Jim Hill and Grizz's Call to Arms

[PurpleDragon]

I understand both points of view!! Although I have not read what was said by Grizz that Jim was discussing. I would assume that Grizz's position is that he wants to hang on to some of the bits and pieces of original Land pavilion that we all grew to know and love. Jim on the other hand obvoiusly has the "out with the old, in with the new" philosophy. I must agree with the one point that Jim made about how Epcot should always be exciting and new. Epcots original purpose was that it a be a forever changing window into tomorrow, not the view of tomorrow circa 1982. The Land pavilion does not get near the number of visitors that it used to. I'm no expert, but I can tell when the park is packed and the land pavilion is the best place you can go to get away form the crowds, that that is not exactly a good thing.

But the revamp of the pavilion can be done, and still hang on to the bits and pieces of the pavilion that we all know and love. I think had Jim taken a bit more of an adult approach towards the subject and tried to understand all sides, maybe he would have understood that.

I support the middle road, I agree with both sides and think they can be merged into a good solution. "Bring in the new, but keep the old"

 

[General Grizz]

I would assume that Grizz's position is that he wants to hang on to some of the bits and pieces of original Land pavilion that we all grew to know and love.

You're close.

Here is my stand: If Disney can replace the balloons and fountain with something more symbolic of the Land's meaning (symbiosis, celebration of mother earth and our interaction with it, or even as far as food production) and adding to these overall essences, then Disney should go for it.

If they can replace the Circle of Life, the Sunshine Season Food Fair, and Food Rocks with attractions that directly add to the meaning to the Land (without having to twist its central concepts) and increases guest pleasure, Disney should by all means go for it if that change is better.

I wrote the Calls to Arm as a PREEMPTIVE post and declaration of sentiment of those who support the Land's meaning. This is because we've seen Epcot become disjointed in random attractions and concepts (i.e. where is the essence of "motion" in Test Track and true care for creativity in "Journey into Your Imagination?")

I have not seen the official plans for the pavilion, but these were a series of posts that promoted the preservation of the Land's concepts (which includes the necessary peaceful area). This was *not* an attempt to keep the Land exactly as it is. It is a call to preventing a degrading change to the Land, which the Travel Agency *seems* to present. (But by NO MEANS do I want this project's budget cut. I want it done right).

The way Jim Hill said I was one to red-light the Disneyland Castle Rehab (if I were in power) was off. I like this idea. I like change that adds to the progress of an attraction, pavilion, or atmosphere. (Progress meaning the expanding of the original ideals of what something was built for.)

This has nothing to do with "living in the past" and keeping everything at Walt Disney World exactly the same. Granted, some classic attractions (i.e. Haunted Mansion, CBJ, IASW) should stay put - but they can be technologically improved.

P.S. The Land is still crowded. The Living with the Land Boatride alone gets an average of 14-15,000 people per day, which is just about the same as Test Track or Mission Space.

 

[Gregory]

Welcome to the boards.

I wonder how many of us saw the orginal post that Gregory posted. :animwink:

I'm secretly wondering if you may be Jim.

None of you saw it. I repeat, none of you saw it... :lookaroun

Anyways, I posted it before I read the entire thing (asking that it not to be posted).. I doubt too many people saw it... I feel really bad about that, but I saw Jim replied, and I copied and pasted right away... But, it was up for less than a minute...

Anyways.. I really like that quote:

"Whenever I get on a ride, I'm always looking at how it can be improved." Walt Disney

but note that improved and changed are not the same.

Thats a great point

 

[askmike1]

What wowed us as children may not wow our children.

This is true (at least in my case). My parents, along with most people who grew up with WDW's opening, love such attractions as Tiki Room (old), Horizons, Swiss Family Treehouse, World of Motion, and Mr. Toad more than any other attraction. Although I think all these attractions (except for the Treehouse) are nice, they aren't my 'special' attractions. Attractions that I love more than any others are Tower of Terror, Illuminations: ROE, Philharmagic, Sounds Dangerous, and Dinosaur. Now there's also a middle ground with attractions such as SSE, Splash Mountain, GMR, and Safari (also their are older people who love Rock 'n' Roller Coaster and young kids who love the Treehouse. There is also a difference between Disney-purists (who hate the SSE wand and miss the fountain in front of SSE), and others (who love the wand and could care less about the fountain). Now, does any of this have to do with anything? Probably not, but this thread has drifted so much I really don't know what is 'on-topic' now.

