Iger’s $17 Billion Walt Disney World Investment

ParentsOf4

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
As recently reported by WDWMAGIC.COM:

The Walt Disney Company is developing plans to accelerate and expand investment in its Parks, Experiences and Products segment to nearly double capital expenditures over the course of approximately 10 years to roughly $60 billion, including by investing in expanding and enhancing domestic and international parks and cruise line capacity.​

Understandably, many want to know how much of this $60B will go to Walt Disney World (WDW).

During a shareholder's meeting on April 3, Disney CEO Bob Iger stated:

We’re currently planning now to invest over $17 billion in Walt Disney World over the next 10 years, and those investments, we estimate, will create 13,000 new Disney jobs and thousands of other indirect jobs, and they’ll also attract more people to the state and generate more taxes.​

"Invest" is somewhat vague. Is this total capital expenditures or new investment?

Quoting from Investopedia:

Capital expenditures (CapEx) are funds used by a company to acquire, upgrade, and maintain physical assets such as property, plants, buildings, technology, or equipment. CapEx is often used to undertake new projects or investments by a company. Making capital expenditures on fixed assets can include repairing a roof (if the useful life of the roof is extended), purchasing a piece of equipment, or building a new factory. This type of financial outlay is made by companies to increase the scope of their operations or add some future economic benefit to the operation.​

Company officers often use the terms "investment" and "capex" interchangeably. Disney’s more recent statements regarding the $60B specifically references capex. Presumably, the $17B mentioned by Iger is total capex.

So what does $17B of capex buy us at WDW?

Capex is the purchase of an asset that will benefit a company for several years. Capex can be lumped into two broad categories, investment (or growth) and maintenance.

Disney replacing an old bus with a new bus can be thought of as maintenance capex. Disney adding a new bus to increase the size of its fleet can be thought of as growth capex.

When Disney buys that bus, its purchase price does not impact profit immediately. Instead, the cost of the purchase is spread out over the number of years it will be used. This is called "depreciation". It's this depreciation that impacts profit.

Let's say that a Disney bus costs $500K and Disney intends to keep that bus for 10 years. That $500K does not reduce profit by $500K the year it is purchased. Instead, that bus affects profit for 10 years by $50K each year in the form of depreciation. (Disney uses the straight-line method to depreciate assets.) Once that bus exceeds its useful life, it should be replaced with a new bus. This is especially true at WDW where Guests expect (and pay for) high standards.

Without detailed disclosures, a rule-of-thumb is to estimate maintenance capex to be equal to depreciation. Amounts spent below depreciation are (or should be) for maintenance. Amounts spent above depreciation are for growth (or investment).

Since the $17B appears to include both maintenance and growth capex, we have to understand how much Disney spends on maintenance capex in order to calculate how much they have left for growth capex.

During the most recently completed fiscal year (2022), domestic P&R depreciation is $1.68B. Overwhelmingly, this consists of depreciation from WDW, Disneyland Resort (DLR), Disney Cruise Line (DCL), and Disney Vacation Club (DVC).

Historically, roughly 80% of domestic P&R depreciation was associated with WDW’s massive 25,000 acre facility. With three large cruise ships added, and another two on the way, that percentage is changing. Still, the change is not particularly great. For example, the Disney Wish went into service earlier this year. With a rumored cost of $1B and Disney’s straight line depreciation method taking this down to $150M (i.e. 15%) in 30 years (a standard approach to depreciate large vessels), the Disney Wish adds about $28M in depreciation per year. With total domestic P&R depreciation at $1.68B in 2022, that’s a 1.7% increase. Given recent additions to WDW also adding to depreciation, last year’s WDW depreciation probably is around $1.3B.

If domestic P&R depreciation remains unchanged, then that comes out to $13B over the next 10 years. Given Iger’s previous $17B statement, growth capex for 10 years would be $4B.

However, depreciation nearly always increases over time. Disney domestic P&R depreciation has averaged a 6% annual increase for the last 10 years. If this pace continued, WDW 10-year depreciation might add to over $18B. Even if WDW depreciation increased by only 3%, Domestic P&R depreciation over the next 10 years would add to more $15B, leaving less than $2B in investment at WDW.

