The Downtown Disney Thread

[TP2000]

I serve Perrier with fresh lemon wedges at dinner parties. It's a nice thirst quencher and palate cleanser because I generally serve a white and then a red wine offering within that 90 minutes window of eating. Plus, sparkling water is just one of those little details a good host or hostess should do just to make the evening feel special for the guests. Little things add up.

I'm glad Downtown Disney is trying to diversify their dining options, but family spots and a sports bar seem to be lacking in these plans, do they not? Without ESPNZone, plus the stuff like Rainforest Cafe, they really seem to be over-indexing to childless adults. Or is that just me being too sensitive as a childless adult myself?

As for Coke vs. Pepsi, I'll just leave this 30 seconds of Joanie Summers here....

 

[PiratesMansion]

I serve Perrier with fresh lemon wedges at dinner parties. It's a nice thirst quencher and palate cleanser because I generally serve a white and then a red wine offering within that 90 minutes window of eating. Plus, sparkling water is just one of those little details a good host or hostess should do just to make the evening feel special for the guests. Little things add up.

I'm glad Downtown Disney is trying to diversify their dining options, but family spots and a sports bar seem to be lacking in these plans, do they not? Without ESPNZone, plus the stuff like Rainforest Cafe, they really seem to be over-indexing to childless adults. Or is that just me being too sensitive as a childless adult myself?

As for Coke vs. Pepsi, I'll just leave this 30 seconds of Joanie Summers here....

Other than Rainforest Cafe, I don't know if there have ever REALLY been any options that were explicitly focused more on families than other demographics (and as an aside, did ESPN Zone really fit that same niche? Not a sports person, but could easily see that being basically the same as any other sports bar, wherein families can eat there without issue, but it also attracts a fair number of adults who just want to hang out, munch, and watch the game), nor does there seem to be anything there or incoming that seems to be operating in such a way as to exclude families.

I think they're fine. And honestly, I'm not sure families with kids are the main demographic they're trying to hit (or have ever been trying to hit) with Downtown Disney anyway. I imagine they're aiming to be a place for everyone, but especially for consumers from roughly 18-49 (with perhaps a bit more culling on either end of that), because that's who's probably going to be drawn to any shopping and dining complex most often anyway.

 

[TP2000]

Other than Rainforest Cafe, I don't know if there have ever REALLY been any options that were explicitly focused more on families than other demographics (and as an aside, did ESPN Zone really fit that same niche? Not a sports person, but could easily see that being basically the same as any other sports bar, wherein families can eat there without issue, but it also attracts a fair number of adults who just want to hang out, munch, and watch the game), nor does there seem to be anything there or incoming that seems to be operating in such a way as to exclude families.

I was babysitting my nephews a lot in the early 2000's, and ESPNZone was as exciting for them as Space Mountain. Sports, a hundred video games, a dozen air hockey tables, climbing walls, greasy burgers and chicken strips, endless Cokes and chocolate shakes, etc., etc.

It skewed obviously male, but it was a big deal for young boys and teenage guys back then. And their dads and uncles.

The big upstairs of ESPNZone especially was basically a 13 year old boys idea of heaven, only lacking cute 13 year old girls as the waitresses...

The downstairs area of ESPNZone skewed more mature, with a real restaurant, a faux sports book area, bars, that broadcasting area where they actually did some broadcasting back in the 00's, etc.

I think they're fine. And honestly, I'm not sure families with kids are the main demographic they're trying to hit (or have ever been trying to hit) with Downtown Disney anyway.

It's always been a big Date Nite spot for locals, that's for sure. And back in 2001 when DCA fell flat on its face in failure, Downtown Disney was a legitimate hit with locals. This was before other OC malls/areas got in on the same game a few years later; Irvine Spectrum, Pacific City, Anaheim Packing District, Old Towne Orange, etc.

Although when I lived in OC, I more enjoyed the Vietnamese night market in Westminster, but that's just me and my crowd.

Also, the parking options for Downtown Disney in the 2001-2017 era were far easier/efficient. I always valet parked whenever I went to Downtown Disney, regardless of my destination. They don't even have valet parking any more, and on weekends they want you to park in Mickey & Friends for $30. Not fun. Not gracious. Not happening.