-Michael

 

[PurpleDragon]

I gotcha Grizz, that makes complete sense!! I completely agree with that. Wheres the point of having a pavilion called "The Land" when it is only a gateway into a ride about being in the air? The theme needs to revolve around land (cultivation, conservation, etc...)
You have a completely rational idea, Jim made it out to be something along the lines of keeping the pavilion just as it is, not to change a thing. He must not have read your whole discussion as you said, he must have just skimmed the surface, without reading the details.

Your right about the Land Boatride, but the rest of the pavilion doesn't see that kind of attention, at least not the last few times I have been there. However I normally just avoid the pavilion altogether because the attractions there that I enjoyed vanished back in the 80's refurb.

Kitchen Kabaret, I loved that show!!
Veggie, Veggie, Fruit Fruit!! Veggie, Fruit, Fruit!! LOL :lol:

 

[General Grizz]

I gotcha Grizz, that makes complete sense!! I completely agree with that. Wheres the point of having a pavilion called "The Land" when it is only a gateway into a ride about being in the air? The theme needs to revolve around land (cultivation, conservation, etc...)
You have a completely rational idea, Jim made it out to be something along the lines of keeping the pavilion just as it is, not to change a thing. He must not have read your whole discussion as you said, he must have just skimmed the surface, without reading the details.

Your right about the Land Boatride, but the rest of the pavilion doesn't see that kind of attention, at least not the last few times I have been there. However I normally just avoid the pavilion altogether because the attractions there that I enjoyed vanished back in the 80's refurb.

Kitchen Kabaret, I loved that show!!
Veggie, Veggie, Fruit Fruit!! Veggie, Fruit, Fruit!! LOL :lol:

Agreed. Food Rocks was NOT an improvement of Kitchen Kabaret in my eyes.

That's one show I *really* miss.

 

[PurpleDragon]

Tell me about it. Jim hit the nail on the head calling Food Rocks a "dumbed down" version of the original. When I saw food rocks for the first time I was so ed. I said "they took out Kitchen Kabaret for this crap!!" Hell while we are on the subjects of missed attractions, I miss the original imagination ride, hence my name. But we better not open that can o' worms.

 

[Hakunamatata]

Tell me about it. Jim hit the nail on the head calling Food Rocks a "dumbed down" version of the original. When I saw food rocks for the first time I was so ed. I said "they took out Kitchen Kabaret for this crap!!" Hell while we are on the subjects of missed attractions, I miss the original imagination ride, hence my name. But we better not open that can o' worms.

Those worms are out on a number of other threads.........

 

[speck76]

This is true (at least in my case). My parents, along with most people who grew up with WDW's opening, love such attractions as Tiki Room (old), Horizons, Swiss Family Treehouse, World of Motion, and Mr. Toad more than any other attraction. Although I think all these attractions (except for the Treehouse) are nice, they aren't my 'special' attractions. Attractions that I love more than any others are Tower of Terror, Illuminations: ROE, Philharmagic, Sounds Dangerous, and Dinosaur. Now there's also a middle ground with attractions such as SSE, Splash Mountain, GMR, and Safari (also their are older people who love Rock 'n' Roller Coaster and young kids who love the Treehouse. There is also a difference between Disney-purists (who hate the SSE wand and miss the fountain in front of SSE), and others (who love the wand and could care less about the fountain). Now, does any of this have to do with anything? Probably not, but this thread has drifted so much I really don't know what is 'on-topic' now.

-Michael

Question....can you love a pavilion enough that you are ok with it going away?

I really like Illuminations ROE, I also really liked the original Illuminations. I do not think either version is better than the other, but I enjoy them both. Am I sad that I will never see the original again...yes. Am I upset that it was replaced....not really....I have fond memories of the show, as I do of the new show. Will I be upset when ROE is replaced.....probably not....I enjoy the show, but I am always willing to see something new.

Even though I miss some of the old attractions, I retain great memories of them, and for me at least, that is enough.

 

[SirNim]

The best way to honor past attractions/reincarnations of attractions is to replace them with newer, greater attractions that conform to yet enhance the purpose and ideals of the original.