Best guess is that WDW growth capex will average $200M to $400M per year for the next decade.

But how does this compare to the past?

Luckily, I just happen to have a chart for this! 😁

P&R Growth Capex.jpg


$200M to $400M per year is a good number. We should see a land or two (e.g. the Dinoland replacement and perhaps a new area behind Big Thunder Mountain), as well as a few attractions.

However, WDW growth won’t be at the same level as what we’ve seen more recently with Star Wars: Galaxy’s Edge, Toy Story Land, Mickey & Minnie’s Runaway Railway, Guardians of the Galaxy: Cosmic Rewind, Ratatouille, Pandora, and TRON. As the chart suggests, Disney's larger investments since former Disney CEO Michael Eisner took over in 1984 far exceed the $400M threshold.

The problem is how much Disney spends to build. Take, for example, TRON. It’s a nice, fun rollercoaster. But rumor is that it cost $300M to construct. Universal’s VelociCoaster is more thrilling, and allegedly cost 1/3 that. Admittedly, Disney and Universal are targeting different audiences with these coasters, but it does suggest that $2B-to-$4B at WDW won’t go as far as it would elsewhere.

Disney’s financial failure known as Star Wars: Galactic Starcruiser is being written off at a cost of $300M, and that’s a small (100-room) hotel with no windows or pools.

Again, Disney seems to spend money like no other park operator.
 

Stripes

Well-Known Member
I appreciate the analysis. Thank you!

However, although we might make educated guesses about how far $60 billion or $17 billion will go, there are an awful lot of unknown variables that could dramatically change our understanding.
 

Advisable Joseph

Active Member
Maintenance is always OpEx, never CapEx in US accounting. It doesn't produce anything new, just maintains what already exists.
Important to note.

I have a couple of questions:

* How does this account for inflation.

* In the report for FY2016 at https://thewaltdisneycompany.com/wa...arter-earnings-full-year-earnings-fiscal-2016, I noticed that media networks as well as consumer products and interactive media had a larger depreciation than capital expenditure. What does this imply?

* Also, depreciation is accounting for investments already made over their estimated lifetimes, while capex is new investments, so new attractions, hotels, and furniture etc. is not limited to the difference, correct?
 
Last edited:

fradz

Well-Known Member
I have a couple of questions:

* In the report for FY2016 at https://thewaltdisneycompany.com/wa...arter-earnings-full-year-earnings-fiscal-2016, I noticed that media networks as well as consumer products and interactive media had a larger depreciation than capital expenditure. What does this imply?
--> This implies that they made very large investments in the previous fiscal years and that the depreciation of those investments was larger than the current fiscal year spend.
 

monothingie

❤️Bob4Eva❤️
Premium Member
As recently reported by WDWMAGIC.COM:

The Walt Disney Company is developing plans to accelerate and expand investment in its Parks, Experiences and Products segment to nearly double capital expenditures over the course of approximately 10 years to roughly $60 billion, including by investing in expanding and enhancing domestic and international parks and cruise line capacity.​

Understandably, many want to know how much of this $60B will go to Walt Disney World (WDW).

During a shareholder's meeting on April 3, Disney CEO Bob Iger stated:

We’re currently planning now to invest over $17 billion in Walt Disney World over the next 10 years, and those investments, we estimate, will create 13,000 new Disney jobs and thousands of other indirect jobs, and they’ll also attract more people to the state and generate more taxes.​

"Invest" is somewhat vague. Is this total capital expenditures or new investment?

Quoting from Investopedia:

Capital expenditures (CapEx) are funds used by a company to acquire, upgrade, and maintain physical assets such as property, plants, buildings, technology, or equipment. CapEx is often used to undertake new projects or investments by a company. Making capital expenditures on fixed assets can include repairing a roof (if the useful life of the roof is extended), purchasing a piece of equipment, or building a new factory. This type of financial outlay is made by companies to increase the scope of their operations or add some future economic benefit to the operation.​

Company officers often use the terms "investment" and "capex" interchangeably. Disney’s more recent statements regarding the $60B specifically references capex. Presumably, the $17B mentioned by Iger is total capex.

So what does $17B of capex buy us at WDW?

Capex is the purchase of an asset that will benefit a company for several years. Capex can be lumped into two broad categories, investment (or growth) and maintenance.

