Mapping the changes...

[jt04]

I know the parade storage facilities are located behind Frontierland. I was just wondering if there were other reasons why.

I know it's been this way for nearly 40 years, but it's still strange to me that MK runs parades full of princesses through Frontierland. It seems that just about every other MK-style park runs their parades through Fantasyland. I think jt04 might have already said this, but I was wondering if it was outside the realm of possibility for the walkways in the FLE to be built wide enough to accomodate a parade at some point in the future.

In my mind, the parade route looks like this: The parade runs up Main Street as normal, but takes a left and goes the long way around the Hub and in front of the Castle, making another left towards Fantasyland on the bridge that runs next to Cosmic Ray's. (This idea would obviously work better is Mad Tea Party weren't in this location anymore. It might not even be possible unless that attraction were moved.) I see the parade moving past dueling Dumbos and exiting between the new Little Mermaid ride and whatever is going to replace the TTF tents.

Do I think we'll see a new parade route by 2013. No. I am just doing some speculative reimagineering here. It just drives me nuts that the parades, especially the MK parades, take their characters totally out of context. It just doesn't make sense to slap Winnie the Pooh, Cinderella and Cruella de Vil on the same float and then run that float right through a frontier town. If they're going to design parades that way, at least they could run it through Fantasyland! Of course, I'd like to see better parades regardless of the parade route.

Agreed 100% and the lack of response by anyone indicates to me there is no good reason it could not be done as you suggest. Even the tea cups do not create the extreme bottleneck that Liberty Square does.

Plus there would be an amazing fringe benefit in that Liberty Square could be turned into the "Square" it was originally intended to be. That in and of itself is reason enough to reroute the parade. Also, it would lengthen the route and allow for better viewing for all.

 

[SeaCastle]

Agreed 100% and the lack of response by anyone indicates to me there is no good reason it could not be done as you suggest. Even the tea cups do not create the extreme bottleneck that Liberty Square does.

Plus there would be an amazing fringe benefit in that Liberty Square could be turned into the "Square" it was originally intended to be. That in and of itself is reason enough to reroute the parade. Also, it would lengthen the route and allow for better viewing for all.

This route, in practice, possible- as the Jim Hill article below reports. However, the article the following week says that Routing a parade via Fantasyland is too much of an operational nightmare, mainly due to the lack of storage facilities on that side of the park.

The Magic Kingdom designers specifically designed the MK to have parades go through Liberty Square and Frontierland, not Fantasyland. Thus, I don't understand your comment that re-routing the parade would give Liberty Square the opportunity to be the "Square it was originally intended to be" if the parade was originally intended to go through Liberty Square.

http://jimhillmedia.com/editor_in_c...rily-reroute-the-dreams-come-true-parade.aspx

http://jimhillmedia.com/editor_in_c...on-of-the-disney-dreams-come-true-parade.aspx

 

[TP2000]

The Magic Kingdom designers specifically designed the MK to have parades go through Liberty Square and Frontierland, not Fantasyland. Thus, I don't understand your comment that re-routing the parade would give Liberty Square the opportunity to be the "Square it was originally intended to be" if the parade was originally intended to go through Liberty Square.

I didn't understand that assertion about Liberty Square either. WDI purposely designed the Magic Kingdom from scratch to route the parade through Liberty Square and Frontierland.

The Disneyland parade route went through Frontierland, on roughly the same dogleg path as the current WDW route, into the 1960's. However, when Small World was installed in 1966 they built the wide Small World Mall area and permanently re-routed the parades on a direct north-south route past the Matterhorn and through Fantasyland.

Parade Beginning at Small World Mall - Disneyland

That change was made at Disneyland in 1966, five years before the Magic Kingdom was opened and at a time when the plans for Magic Kingdom were nothing more than a cut and paste copy of Disneyland plopped onto the Florida Project maps as Walt and his team obsessed over EPCOT and the jetport and the showcase industrial parks and housing linked by PeopleMovers that Walt all wanted for his Florida Project.