I imagine they're aiming to be a place for everyone, but especially for consumers from roughly 18-49 (with perhaps a bit more culling on either end of that), because that's who's probably going to be drawn to any shopping and dining complex most often anyway.

I get that. And I'm glad they are keeping Downtown Disney updated and fresh, which is something I wish I could say for the parks. DCA and Disneyland seem to be stagnating and nearly at stall speed, but at least they've got some new restaurants going in to Downtown Disney. Even if the offerings and aesthetics they are doing look like any upper-middle class suburb in America circa 2019.

None of this stuff they've got opening soon is unique or special, but at least it's new to Downtown Disney's circa 2001 footprint.

I just get the feeling, looking at these names and concepts, that they're skewing too heavily towards childless locals and not enough towards tourists with kids. And the tourists spend a lot more money than locals do, so...

 

[PiratesMansion]

I was babysitting my nephews a lot in the early 2000's, and ESPNZone was as exciting for them as Space Mountain. Sports, a hundred video games, a dozen air hockey tables, climbing walls, greasy burgers and chicken strips, endless Cokes and chocolate shakes, etc., etc.

It skewed obviously male, but it was a big deal for young boys and teenage guys back then. And their dads and uncles.

The big upstairs of ESPNZone especially was basically a 13 year old boys idea of heaven, only lacking cute 13 year old girls as the waitresses...

Is there really a market for that sort of experience at the moment though? That all sounds absurdly dated.

I mean sure, there's always a market for chicken tenders and burgers, but there's also the parks for that and the restaurants across Harbor. There is a little chicken tender stand on the DTD bridge, for those who cannot function without emergency chicken tenders in reach.

The downstairs area of ESPNZone skewed more mature, with a real restaurant, a faux sports book area, bars, that broadcasting area where they actually did some broadcasting back in the 00's, etc.

Right, but presumably it would still be there if it did the business they wanted it to do. Or they could have easily brought it back without gutting the building if they truly felt it was worthwhile.

It's always been a big Date Nite spot for locals, that's for sure. And back in 2001 when DCA fell flat on its face in failure, Downtown Disney was a legitimate hit with locals. This was before other OC malls/areas got in on the same game a few years later; Irvine Spectrum, Pacific City, Anaheim Packing District, Old Towne Orange, etc.

Although when I lived in OC, I more enjoyed the Vietnamese night market in Westminster, but that's just me and my crowd.

Also, the parking options for Downtown Disney in the 2001-2017 era were far easier/efficient. I always valet parked whenever I went to Downtown Disney, regardless of my destination. They don't even have valet parking any more, and on weekends they want you to park in Mickey & Friends for $30. Not fun. Not gracious. Not happening.

Perhaps with all of this Disneyland Forward stuff, they could restore some of that parking.

But it's also worth noting that part of the reason that parking rules changed is that, IIRC, locals were abusing the parking situation to sneak into Disneyland for a few hours. So it's less convenient, sure, but it just takes a few bad apples to ruin things for everyone.

I get that. And I'm glad they are keeping Downtown Disney updated and fresh, which is something I wish I could say for the parks. DCA and Disneyland seem to be stagnating and nearly at stall speed, but at least they've got some new restaurants going in to Downtown Disney. Even if the offerings and aesthetics they are doing look like any upper-middle class suburb in America circa 2019.

Well, if DLForward gets approved, they are obligated to spend x million on the CA parks, so it's unlikely they will be stagnant for that long.

And your modern state of the art design would be instead of that "upper-middle class suburb in America circa 2019" would be what, exactly?

None of this stuff they've got opening soon is unique or special, but at least it's new to Downtown Disney's circa 2001 footprint.

I just get the feeling, looking at these names and concepts, that they're skewing too heavily towards childless locals and not enough towards tourists with kids. And the tourists spend a lot more money than locals do, so...

I mean, there are a lot of childless locals with disposable income who could be lured to spend money in such restaurants. And again, there's nothing here that presumably wouldn't appeal, or is designed to work against, your tourist family of four.

And I think it's time that we acknowledge that DTD needs locals as much as tourists, because frankly if you are visiting as a tourist, you are invariably taking time away from the parks if you're choosing to visit DTD instead. Locals, by contrast, can't get into the parks as easily as they once could, but might settle for a nice meal at DTD as a way to get a quick fix of being on property.

