do. @ParentsOf4 posted about a few trips where he spent most of his time at the resorts or water parks and didn't even visit the WDW parks much. When is the last time you heard of a cash guest saying they spent a week at AKL or CR and only visited the parks a few days and just enjoyed the resort amenities?

 

[flynnibus]

Do you think that the "blessing" of size turned into a curse of sorts?

IMO No, because you could create a message that didn't encourage 'trying to see it all' but rather 'we have enough to satisfy all tastes' or 'come back again... we have more..', etc. Disney always had a huge range of options... I really do believe it's all about how its marketed and productized.

Things like Downtown Disney and golf are nice, but I am not going to Orlando to visit Downtown Disney and golf. I may, however, golf and visit Downtown Disney if I am at WDW (okay, I will never golf, but my DH might)

There is a lot to be said for "people wanting what they are told they want". Marketing and advertising is far more influential than people give it credit.

What I can't digest personally is.. how people can subscribe to the idea they want to return to the same place religiously for decades. I say that kind of hypocritically because I've been to the same beach town every year of my life... but its because its where we goto relax, plus entertainment. I can't fathom paying to visit WDW as my relax escape. Maybe it's the distance... maybe it's the looming parks.. I don't know. But it is why DVC didn't appeal to us. I can opt to not goto the beach

Here's a question... if DVC continues to be a significant portion of every headline resort... will they need to change the "best kept secret.." slogan?

 

[flynnibus]

OK, finally something I can sorta disagree with. Royal Pacific may be more like a moderate++ type resort ... until you compare it to Disney's Poly, which is often 2-3 times as expensive yet lacks half the class.

I didn't really get any oozing of class from the RP. More of just tidy and nice effort put forth. I liked the place.. but opulent or over the top service it wasn't. I refuse to label something better simply because it beats a poser

Portofino Bay (post its 2012-13 renovations) absolutely feels deluxe to me in most every respect, at least deluxe by O-Town standards. It also has the best beds I have had at any non 5-Star type location. Just incredible.

I liked the images of the place.. have not seen stuff post-rehab. But I was too cheap to pay the higher rate on our last visit compared to RB. Maybe if some UNI TM fans would support an overworked father of 3 looking for an affordable vacation Portofino can be in my future

 

[crispy]

IMO No, because you could create a message that didn't encourage 'trying to see it all' but rather 'we have enough to satisfy all tastes' or 'come back again... we have more..', etc. Disney always had a huge range of options... I really do believe it's all about how its marketed and productized.



There is a lot to be said for "people wanting what they are told they want". Marketing and advertising is far more influential than people give it credit.

What I can't digest personally is.. how people can subscribe to the idea they want to return to the same place religiously for decades. I say that kind of hypocritically because I've been to the same beach town every year of my life... but its because its where we goto relax, plus entertainment. I can't fathom paying to visit WDW as my relax escape. Maybe it's the distance... maybe it's the looming parks.. I don't know. But it is why DVC didn't appeal to us. I can opt to not goto the beach

Here's a question... if DVC continues to be a significant portion of every headline resort... will they need to change the "best kept secret.." slogan?

I will be honest that I never go on vacation to relax - I want to see and do and explore and experience. I stay home if I want to relax.