News Reedy Creek Improvement District and the Central Florida Tourism Oversight District

Cliff

Well-Known Member
I think we're really talking about (at least) 4 separate issues here:

(1) Was the perk of park passes & discounts somehow an inappropriate/illegal deal with Disney?
I don't think so, for reasons that others have already addressed at length. It certainly wasn't illegal.

(2) Is a costly entertainment-based perk an appropriate expenditure by a government employer spending taxpayer money?
That's definitely a fair question and I think the answer is going to depend on the circumstances. Like any government expenditure, the guess the question is whether the particular perk provides reasonable value to the taxpayers for the money spent, because it's their money.
So in this case I think the determinative circumstance is what many here keep pointing out but I feel like ranting about a bit: the vast majority of the taxes are paid by Disney, a long list of businesses leasing from Disney, and a small number of businesses that own the land on which they're operating. Those businesses are obviously there because Disney is there, not just because Disney built the area up in the past, but because they get access to the tourists who come to Disney now and in the future. People keep saying 'taxpayer money' as if we're talking about average homeowners who might not know their government is offering expensive perks, or who feel powerless to do or say anything about it, but that's not who we're talking about.
The 'taxpayers' here are basically Disney and the businesses that have decided the higher taxes incurred by being within the district are justified by the income they make by being part of the Disney resort. The perk we're talking about was never a secret; in fact I understand that some of the other taxpayers use the same program to give the same perk to their own employees.
And BTW, some of those other business owners (the 'taxpayers') have attended district board meetings this year to express worries about potential tax increases. Their concerns were most definitely not related to the actions of the prior board or Disney.
Lastly, it shouldn't have to be repeated but while I'm here and feeling ranty: no one outside the district is contributing to the district taxes, plus Disney and the other district taxpayers pay county taxes, in addition to the district taxes, at the same rate as everyone else in their respective counties.

(3) However you feel about (1) & (2), did it make sense for the district to blindside their employees and pensioners by suddenly cancelling this perk without any notice or discussion, and obviously without any analysis of the potential impact?
I don't think anyone here is arguing that the district wasn't entitled to cancel it.
People may disagree about whether it was unfair, but there's a pretty good argument to be made that it was just plain dumb. This perk was worth a lot of amount of money to a lot of employees, relied upon for decades in some cases, and it's been a significant piece of the district's ability to attract and retain employees.
Even assuming, as I do, that their decision was really about impugning Disney and f#@% the employees, their failure to consider that they might anger the firefighters, whose goodwill they've been cultivating, still screams just plain dumb. The fact that they're now scrambling to convince people they can find a solution, while smack in the middle of finalizing the budget, confirms that they didn't assess the potential consequences of the decision before they made it, weren't qualified to make the assessment in the first place, and/or didn't actually care about the consequences until they got bad press in the form of distressed firefighters.

(4) Can they fix this?
I don't think they can. They won't backtrack because they won't admit there was nothing inappropriate or illegal about the program.
Any replacement they do offer may please employees who weren't using the park pass program, but it will still leave many people feeling angry and betrayed, probably cost more than the old program, and create new complications because they scrambled for a fix without properly assessing all the ramifications.

Wow, this ended up way longer than I expected and I apologize to all because I'm really just rehashing what others have said.

My main point is that there are multiple interrelated but quite distinct issues here. I think that conflating them makes it easier for the bad actors to mislead, while making it harder for genuinely curious people to assess the information they find.

*** I'm mostly just seeking information too and many of you know a lot more about this situation than I do, so everyone please tell me if I've gotten something wrong, or if I'm just generally not making sense :) ***
With Disney being the (vast) majority tax payer of the district. Yeah,...you are right, this put's the ethics of this in...I dunno,....an "odd" or "unusual" or "rare" circumstance??

In any other municipality, like,...I dunno....Anaheim, (or any other US city) this would be a massive "no no" and a clear conflict of interest. Could you imagine Anaheim giving their firefighters free annual passes to Disneyland? How about free hotel nights for their police to Disney's Grand Californian or Disneyland Hotel?

This might be a legitimate "rules for thee...but not for me" circumstance.

But,..the way this crazy district was setup in the late 60's....I guess it would be OK to look the other way on this one.

Let's just hope this is the ONLY conflict of interest that is ever discovered. (Florida's IG is digging now)

If this is the worst thing we have to worry about?.....than no big deal....carry on...as you were...
 

Isamar

Well-Known Member
With Disney being the (vast) majority tax payer of the district. Yeah,...you are right, this put's the ethics of this in...I dunno,....an "odd" or "unusual" or "rare" circumstance??

In any other municipality, like,...I dunno....Anaheim, (or any other US city) this would be a massive "no no" and a clear conflict of interest. Could you imagine Anaheim giving their firefighters free annual passes to Disneyland? How about free hotel nights for their police to Disney's Grand Californian or Disneyland Hotel?

This might be a legitimate "rules for thee...but not for me" circumstance.

But,..the way this crazy district was setup in the late 60's....I guess it would be OK to look the other way on this one.

Let's just hope this is the ONLY conflict of interest that is ever discovered. (Florida's IG is digging now)

If this is the worst thing we have to worry about?.....than no big deal....carry on...as you were...

I've done my ranting for today, so I'll just say that I heartily disagree with every single bit of this.
 

castlecake2.0

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
With Disney being the (vast) majority tax payer of the district. Yeah,...you are right, this put's the ethics of this in...I dunno,....an "odd" or "unusual" or "rare" circumstance??

In any other municipality, like,...I dunno....Anaheim, (or any other US city) this would be a massive "no no" and a clear conflict of interest. Could you imagine Anaheim giving their firefighters free annual passes to Disneyland? How about free hotel nights for their police to Disney's Grand Californian or Disneyland Hotel?