But anyway, with the restaurants, are we really crying at Disney for getting rid of mediocre, more stereotypically "family friendly" cuisine so that they can open new restaurants that appear to have a decent following? I just really don't understand your insistence that somehow the families are getting left out here when there's nothing here appears to be off limits or unappealing for families. And while I don't have kids, I imagine that if you're a parent with a kid, it's frankly easier to just eat in the parks or, if money's a concern, walk off-property to known quantity chain restaurant than eat at DTD, which probably explains why the restaurant mix will be what it will be. Families can eat there just fine, but why aim exclusively for a demographic that might not as reliably eat there compared to elsewhere on the property?

 

[SuddenStorm]

The good news is that the public has likewise rejected Sierra Mist and Pepsico has replaced it with a beverage called Starry. For my palate it's a better lemon-lime soda than its predecessor.

Sierra Mist had actual sugar - Starry is corn syrup. I'm not sure which sells better but if I'm gonna drink soda I prefer the varieties with actual sugar.

 

[Communicora]

You know who makes the best Ginger Ale and Tonic Water?.. Seagram's.

It's hard to find it in supermarkets, but it's carried in better liquor stores and served on good airlines.

It's far superior to the cheaper and less flavorful Canada Dry or Schweppe's options, but not as silly-expensive as the glass bottles from Q or Fever Tree.

Does anyone want to join my Seagram's Cool Kids Club with me? I'll make us some buttons.

Ha! I was going to say what about Fever Tree and then kept reading. We do buy Seagram's as well. I will send you a SASE for my button.

 

[TP2000]

And your modern state of the art design would be instead of that "upper-middle class suburb in America circa 2019" would be what, exactly?

I would go with Only In SoCal type of architecture; a purposely eclectic mix of Art Deco - Mission Moderne - Hollywood Regency - Streamliner Chic

We're digging stuff out of the 2010's vault here, but SoCal has several upscale entertainment/dining malls that are far more themed and immersive than the new SoDoSoPa version of Downtown Disney, and they all use that distinctive and clearly upscale architecture and surfacings. Whereas Downtown Disney is now using cheap stucco and vinyl.

SoCal natives all know them, but both The Americana and The Grove spring instantly to mind. Irvine Spectrum also comes to mind, but that's a different North African/Iberian style. Those centers have far more expensive architecture, better landscaping and water features, gimmicky yet fun trolley systems all staffed by sharply dressed employees, a grand carousel, etc., etc.

Instead of that more expensive and elaborate concept, TDA has gone for a Anywhere USA SoDoSoPa cheaper version.

The Americana - Glendale, California

The Grove, Los Angeles CA

Meanwhile, TDA is purposely removing the few bits of theme and design that Downtown Disney did have from 2001 that were already cheaper looking than The Americana or Irvine Spectrum, and instead making it even worse.

TDA is now doing this instead!

 

[PiratesMansion]

I would go with Only In SoCal type of architecture; a purposely eclectic mix of Art Deco - Mission Moderne - Hollywood Regency - Streamliner Chic

We're digging stuff out of the 2010's vault here, but SoCal has several upscale entertainment/dining malls that are far more themed and immersive than the new SoDoSoPa version of Downtown Disney, and they all use that distinctive and clearly upscale architecture and surfacings. Whereas Downtown Disney is now using cheap stucco and vinyl.

SoCal natives all know them, but both The Americana and The Grove spring instantly to mind. Irvine Spectrum also comes to mind, but that's a different North African/Iberian style. Those centers have far more expensive architecture, better landscaping and water features, gimmicky yet fun trolley systems all staffed by sharply dressed employees, a grand carousel, etc., etc.

Instead of that more expensive and elaborate concept, TDA has gone for a Anywhere USA SoDoSoPa cheaper version.

The Americana - Glendale, California

The Grove, Los Angeles CA

Meanwhile, TDA is purposely removing the few bits of theme and design that Downtown Disney did have from 2001 that were already cheaper looking than The Americana or Irvine Spectrum, and instead making it even worse.

TDA is now doing this instead!

But let's be honest: if they explicitly pulled from more successful examples, you'd be raking them over the coals for just copying other examples.

They can't win with you at this point.