Check out this pic of Walt in the Florida Project map room in October, 1966 (two months before he passed) and see Disneyland circa 1966 plopped above his shoulder. There's New Orleans Square, and the Haunted Mansion across from the Sailing Ship Columbia harbor, with the Indian Village beyond! Now, where did I put my confirmation number for my reservation at the Spanish Colonial Motel... http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_kcOhS_A3tnc/SC3j2lkMAvI/AAAAAAAAAAY/KIiwOlsNZ1U/s1600-h/walt_at_map_bw.jpg

At some point in the late 1960's, when they'd actually started preliminary design work on the Magic Kingdom long after Walt had died, the Imagineers purposely sent the parade route through Liberty Square. Routing the parade through Liberty Square wasn't a compromise. It was done on purpose.

.

 

[RAXIP]

Oh there are so many reasons why a Fanstyland routed parade wouldn't work. And I took the liberty of making a few diagrams.

The first shows issues w/ the route in the park. The blue line represent the width of the parade route. The green, yellow and red areas represent the amount of parade viewing area. The green areas are as wide as the Main Street sidewalks. Yellow areas have limited viewing space, such as part of Liberty Square and red areas have no viewing area on the parade route (such as the Liberty Square bridge).

Routing the parade across the Tomorrowland/Fantsyland bridge substantially increase the red & yellow zones. Both on the hub and the again by the Tea Cups, if the parade could even fit by, w/o having to move the Speedway.

The second shows the issues with backstage infrastructure of a Fantasyland bound parade. It would require massive backstage expansion to create a backstage circuit for the parade, like the one that currently exists (green route)

Is it possible to change the parade route, most likely yes. Do the advantages of a new route out way the substantial cost and modifications to the park both onstage and backstage, no.

 

[SeaCastle]

I didn't understand that assertion about Liberty Square either. WDI purposely designed the Magic Kingdom from scratch to route the parade through Liberty Square and Frontierland.

The Disneyland parade route went through Frontierland, on roughly the same dogleg path as the current WDW route, into the 1960's. However, when Small World was installed in 1966 they built the wide Small World Mall area and permanently re-routed the parades on a direct north-south route past the Matterhorn and through Fantasyland.

That change was made at Disneyland in 1966, five years before the Magic Kingdom was opened and at a time when the plans for Magic Kingdom were nothing more than a cut and paste copy of Disneyland plopped onto the Florida Project maps as Walt and his team obsessed over EPCOT and the jetport and the showcase industrial parks and housing linked by PeopleMovers that Walt all wanted for his Florida Project.

Check out this pic of Walt in the Florida Project map room in October, 1966 (two months before he passed) and see Disneyland circa 1966 plopped above his shoulder. There's New Orleans Square, and the Haunted Mansion across from the Sailing Ship Columbia harbor, with the Indian Village beyond! Now, where did I put my confirmation number for my reservation at the Spanish Colonial Motel... http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_kcOhS_A3tnc/SC3j2lkMAvI/AAAAAAAAAAY/KIiwOlsNZ1U/s1600-h/walt_at_map_bw.jpg

At some point in the late 1960's, when they'd actually started preliminary design work on the Magic Kingdom long after Walt had died, the Imagineers purposely sent the parade route through Liberty Square. Routing the parade through Liberty Square wasn't a compromise. It was done on purpose.

.

Thanks for the post...after I had written mine, I was trying to recall Disneyland's parade route.

If I remember correctly, the Small World mall still retains most of the infrastructure built for Light Magic, the ill-conceived and short lived Disneyland parade. I'd be intereted in seeing a '60's vs. '11 parade route overlay. Certainly with all of the development Disneyland has seen over the past 55 years, the parade route may not even be possible today. Also worth mentioning are the purposefully-designed wide avenues of the MK compared to the intimate lanes of Disneyland. It's interesting how radically different the layouts of the parks are, while being essentially the same.

 

[jt04]

I didn't understand that assertion about Liberty Square either. WDI purposely designed the Magic Kingdom from scratch to route the parade through Liberty Square and Frontierland.

I believe that "Passport to Dreams" blog has a blueprint that indicates otherwise. And no I won't find it for you. Since it is such an amazing site it would be worth your time to find it yourself. Like finding treasure.

The Disneyland parade route went through Frontierland, on roughly the same dogleg path as the current WDW route, into the 1960's. However, when Small World was installed in 1966 they built the wide Small World Mall area and permanently re-routed the parades on a direct north-south route past the Matterhorn and through Fantasyland.