 

[speck76]

The best way to honor past attractions/reincarnations of attractions is to replace them with newer, greater attractions that conform to yet enhance the purpose and ideals of the original.

How is that progress? If every new attraction is just an enhanced version of the previous, we would never experience anything new.

 

[LewZealand]

Welcome to the boards.

I wonder how many of us saw the orginal post that Gregory posted. :animwink:

I'm secretly wondering if you may be Jim.

Uh...no. I lack a significant amount of weight and body hair to pass as Jim.

 

[Hakunamatata]

Uh...no. I lack a significant amount of weight and body hair to pass as Jim.

Well, if those are the qualifacations, then I am sad to say, I could be he.... :lookaroun , but Im not

 

[KevinPage]

The best way to honor past attractions/reincarnations of attractions is to replace them with newer, greater attractions that conform to yet enhance the purpose and ideals of the original.

Why does everyone feel that you can never stray from the original idea of an attraction/land/pavillon ?

If there is a better idea out there, why not? Should WDI be constrained to only think within the scope of what exists currently?

 

[Scooter]

Tell me about it. Jim hit the nail on the head calling Food Rocks a "dumbed down" version of the original. When I saw food rocks for the first time I was so ed. I said "they took out Kitchen Kabaret for this crap!!"

Again...this is YOUR opinion, not everyones, and I, for one, dissagree.

Need I remind you all that Kitchen Kabaret was replaced with Food Rocks because of poor attendance?

While I will agree that Food Rocks didn't fair much better, I thought the upgraded version, Food Rocks was MUCH better.

The songs that were parodied were at least songs that adults identified with. The original show featured songs geared for small children which forced the adults to sit through it with blatant disregard. I can't tell you how I cringed when I heard the lyrics "Veggie Veggie Fruit Fruit...Veggie Fruit Fruit."

I took my children to Kitchen Kaberet ONCE and never went back again as I'm sure alot of others did.

I applaud Disney for trying to bring the subject of good nutrition up and attempting to make it interesting to both children AND adults.

Unfortunately, the bottom line is this...people obviously did not want to spend their vacation time being lectured about good nutrition.

Perhaps it was because they usually left the show and then procedded to pig out on Burgers and Fries, Baked Potatos with Sour Cream and Butter, and Bar-B-que Chicken after they left this "Good Nutrition" show and preceeded to the Sunshne Food Fair for Lunch/Dinner.

I guess they wanted a Disney vacation trip...not a guilt trip. :lol:

 

[SirNim]

My statement, of course, refers to Epcot pavilion attractions. If you close something, you sure as heck better have a replacement that furthers the purpose of the pavilion. (JIYIWF anyone?)

Referring to Magic Kingdom and other attractions, the new attraction should be as entertaining and should advance the boundaries of Imagineering.

Simple.

 

[General Grizz]

My statement, of course, refers to Epcot pavilion attractions. If you close something, you sure as heck better have a replacement that furthers the purpose of the pavilion. (JIYIWF anyone?)

Referring to Magic Kingdom and other attractions, the new attraction should be as entertaining and should advance the boundaries of Imagineering.

Simple.

Bingo. (Are you sure you're 16??! )

 

[SirNim]

I'm sure, Grizz.... :lol:

That's as simple as it gets...

 

[Gregory]

Are you sure you're 16??!

I think that every time I see something SirNim's done... lol... Bens amazing!

 

[askmike1]

Again...this is YOUR opinion, not everyones, and I, for one, dissagree.

Need I remind you all that Kitchen Kabaret was replaced with Food Rocks because of poor attendance?

While I will agree that Food Rocks didn't fair much better, I thought the upgraded version, Food Rocks was MUCH better.

The songs that were parodied were at least songs that adults identified with. The original show featured songs geared for small children which forced the adults to sit through it with blatant disregard. I can't tell you how I cringed when I heard the lyrics "Veggie Veggie Fruit Fruit...Veggie Fruit Fruit."

I took my children to Kitchen Kaberet ONCE and never went back again as I'm sure alot of others did.

I applaud Disney for trying to bring the subject of good nutrition up and attempting to make it interesting to both children AND adults.
...

Well said. Personally, I love Food Rocks much better than KK. Regardless of the animatronics, the music was much better in Food Rocks. (I especially love that last song). In Food Rocks, they both educated and entertained.

-Michael