This might be a legitimate "rules for thee...but not for me" circumstance.

But,..the way this crazy district was setup in the late 60's....I guess it would be OK to look the other way on this one.

Let's just hope this is the ONLY conflict of interest that is ever discovered. (Florida's IG is digging now)

If this is the worst thing we have to worry about?.....than no big deal....carry on...as you were...
Anaheim is a publicly elected municipality, not a special taxing district
 

GCTales

Well-Known Member
My complaint is this: I live in the Miami area. I would NOT want to see the city of Miami spending millions and millions of dollars by giving government employees Miami Dolphins season tickets and event Hard Rock stadium game/concert tickets as "perks". The Hard Rock Stadium is a large business that should not be "favored" by it's local government with a constant flow of millions in automatic ticket sales....purchased by the city. It's just bad optics

Yes,...I feel for the firefighters. I know it's nice to have their local government buying millions of dollars worth of tickets for them. I get it. I wish my employer would pay for my annual pass!! I think private companies can do this....OK...but NOT public governments. Would it be OK for the Orange County property tax appraisers to receive free gifts/perks from the very properties/companies that he manages property tax on? If he were given a week of free hotel rooms on the property that is being tax assessed? See?

But let's face it,....if any other city or county government in the US were spending millions of dollars on a company inside it's jurisdiction like this...and giving free goods and services from that company to their government employees? Yeah,...no. The city YOU live in would also be scrutinized for this too.

I LOVE the firefighters...I really do!!!!....bud sadly,...this is bad optics no matter what city you live in.
You mean like discounts that employees of Miami-Dade County are eligible to receive?

Miami-Dade Employee Discount

Or those of LA county?
LA County Employee Discounts

Both are partially funded by the local governments. In fact, nearly any organization can buy in.

Nothing nefarious, underhanded, illegal about it.
 

mkt

Disney's Favorite Scumbag™
Premium Member
Good catch! You are right, it's on the boader.

@GCTales - At what what point do government perks or gifts or benifits with private companies become a problem? If this situation is not nefarious (and I'm OK with that) then at what point "can" it morph into that?

Where is the proper ethical line that should not be crossed between government and private business dealings?

(Again, I'm OK with these particular firefighters getting this perk...but I would be against the city of Orlando or Orange county or doing it or Anaheim...etc)

This "perk" thing can be a slippery sloap...or maybe not for some???

I know you want there to be something nefarious going on, but there isn't: These are pretty standard benefits that employers offer to attract and retain talent.

If my employer - that's not based in Florida, and has no operations in Florida- can offer its employees deep DEEP discounts on Disney tickets that no one else can touch (short of giving free admission), then it makes sense to me that Reedy Creek should offer free or deeply discounted admission to its employees many of who work daily on Disney property (just like the many other employers that operate on the district)
 
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mikejs78

Premium Member
Good catch! You are right, it's on the boader.

@GCTales - At what what point do government perks or gifts or benifits with private companies become a problem? If this situation is not nefarious (and I'm OK with that) then at what point "can" it morph into that?

Where is the proper ethical line that should not be crossed between government and private business dealings?

(Again, I'm OK with these particular firefighters getting this perk...but I would be against the city of Orlando or Orange county or doing it or Anaheim...etc)

This "perk" thing can be a slippery sloap...or maybe not for some???
It doesn't. As long as the government entity is purchasing things available to other businesses, it's fine. Where it would be a problem is if a company *gave* something to the government (a gift) or gave discounts to a particular city or municipality if they were only available to that city or municipality.

In these cases, the governments (including Reedy Creek) are purchasing something for their employees that is available at the same rate to any business within the district that wants it.

The law is pretty clear on this. A perk that is purchased by the government is fine. A gift given by a company to a government is not.

You are free to believe that governments shouldn't be spending their money on this. That is legitimate political position. But there is nothing under handed, illegal, unethical about it by any standards that we have out there
 

JoeCamel

Well-Known Member
Good catch! You are right, it's on the boader.

@GCTales - At what what point do government perks or gifts or benifits with private companies become a problem? If this situation is not nefarious (and I'm OK with that) then at what point "can" it morph into that?

Where is the proper ethical line that should not be crossed between government and private business dealings?

(Again, I'm OK with these particular firefighters getting this perk...but I would be against the city of Orlando or Orange county or doing it or Anaheim...etc)

This "perk" thing can be a slippery sloap...or maybe not for some???
How about if the g'mnt is purchasing uniforms for their employees to wear, are they allowed to choose which company they award the contract to? Who supplies the school lunch programs or any other thing they buy in the normal course of business? This is just another purchase the g'mnt choose to award their employees like a pay raise, time off etc. Just another expense and while Disney does sell tickets to this block they also don't play favorites who they sell to
 

mkt

Disney's Favorite Scumbag™
Premium Member
Just another expense and while Disney does sell tickets to this block they also don't play favorites who they sell to
It seems to be limited to entities that employ people on their property and within RCID as far as free admission goes.

However, they do offer discounted tickets to almost any employer through various programs.

If Disney were really struggling, they could offer slightly discounted payroll deducted APs as a work benefit to large local area employers, and honestly... I'd see that benefit being EXTREMELY popular.
 

Figgy1

Premium Member
So, and hear me out: what if in a specific jurisdiction, the single largest taxpayer which represents close to 90% of all tax revenues agrees to spending on one specific benefit for the public employees of that jurisdiction?
As I've said before, I've been following the meetings since this mess started and have yet to hear anything from the other tax payers complaining about this
 

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