Disney replacing an old bus with a new bus can be thought of as maintenance capex. Disney adding a new bus to increase the size of its fleet can be thought of as growth capex.

When Disney buys that bus, its purchase price does not impact profit immediately. Instead, the cost of the purchase is spread out over the number of years it will be used. This is called "depreciation". It's this depreciation that impacts profit.

Let's say that a Disney bus costs $500K and Disney intends to keep that bus for 10 years. That $500K does not reduce profit by $500K the year it is purchased. Instead, that bus affects profit for 10 years by $50K each year in the form of depreciation. (Disney uses the straight-line method to depreciate assets.) Once that bus exceeds its useful life, it should be replaced with a new bus. This is especially true at WDW where Guests expect (and pay for) high standards.

Without detailed disclosures, a rule-of-thumb is to estimate maintenance capex to be equal to depreciation. Amounts spent below depreciation are (or should be) for maintenance. Amounts spent above depreciation are for growth (or investment).

Since the $17B appears to include both maintenance and growth capex, we have to understand how much Disney spends on maintenance capex in order to calculate how much they have left for growth capex.

During the most recently completed fiscal year (2022), domestic P&R depreciation is $1.68B. Overwhelmingly, this consists of depreciation from WDW, Disneyland Resort (DLR), Disney Cruise Line (DCL), and Disney Vacation Club (DVC).

Historically, roughly 80% of domestic P&R depreciation was associated with WDW’s massive 25,000 acre facility. With three large cruise ships added, and another two on the way, that percentage is changing. Still, the change is not particularly great. For example, the Disney Wish went into service earlier this year. With a rumored cost of $1B and Disney’s straight line depreciation method taking this down to $150M (i.e. 15%) in 30 years (a standard approach to depreciate large vessels), the Disney Wish adds about $28M in depreciation per year. With total domestic P&R depreciation at $1.68B in 2022, that’s a 1.7% increase. Given recent additions to WDW also adding to depreciation, last year’s WDW depreciation probably is around $1.3B.

If domestic P&R depreciation remains unchanged, then that comes out to $13B over the next 10 years. Given Iger’s previous $17B statement, growth capex for 10 years would be $4B.

However, depreciation nearly always increases over time. Disney domestic P&R depreciation has averaged a 6% annual increase for the last 10 years. If this pace continued, WDW 10-year depreciation might add to over $18B. Even if WDW depreciation increased by only 3%, Domestic P&R depreciation over the next 10 years would add to more $15B, leaving less than $2B in investment at WDW.

Best guess is that WDW growth capex will average $200M to $400M per year for the next decade.

But how does this compare to the past?

Luckily, I just happen to have a chart for this! 😁

View attachment 744770

$200M to $400M per year is a good number. We should see a land or two (e.g. the Dinoland replacement and perhaps a new area behind Big Thunder Mountain), as well as a few attractions.

However, WDW growth won’t be at the same level as what we’ve seen more recently with Star Wars: Galaxy’s Edge, Toy Story Land, Mickey & Minnie’s Runaway Railway, Guardians of the Galaxy: Cosmic Rewind, Ratatouille, Pandora, and TRON. As the chart suggests, Disney's larger investments since former Disney CEO Michael Eisner took over in 1984 far exceed the $400M threshold.

The problem is how much Disney spends to build. Take, for example, TRON. It’s a nice, fun rollercoaster. But rumor is that it cost $300M to construct. Universal’s VelociCoaster is more thrilling, and allegedly cost 1/3 that. Admittedly, Disney and Universal are targeting different audiences with these coasters, but it does suggest that $2B-to-$4B at WDW won’t go as far as it would elsewhere.

Disney’s financial failure known as Star Wars: Galactic Starcruiser is being written off at a cost of $300M, and that’s a small (100-room) hotel with no windows or pools.