 

[TP2000]

But let's be honest: if they explicitly pulled from more successful examples, you'd be raking them over the coals for just copying other examples.

They can't win with you at this point.

If this type of outdoor mall is "good enough" for you at the prices Disney charges to be on their property, enjoy it! And let me connect you immediately to a DVC Sales Coordinator to lock in those savings for the next 40 years of your treasured family vacation moments...

But as for me? I get around (and not just with the Beach Boys) and I have high standards for allegedly "upscale" entertainment experiences in the 21st century.

I think this is what SoDoSoPa Downtown Disney should actually be doing with its current rethink and redo...

 

[TP2000]

Now that I've eviscerated the cheap and lazy design standards that TDA now takes towards SoDoSoPa Downtown Disney, I will say there are a few little examples of recent DTD redevelopment that aren't that bad.

The best example is the upcoming Din Tai Fung, which will probably do gangbusters business with the locals at least. They've done an acceptable job of bringing the Din Tai Fung corporate aesthetic to Downtown Disney, and it's a nice looking building as a pleasant blend of traditional Chinese design and modern architecture. But that's because Din Tai Fung already has a solid and aesthetically pleasing corporate identity to work with; this wasn't a WDI design, this was the Din Tain Fung corporate designers just putting their current corporate aesthetic into place on a DTD plot of land. It's like the 21st century version of a 1970's Benihana of Tokyo in the suburbs with the red Torii gate out front, sleek and exotic yet instantly recognizable as a brand.

But this photo below of the upcoming Downtown Disney location of Din Tai Fung should be the bare minimum of design and aesthetic interest for Downtown Disney, not a bold change of pace for the otherwise bland and predictable SoDoSoPa School of Strip Mall Design that TDA has lowered themselves to now.

I would imagine that if TDA had higher design standards for themselves for Downtown Disney, corporate brands like Din Tai Fung would have had to step up a bit and plus up this already pleasant looking design if they wanted to sign a lease on Disneyland Resort property.... Better landscaping, a water feature, stone monumental artwork, gas fired lanterns, etc., etc.

Alas, TDA's current standards aren't high enough to elicit that type of investment from others, so Din Tai Fung phoned it in.

But hell, at least Din Tai Fung called! Because their standard corporate look isn't bad.

 

[Disney Analyst]

If this type of outdoor mall is "good enough" for you at the prices Disney charges to be on their property, enjoy it! And let me connect you immediately to a DVC Sales Coordinator to lock in those savings for the next 40 years of your treasured family vacation moments...

But as for me? I get around (and not just with the Beach Boys) and I have high standards for allegedly "upscale" entertainment experiences in the 21st century.

I think this is what SoDoSoPa Downtown Disney should actually be doing with its current rethink and redo...

Asking this genuinely as I do not know.

Downtown Disney, does the tenant decide the design or Disney? I mean, I assume Disney has to approve a design, but is this something Jazz Kitchen decided and designed, or did Disney force it on them? Does this have anything to do with TDA at all?

 

[DLR92]

Asking this genuinely as I do not know.

Downtown Disney, does the tenant decide the design or Disney? I mean, I assume Disney has to approve a design, but is this something Jazz Kitchen decided and designed, or did Disney force it on them? Does this have anything to do with TDA at all?

I believe both have hearsay what they want.

 

[TP2000]

Asking this genuinely as I do not know.

Downtown Disney, does the tenant decide the design or Disney? I mean, I assume Disney has to approve a design, but is this something Jazz Kitchen decided and designed, or did Disney force it on them? Does this have anything to do with TDA at all?

Downtown Disney's exteriors and common areas are designed by WDI, with store/restaurant signage approved by WDI. The exception are the large anchor tenants who get to put their own branding on their design, but those are few. ESPNZone, House of Blues, Ralph Brennan's, Tortilla Jo's and Rainforest Cafe come to mind from 2001, and now Din Tai Fung falls into that category too. But since those others left or were put out of business, it's really just Jazz Kitchen and now Din Tai Fung. I have to imagine that the leasing contract stipulates that WDI either designs their facility outright, or works closely/supervises with the corporate designers the tenant already uses.

This is the first standalone Din Tai Fung in its own building that I've ever seen. So I'd bet they had WDI do that for them.