Parade Beginning at Small World Mall - Disneyland

That change was made at Disneyland in 1966, five years before the Magic Kingdom was opened and at a time when the plans for Magic Kingdom were nothing more than a cut and paste copy of Disneyland plopped onto the Florida Project maps as Walt and his team obsessed over EPCOT and the jetport and the showcase industrial parks and housing linked by PeopleMovers that Walt all wanted for his Florida Project.

Check out this pic of Walt in the Florida Project map room in October, 1966 (two months before he passed) and see Disneyland circa 1966 plopped above his shoulder. There's New Orleans Square, and the Haunted Mansion across from the Sailing Ship Columbia harbor, with the Indian Village beyond! Now, where did I put my confirmation number for my reservation at the Spanish Colonial Motel... http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_kcOhS_A3tnc/SC3j2lkMAvI/AAAAAAAAAAY/KIiwOlsNZ1U/s1600-h/walt_at_map_bw.jpg

At some point in the late 1960's, when they'd actually started preliminary design work on the Magic Kingdom long after Walt had died, the Imagineers purposely sent the parade route through Liberty Square. Routing the parade through Liberty Square wasn't a compromise. It was done on purpose.

I agree that they did it on purpose because it is doubtful it ended up like that by chance. :lookaroun

.

Oh there are so many reasons why a Fanstyland routed parade wouldn't work. And I took the liberty of making a few diagrams.

The first shows issues w/ the route in the park. The blue line represent the width of the parade route. The green, yellow and red areas represent the amount of parade viewing area. The green areas are as wide as the Main Street sidewalks. Yellow areas have limited viewing space, such as part of Liberty Square and red areas have no viewing area on the parade route (such as the Liberty Square bridge).

Routing the parade across the Tomorrowland/Fantsyland bridge substantially increase the red & yellow zones. Both on the hub and the again by the Tea Cups, if the parade could even fit by, w/o having to move the Speedway.

The second shows the issues with backstage infrastructure of a Fantasyland bound parade. It would require massive backstage expansion to create a backstage circuit for the parade, like the one that currently exists (green route)

Is it possible to change the parade route, most likely yes. Do the advantages of a new route out way the substantial cost and modifications to the park both onstage and backstage, no.

Nice work. Really. But are the color schemes based on your memory/opinion or do you have some detailed schematics?

Anyway, I have a feeling if they did this the parade route would proceed west after the teacups then north towards BatB/Mermaid and back towards the current TTF area before going backstage. Then the parade would reverse itself for the next run where it would go to the traditional backstage area. So, in this scenario, they would only need a new storage building on the north side of the MK. It really is a simple solution and I am not saying it will happen. Just that it would be nice.

 

[SeaCastle]

I believe that "Passport to Dreams" blog has a blueprint that indicates otherwise. And no I won't find it for you. Since it is such an amazing site it would be worth your time to find it yourself. Like finding treasure.

I will wholeheartedly vouch for Passport to Dreams, there simply is no other blog that comes close to discussing aspects of WDW in that capacity. For the sake of the discussion at hand, I have included the blueprint here:

The parade access road onto Main Street is clearly visible, and the path from Main Street to the armchair-Imagineered parade warehouse is even more convoluted than the one we have today. The blueprint is pretty faded, so it's impossible to determine what the planned backstage layout was (with the above image being a January 1971 site plan), but to me it's pretty obvious the parade route was still through Liberty Square.

 

[AlishaMisha]

Okay, one big reason this would not happen (I don't think anyone mentioned this before), is because there are scanners embedded in the pavement to keep track of floats. They would have to dig the new part of the route up to install them.

 

[TP2000]

Thanks for the post...after I had written mine, I was trying to recall Disneyland's parade route.

If I remember correctly, the Small World mall still retains most of the infrastructure built for Light Magic, the ill-conceived and short lived Disneyland parade. I'd be intereted in seeing a '60's vs. '11 parade route overlay. Certainly with all of the development Disneyland has seen over the past 55 years, the parade route may not even be possible today. Also worth mentioning are the purposefully-designed wide avenues of the MK compared to the intimate lanes of Disneyland. It's interesting how radically different the layouts of the parks are, while being essentially the same.

