Is attendance really down at WDW this or…

[LSLS]

No, I actually don’t need to cite to specific numbers to know it has been busy. All I need is to see all the people there and the lengths of the lines for the attractions, all of which I have seen with my own two eyes.

That said, I do agree that when the numbers are released it will be very interesting to see.

So then your definition of busy doesn't actually involve the number of people in the parks, it's more about how long the lines are for attractions. It very much could feel busy (as I've stated a bunch, my July 4th trip was the most dead I've ever seen the parks, but I have no real reference outside that one week), but I'm not sure it feeling busy makes it busy, which is why I'm asking for your definition. If McDonald's has 700 customers who wait an average of 30 seconds for their food one day, and then 400 customers who wait an average of 2 minutes for their food the next day, was the second day busier because the line was longer? Or was the first day busier because it had more people going through?

The parks will still feel busy and have long lines even if they are down 5-10%. Judging from all the discounts, people choosing to stay off-site and the availability of dining tells me that people still want to go the parks. But are cutting back on resort stays and dining to save money.

I totally believe it can feel busy, I simply took issue with it being said as a fact without even knowing what is being measured. I do wonder how many are even staying off site as well. I've seen the springs hotels under $100, and the 192 ones as low as $35. I honestly just have no idea what's going on. All the evidence to me shows it should be less busy other than wait times for attractions.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

The parks will still feel busy and have long lines even if they are down 5-10%. Judging from all the discounts, people choosing to stay off-site and the availability of dining tells me that people still want to go the parks. But are cutting back on resort stays and dining to save money.

The reason they “feel busy” was on purpose from 10-20 years ago. That’s Bob.

But that’s just the rides. That’s not where the money is made.

The estimated gate clicks in 2000 were about 44,000,000…in 2018 I think it was like 58,000,000?!?

And the ride capacity is up Maybe 5-10%?
If that?

This is not really hard math. And of course 100% deliberate…to save costs and then gouge all of us based on THAT decision.

We don’t have to boycott the place…go and have fun. But there’s no sense lying about the how? And the why?

 

[JusticeDisney]

So then your definition of busy doesn't actually involve the number of people in the parks, it's more about how long the lines are for attractions. It very much could feel busy (as I've stated a bunch, my July 4th trip was the most dead I've ever seen the parks, but I have no real reference outside that one week), but I'm not sure it feeling busy makes it busy, which is why I'm asking for your definition. If McDonald's has 700 customers who wait an average of 30 seconds for their food one day, and then 400 customers who wait an average of 2 minutes for their food the next day, was the second day busier because the line was longer? Or was the first day busier because it had more people going through?

I totally believe it can feel busy, I simply took issue with it being said as a fact without even knowing what is being measured. I do wonder how many are even staying off site as well. I've seen the springs hotels under $100, and the 192 ones as low as $35. I honestly just have no idea what's going on. All the evidence to me shows it should be less busy other than wait times for attractions.

No, my definition of busy does mean the actual number of people in the parks, which as I said I was able to observe with my own two eyes. While attendance is no doubt lower, the idea that the parks have consistently been empty is laughable.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

So then your definition of busy doesn't actually involve the number of people in the parks, it's more about how long the lines are for attractions. It very much could feel busy (as I've stated a bunch, my July 4th trip was the most dead I've ever seen the parks, but I have no real reference outside that one week), but I'm not sure it feeling busy makes it busy, which is why I'm asking for your definition. If McDonald's has 700 customers who wait an average of 30 seconds for their food one day, and then 400 customers who wait an average of 2 minutes for their food the next day, was the second day busier because the line was longer? Or was the first day busier because it had more people going through?

I totally believe it can feel busy, I simply took issue with it being said as a fact without even knowing what is being measured. I do wonder how many are even staying off site as well. I've seen the springs hotels under $100, and the 192 ones as low as $35. I honestly just have no idea what's going on. All the evidence to me shows it should be less busy other than wait times for attractions.

Genie posted ride times are absolutely the worst “indicator” of crowd size. They really don’t do that at all in 2023.

But of more direct issue: they also don’t indicate the health of the BUSINESS in the parks.

If there are 90 minutes waits posted on the 6 rides at mgm…but the restaurants are wide open, the gift shops “light” and Pop, AoA and Caribbean are at 80% occupancy…
…the wdw resort is having a “awful” day.

That’s what lower crowds actually does. Doesn’t get you on Peter Pan quickly

And what’s going on is the town is overpriced for the American market…and That’s 80% of its business.
Why? The Covid price gouging at home. You can’t increase the prices of EVERY necessity at home by 200 or 300% in 2 years without it eventually taking a bite out of travel. Travel is always the first thing to go in a recession…it’s disposable without obvious pain and can be “downsized” rather easily.

This is far worse for disney than a recession…it’s more “it’s not that I don’t want it…I just don’t GOT it” with really no relief in site.