TDA acts as a property management firm for the complex. TDA maintains a staff of property managers, business managers, leasing analysts, etc. that manage the Downtown Disney facility and keep the various storefronts full and the tenants humming along. TDA then leverages their existing Resort operational teams to keep the mall running daily; Custodial, Security, parking, horticulture, plumbing/electrical maintenance, etc.

To your point... TDA is the owner/operator of the mall, and they contract out the design and construction work to WDI. TDA sets the bar for what is acceptable for Downtown Disney both aesthetically and operationally, and WDI designs and builds it for them.

TDA, led by the Parks Division executives, could decide that they want to go a very different direction aesthetically and operationally and/or with a different tenant mix for Downtown Disney, and they'd have WDI design and build them whatever they want.

Knowing that, TDA has purposely decided to do this for the 2020's...

 

[NobodyElse]

TDA, led by the Parks Division executives, could decide that they want to go a very different direction aesthetically and operationally and/or with a different tenant mix for Downtown Disney, and they'd have WDI design and build them whatever they want.

Knowing that, TDA has purposely decided to do this for the 2020's...

They didn't want to hurt GardenWalk's feelings.

 

[TP2000]

They didn't want to hurt GardenWalk's feelings.

It was sweet of them in TDA, really. Because these guys are sensitive...

 

[TP2000]

Speaking of the other luxury outdoor malls around SoCal that are far more themed and "immersive" than Downtown Disney... It makes me wonder who designed those complexes for their owners? It wasn't WDI, so who was it?

Just the designs of all the interesting fountains and water sculptures they have at Irvine Spectrum in their Moorish/Iberian themed courtyards has me wondering who designed the swanky complex for them?

And someone designed the vintage trolley system at The Americana and the vintage double-decker streetcars at The Grove. It wasn't WDI, but both designs look elaborate and vintage and with obvious modern running gear and ADA amenities onboard. Someone even designed the very sharp and formal motorman uniforms the operators wear, but not WDI.

These are modern trolley systems working in congested pedestrian environments, which is another way to say "theme park". Someone dreamed up, designed, and built these systems for these malls and it wasn't WDI.

 

[Consumer]

The Americana trolley was designed by a former Imagineer, actually.

 

[TP2000]

The Americana trolley was designed by a former Imagineer, actually.

Really?! That makes sense actually, because The Americana is just a stone's throw away from the WDI campus.

I Googled after you typed that, and it turns out that the trolley systems at both The Grove and The Americana were made by the same manufacturer, Gomaco Trolley Company, and they are based in Iowa. They've done dozens of trolleys for malls and tourist railways around the world; and they specialize in making brand new modern trolleys that match historic designs and aesthetics perfectly. Very impressive stuff for the projects they did that recreated old designs for historic railways!

But I think their best design work is at The Americana, because they weren't trying to recreate an actual 1915 design, they were doing a fanciful version of what 21st century folks think a 1915 trolley should look like. This isn't really historically accurate, but it sure looks great in the 21st century!

Gomaco Trolley Company: Gomaco Trolley Styles

 

[Consumer]

Really?! That makes sense actually, because The Americana is just a stone's throw away from the WDI campus.

I Googled after you typed that, and it turns out that the trolley systems at both The Grove and The Americana were made by the same manufacturer, Gomaco Trolley Company, and they are based in Iowa. They've done dozens of trolleys for malls and tourist railways around the world; and they specialize in making brand new modern trolleys that match historic designs and aesthetics perfectly. Very impressive stuff for the projects they did that recreated old designs for historic railways!

But I think their best design work is at The Americana, because they weren't trying to recreate an actual 1915 design, they were doing a fanciful version of what 21st century folks think a 1915 trolley should look like. This isn't really historically accurate, but it sure looks great in the 21st century!

Gomaco Trolley Company: Gomaco Trolley Styles

Now I'm curious, when did the Americana get rid of the second trolley car? I was just there in December and there was only one.

 

[TP2000]

Now I'm curious, when did the Americana get rid of the second trolley car? I was just there in December and there was only one.

I've only been there a few times pre-Covid, but it seems to come and go based on crowds/demand. They can run several single trolleys, or run a few singles and one double, or run double-doubles.

Or maybe it was because it was December. All the ribbons and garland they put on the trolleys for Christmas might make them too heavy to run the double-cars! (Only half joking)