Oh, gosh no, it would be a total disaster if they rerouted the Disneyland parade route back through Frontierland, New Orleans Square, and what is now Critter Country. Most of today's big floats wouldn't even fit, but the gradients they added in the early 1990's for the Fantasmic! viewing area and the bridge over the Splash Mountain flumes in '89 near the canoe dock would pretty much rule out anything bigger than a very small float from getting through there. And the viewing area would be a disaster, especially at Christmas when the Haunted Mansion Holiday queue is going full tilt.

The Light Magic towers, and the terraced parade viewing built in the Small World mall continue to pay big dividends almost 15 years after Light Magic was cancelled. And by cancelled I mean "On Hiatus For Artistic Enhancements" as the press release from '97 said.

They use those towers not just for parade audio and lighting, but also to house the digital projectors that display the cool Christmas show every 15 minutes after sundown on the Small World facade when it's dressed up as Small World Holiday.

This nifty 90 second night show every 15 minutes wouldn't be possible without those Light Magic Towers (or at least it would require bulky equipment hidden behind temporary structures). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kCbSVZ3q96M (Christmas show begins after regular Clock Show ends 30 seconds in)

That's one thing I think Magic Kingdom could learn from Disneyland, now that it's a very mature park entering middle age at it's 40th anniversary; how to layer experiences and attractions over each other so it's not just one huge walkway leading to one attraction, and then one shop, and then one restaurant, and then one more attraction, etc., etc. Layers of experiences and entertainment make Disneyland what it is, and the WDW parks have something to learn there in my humble opinion.

 

[MickeyMind]

WHOA WHY IS DUMBO'S CIRCUSLAND GETTING SO MUCH ROOM?

I would be fine with having the dumbo ride and queue, but the dumbo ride plus all the tents, seriously does dumbo need to take up all that valuable space?

They have more than enough room to make a toontown, and to sacrifice the 5 for a cheap looking dumbo circus land, just does NOT make sense to me.
Every MK style park has a toontown (except for hk disneyland I think) Why shouldnt the most visited of all the mk parks not have mickey's house and a fully fledged toontown? Hopefully they've reworked their plans to include a toontown because I just dont see how they can think getting rid of it all together would be a good decision. Toontown is universally appealing, boys, girls, grandma and uncle bill would all like to visit it. Seriously Disney, your making a huge mistake if you get rid of toontown and dont build another.

 

[jt04]

I will wholeheartedly vouch for Passport to Dreams, there simply is no other blog that comes close to discussing aspects of WDW in that capacity. For the sake of the discussion at hand, I have included the blueprint here:

The parade access road onto Main Street is clearly visible, and the path from Main Street to the armchair-Imagineered parade warehouse is even more convoluted than the one we have today. The blueprint is pretty faded, so it's impossible to determine what the planned backstage layout was (with the above image being a January 1971 site plan), but to me it's pretty obvious the parade route was still through Liberty Square.

That is not what I was refering to. There is a story of how there was an original plan to have a structure that would have made a parade going through Liberty Square impossible. That structure was ultimately removed from the original plan, likely happened once they decided to route the parade as it is today. There were several shortsighted decisions made during this time that were all panic driven because of finances. This was likely part of that.

PS- in this instance a "convoluted" parade route would be desireable as it would add substantially to viewing areas which the MK really needs. And will even more when the FLE opens.

 

[SeaCastle]

That is not what I was refering to. There is a story of how there was an original plan to have a structure that would have made a parade going through Liberty Square impossible. That structure was ultimately removed from the original plan, likely happened once they decided to route the parade as it is today. There were several shortsighted decisions made during this time that were all panic driven because of finances. This was likely part of that.

PS- in this instance a "convoluted" parade route would be desireable as it would add substantially to viewing areas which the MK really needs. And will even more when the FLE opens.

Ah, I remember now...the Liberty Square Market. Sorry about the confusion. The area where the Market was supposed to go is now the site of the Liberty Bell area. However, whether or not the structure was built is irrelevant, as the blueprint below shows:

http://passport2dreams.blogspot.com/2008/05/park-mysteries-6.html

http://passport2dreams.blogspot.com/2009/06/park-mystery-history-lesson.html

 

[marni1971]

Every MK style park has a toontown (except for hk disneyland I think)

Neither does Paris.

For the record, plans show the Liberty Square structure as late as April 1971.