 

[TheMaxRebo]

The parks will still feel busy and have long lines even if they are down 5-10%. Judging from all the discounts, people choosing to stay off-site and the availability of dining tells me that people still want to go the parks. But are cutting back on resort stays and dining to save money.

Definitely think with more "extra charges" and just increased pricing people are cutting back in areas .... I know for our August trip we definitely reduced the number of TS meals we did. I think lack of dining plan is also impacting dining availability

While not 2019 or revenge travel levels, parks themselves are still pretty crowded and after hours events/parties still selling out

Just the excitement levels about a WDW trip isn't what it used to be, but people are definitely still going

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Definitely think with more "extra charges" and just increased pricing people are cutting back in areas .... I know for our August trip we definitely reduced the number of TS meals we did. I think lack of dining plan is also impacting dining availability

While not 2019 or revenge travel levels, parks themselves are still pretty crowded and after hours events/parties still selling out

Just the excitement levels about a WDW trip isn't what it used to be, but people are definitely still going

Except the pesky detail is the dining plan is a bait and switch and overpriced…for a lot of the travelers…

 

[monothingie]

Regarding wdw…we have gotten daily…nearly constant reports from the longtime travelers…not to mention people on the ground…of a rather steep and noticeable decline in attendance in the parks and hotels…

What’s really telling is the amount of travel agents who have commented on the booking glut. They “see the future”…as it were and have been 100% consistent.

So my question is: do you not read that…or don’t believe it?

Im being serious…that’s not a loaded question?

Disney has become extremely proactive in trying to influence TAs to push their product. I'm told it's at a level which they had never done before.

Even the dining incentives that they brought back and "Discounts" haven't really moved the needle in terms of bookings, because people see right through them. Even with the "discounts" people STILL see it as wildly out of line with the what they are getting back. Also add in the negative reputation (you pick the reason) that Disney has earned for itself over the last half decade or more, and you have your answer as to why.

Universal has a lot of the sand reports wdw is getting…really noticeable down days…travel agents saying demand is down…

So that is a problem for them

But uni is in active, tangible expansion and has added - frankly - better additions for 10 years…
…so the local market appears to be boosting them much more than down the street? HHN being mobbed supports that theory as well…

Gee? I wonder what might be more attractive at universal if your a Florida resident?
Any ideas?

For non-locals, USO and WDW are linked in that a lot of USO guests are also WDW guests. USO is a 2-3 day max experience. So non-locals will do both. Most non-locals won't devote a week trip to only USO. This will change after EPIC, which is why USO can't get it built fast enough.

 

[Lilofan]

Genie posted ride times are absolutely the worst “indicator” of crowd size. They really don’t do that at all in 2023.

But of more direct issue: they also don’t indicate the health of the BUSINESS in the parks.

If there are 90 minutes waits posted on the 6 rides at mgm…but the restaurants are wide open, the gift shops “light” and Pop, AoA and Caribbean are at 80% occupancy…
…the wdw resort is having a “awful” day.

That’s what lower crowds actually does. Doesn’t get you on Peter Pan quickly

And what’s going on is the town is overpriced for the American market…and That’s 80% of its business.
Why? The Covid price gouging at home. You can’t increase the prices of EVERY necessity at home by 200 or 300% in 2 years without it eventually taking a bite out of travel. Travel is always the first thing to go in a recession…it’s disposable without obvious pain and can be “downsized” rather easily.

This is far worse for disney than a recession…it’s more “it’s not that I don’t want it…I just don’t GOT it” with really no relief in site.

Nov 8 is when Iger and whoever the CFO is that replaced Christine to go over company earnings with Wall Street in the public conf call. It is unfortunate that the analysts won't ask the hard questions to Iger during Q&A.

 

[monothingie]

For non-locals, USO and WDW are linked in that a lot of USO guests are also WDW guests. USO is a 2-3 day max experience. So non-locals will do both. Most non-locals won't devote a week trip to only USO. This will change after EPIC, which is why USO can't get it built fast enough.

Also USO didn't take their AP Holders, kick them to curb, then spit on them.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Also USO didn't take their AP Holders, kick them to curb, then spit on them.

…noticed, huh?

 

[monothingie]

…noticed, huh?

Sorry I had something in my eye.

 

[JusticeDisney]

Also USO didn't take their AP Holders, kick them to curb, then spit on them.

Yup. Of all the dumb moves WDW has made, this one has to rank right up there at the top.

 

[The Mom]

People have been warned (in another thread) that if they couldn't participate in a thread without arguing with, or insulting other posters, they would not be allowed to post.

The same posters are doing the same thing here. Also, FYI, derisive laughing at other posts with the laughing emoji is not allowed.

 

[ChrisRobin124]

This feels like a good time to clarify:

While I'm not what you'd call a pixieduster, I'm 100% *not* a doom-and-gloomer. I've been to the resort probably 60+ times in my 38 years on earth. I have a tattoo of the original Horizons pavilion logo. I love classic EPCOT, and I love a lot of the recent additions across the resort.