Again, Disney seems to spend money like no other park operator.
CAPEX doesn't even need to be a physical object. Genie+ development was CAPEX. There are strong rumors of a new "Prime" Disney App to integrate parks, streaming, shopping into one place to replace the existing MDE.
 

networkpro

Well-Known Member
In the Parks
Yes
Replacing and old bus with a new one is still CapEx. It’s just CapEx that isn’t what we want to see (new attractions) and it eats up a lot of available funds.
That's where it gets really dismal in inflationary times. The depreciated asset still has a book value, but it's current replacement cost can be higher than the original asset.
 

monothingie

❤️Bob4Eva❤️
Premium Member
Didn't MDE alone cost $1 billion +? Which is ridiculous considering the track record of Disney's still terrible IT.
Disney has terrible cost controls for projects of all types. Whether the goals are overly ambitious or inherently unrealistic, it seems like everything that Disney does domestically goes over-budget, takes longer, and gets scaled back.

If the rumors are true, this "Prime" app could potentially be as big if not bigger of a boondoggle.
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
Maintenance is always OpEx, never CapEx in US accounting. It doesn't produce anything new, just maintains what already exists.
He's using reserved words in a poor way trying to illustrate the idea of 'spending to maintain status quo vs spending to expand'.

His methodology can work for kinda 30kft kinda views, but really shouldn't be taken as gospel for what is actually happening in the business. The accounting of depreciation just isn't that constant for the business as a whole - because it will vary based on how things overlap (or not) and as we can see with Star Cruiser, can take significant spikes.

And spending to maintain status quo can't be glemed purely from Capex dollars because it's only a portion of what it really takes to 'maintain' your level of operations.

And your capEx as an absolute number can be misleading because as we are saying here... your scale alone can cost you billions just to keep the pace of refresh you've always done and people are used to.

The part that matters most is as Disney framed it... what we are doing vs what we have been doing. And there the math is clear... nearly doubling the prior spend.
 

EPCOT-O.G.

Well-Known Member
The stock’s about to drop below $80 again. I think this $60bn/$17bn/ What’s Iger going to spend it on? Series of questions is an intellectual exercise at this point.
 

Kamikaze

Well-Known Member
There's no way they're including depreciation and calling it 'spending'. The SEC would call that 'misleading shareholders'.
 

Kamikaze

Well-Known Member
The stock’s about to drop below $80 again. I think this $60bn/$17bn/ What’s Iger going to spend it on? Series of questions is an intellectual exercise at this point.
The sentiment has changed around the stock, though.
Screenshot 2023-09-25 111108.jpg

Is the situation any different now than it was a few weeks ago? No, not really. But when the winds start pushing the other way, the stock usually follows.
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
There's no way they're including depreciation and calling it 'spending'. The SEC would call that 'misleading shareholders'.
They don't - this is (as said before) - poor labeling by him in trying to express his actual point.

He's trying to highlight the idea of spending to maintain status quo... vs spending to expand. Or to dumb it down even more... replacements vs expansion.

It's connecting two different things... but trying to say a portion of their investment is really just investment to tread water.. and using deprecation spending as a indirect way to size how much that is. It's not a 1:1 correlation - it's more about estimating. And it's weak.. but something.
 

networkpro

Well-Known Member
In the Parks
Yes
Disney’s structural assets (e.g. Cinderella’s Castle) typically are depreciated over 30 or 40 years.

IT assets have a@MUCH faster depreciation rates.

If Disney is buying a lot of IT equipment, then we’re going to see a faster increase in depreciation, and maintenance capex to replace/upgrade it at a much more frequent pace.

It assets in the US are typically depreciated over 3 years. That's also its usual prodcution lifecycle. It played havoc with traditional telecommunications companies that had up to a 30 year schedule for a 5ESS telephone switch depreciation. 20 years left to depreciate for an obsolete pice of equipment with a book value significantly less than it was acquired for or even could be sold for.
 

The Mom

Moderator
Premium Member
Just a reminder:

3. Be courteous and respect your fellow members. To be clear, personal attacks, aggressive messages, and passive-aggressive behavior is unacceptable. If you take particular issue with another user and are unable to reply in a civilised and constructive way to their posts, you should ignore the user.
 

No Name

Well-Known Member
Didn't MDE alone cost $1 billion +? Which is ridiculous

That’s the price to pay for creating tap to pay before Apple. If they had done it a few years later, it would’ve probably cost half as much, but it might’ve also been watered down at lot. The whole magicband thing and the nice touchpoints with the light and sound are just really well done, and so I think it was money worth spending.
 

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