 

[KaliSplash]

Guys,

It seems to me one reason NOT to change the route is the current route allows you to get almost completely AROUND the MK DURING a parade. Go up the right side of Main Street, cut over to Tomorrowland, out to Fantasyland, down to Liberty Square and then use the bridges along the Rivers of America to get over to Splash Mountain and Big Thunder Mountain. The only area you can't get to without crossing the parade route is Adventureland. Routing a parade through Fantasyland would cut the park in half.

 

[jt04]

Ah, I remember now...the Liberty Square Market. Sorry about the confusion. The area where the Market was supposed to go is now the site of the Liberty Bell area. However, whether or not the structure was built is irrelevant, as the blueprint below shows:

http://passport2dreams.blogspot.com/2008/05/park-mysteries-6.html

http://passport2dreams.blogspot.com/2009/06/park-mystery-history-lesson.html

For the sake of argument, lets say they did reroute the parade so it no longer traveled through LS. I think Disney could then design a much more effective transition between LS and Frontierland. Similar in effectiveness as the transition from MSUSA and Adventureland or Fantasyland to Liberty Square. But also it would really complete Liberty Square and make it much more effective at creating a sense of place and perfect 'show'. I wouldn't call that irrelevant.

 

[SeaCastle]

For the sake of argument, lets say they did reroute the parade so it no longer traveled through LS. I think Disney could then design a much more effective transition between LS and Frontierland. Similar in effectiveness as the transition from MSUSA and Adventureland or Fantasyland to Liberty Square. But also it would really complete Liberty Square and make it much more effective at creating a sense of place and perfect 'show'. I wouldn't call that irrelevant.

I was calling whether the originally-planned Market Place irrelevant, not place or show, which I agree is totally relevant. In my opinion, the Frontierland/Liberty Square transition is very well done and subtle enough, but I don't think they would need to cut the parade in order to improve on the transition.

That being said, an electric light parade makes no more sense in Fantasyland then it does in Frontierland, but with Disney there is always that suspension of disbelief.

 

[AlishaMisha]

Guys,

It seems to me one reason NOT to change the route is the current route allows you to get almost completely AROUND the MK DURING a parade. Go up the right side of Main Street, cut over to Tomorrowland, out to Fantasyland, down to Liberty Square and then use the bridges along the Rivers of America to get over to Splash Mountain and Big Thunder Mountain. The only area you can't get to without crossing the parade route is Adventureland. Routing a parade through Fantasyland would cut the park in half.

Agreed.

 

[SeaCastle]

That's one thing I think Magic Kingdom could learn from Disneyland, now that it's a very mature park entering middle age at it's 40th anniversary; how to layer experiences and attractions over each other so it's not just one huge walkway leading to one attraction, and then one shop, and then one restaurant, and then one more attraction, etc., etc. Layers of experiences and entertainment make Disneyland what it is, and the WDW parks have something to learn there in my humble opinion.

Though I agree WDW needs more live entertainment like Disneyland has, I believe the "layering" you see at Disneyland is more of a result of its smaller size and the fact that it didn't build a secondary theme park until 46 years after its construction, whereas the Magic Kingdom has seen less development since it has had three more theme parks built on property.

As silly as it sounds, what the Magic Kingdom at WDW needs most is soul, something Disneyland has that the MK lacks. Whether in the form of live entertainment, more Christmas decorations, better maintenance, something to show that somebody cares about the place.

 

[jt04]

Guys,

It seems to me one reason NOT to change the route is the current route allows you to get almost completely AROUND the MK DURING a parade. Go up the right side of Main Street, cut over to Tomorrowland, out to Fantasyland, down to Liberty Square and then use the bridges along the Rivers of America to get over to Splash Mountain and Big Thunder Mountain. The only area you can't get to without crossing the parade route is Adventureland. Routing a parade through Fantasyland would cut the park in half.

You know this is a good point and a parade routed as I suggest would cut off Tomorrowland during the parade. Even moreso than the current parade cuts off Adventureland.

So I came up with a solution. This sounds a bit extreme but it really is not. As part of the FLE expansion just add a short 'pedestrian tunnel' under the path where the parade travels. Somewhere in the vicinity of the current entrance to TTF. It could be built at utilidor level and be nicely themed.

There could also be a walkway added that travels under the castle 'moat bridge' as an alternative if you don't like my first idea.

Problem solved.

 

[AlishaMisha]

Yes, but we are still left with the scanners embedded in the pavement issue.