I started selling as a Disney travel agent more than a decade ago, and was selling $125,000+ annually on my own by year 3. In the early days of the pandemic, I bought out the agency I was selling under and now oversee 15 agents selling as a part of my organization: From New Jersey, to Ohio, to Florida, to Nebraska.

From a business perspective - as someone who has plenty of my own value tied up in the mouse - things are not well specifically at WDW. Hotel occupancy at historic lows delivers a huge blow to per-guest spending, even if they're able to compensate with gate clicks from offsite guests at the parks. Iger's entire strategy for the resort delivered some short-term gains at the expense of long-term stability. Couple that with the creative bankruptcy at WDI and we're left with a perfect storm: Empty hotel rooms, underdeveloped parks, transparent nickel-and-diming everywhere the guest turns, and Wall Street soon to come calling.

And, FWIW, I'll be at Yacht Club on Veterans Day weekend to celebrate my birthday at Food & Wine. Happy to grab a drink and talk shop... glares from my wife tossed in at no extra charge!

I have the same tattoo! My son as well!

 

[LSLS]

No, my definition of busy does mean the actual number of people in the parks, which as I said I was able to observe with my own two eyes. While attendance is no doubt lower, the idea that the parks have consistently been empty is laughable.

So then it is 1000% NOT a fact that the parks are busy by your definition. We don't have a number of what is busy anyways, but you don't have the evidence of the numbers of people being high. Your eyes are not facts as to how many people are there. If there were 10,000 people in park lines, 2,000 at food places, and 6,000 on the streets, and that has changed to 7,000 in line, 500 in food places, and 7,000 in the streets, it could appear busier to you while in fact not being busier by your definition (and again, inflating wait times can happen for many reasons which do not include more people being in line).

I'm far from saying it's dead (again, aside from the week I was there, which even cast members told me it was historic lows), but I'm not calling it busy either in terms of number of people in the parks. There are WAY too many variables that we could make things look and feel busier than they are. Things like number of rides open, number of operators, average ride dispatch time, people in the gift shops, etc. If the ultimate indicator is the number of people in the park, then we don't have a clue at this point outside of knowing it was less busy last quarter than in previous years. But there is a lot of evidence that things are nowhere near the level they want them/expect them to be at (whether that means it is currently busy to us the customers or not). Guess we will see when the numbers start coming out (again, I'm not one saying they are dead or even arguing it's not busy, but I do take issue with it being presented as a fact).

 

[Nubs70]

Use ride throughput (total riders per hour) to define the level of busy in the parks.

Use number of person nights ( person nights = 4 guests in a room for 1 night = 4 person nights) to define level of busy in the resorts.

 

[Minnesota disney fan]

People have been warned (in another thread) that if they couldn't participate in a thread without arguing with, or insulting other posters, they would not be allowed to post.

The same posters are doing the same thing here. Also, FYI, derisive laughing at other posts with the laughing emoji is not allowed.

THANK YOU the Mom! I have been trying to read this thread but there seems to be certain posters that jump on anyone who has an opinion other than their "right" one. They always try to start an argument. Other posters that answer them do it in a nice nonargumentative way. I am so glad to see you cracking down on this nonsense.

 

[Disstevefan1]

We know attendance is down at WDW but are they making less money?

We know they reduce staff when attendance is down, so costs are down too.

In any case, lower attendance should in a better guest experience, right?

 

[eliza61nyc]

We know attendance is down at WDW but are they making less money?

We know they reduce staff when attendance is down, so costs are down too.

In any case, lower attendance should in a better guest experience, right?

It was for my trip @Disstevefan1. lol not sure if you were serious or not but I'm not going to lie, we loved having an almost empty park. we were there 9/6-9/16 and only did the genie plus thing one time at Magic Kingdom. now personally I've never ran into all these disgruntled cm's that folks here have. every single cm was polite cheerful and helpful. If you go over to my trip report I posted pictures of every single rest room I went into, I wanted to see all these "dirty" bathrooms. lol let me tell you, ladies look at you weird when you take pictures of the bathroom. anyway, they were all clean and full stocked.

only two rides had long wait times while we were there. slinky dog dash and 7 dwarf train ride. we never hit the 60 minute mark on any thing else.

the only drawback had nothing to do with Disney, it was "hell-hot" all week. real feel temps around 105

 

[Grimley1968]

TBH the ticket discounts, even if it's only for 3-9 YO's, are something new to me. In all the years between about 2000-2020 that we regularly went with our kids, we almost always had some kind of discount, but I don't remember one that had a discount on the tickets themselves, only on the rooms or dining. This is separate from the usual room discount offers. I think in those 20 years Disney knew they had somewhat captive guests, and knew they didn't need to discount the tickets to keep the parks crowded. There's no way such a discount would be offered if they believed there were enough park visitors to keep up with past crowds, and/or there was a robust forecast in this regard. I'm curious to see if the ticket discounts will be expanded if the forecasts get even gloomier.