Florida commission: Disney discriminated against autistic visitors

Weather_Lady

Well-Known Member
Meh. State commission proceedings are (in this case) part of the mandatory prerequisites to bringing a federal lawsuit, and those commissions are known for doing weird and wacky things. The commission members aren't all lawyers and judges (in fact, it's possible that none of them are), but political appointees culled purposely from a diverse array of backgrounds. I'm sure they did their best, but it's the federal courts that will decide whether anti-discrimination laws have actually been broken here. The headlines may sound imposing, but this there's no reason to become alarmed: this announcement is only slightly more authoritative, and no more final, than someone posting, "my Uncle Louis, a local plumber and all-around great guy, finds that Disney World has violated anti-discrimination laws." :)
 
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BuzzKillington

Active Member
There is no time gained by someone in a wheelchair getting a DAS because they would still have to wait for the wheelchair accessible car after they go through the FP line.

And this is why wheelchair bound patrons should be afforded the DAS and get 20 minutes off the wait time. Otherwise, no matter how you slice it, they will be waiting longer than any guest.
 

arko

Well-Known Member
So your saying Disney should go beyond ADA requirements for those in wheelchairs? Because the ADA says nothing about equal wait time, all it states is a reasonable accomodation.
 

RSoxNo1

Well-Known Member
I thought the current Universal system was the same as the current Disney system? That's the way it worked the last time I went to Uni with my disabled friend.
Isn't the Uni system more or less the same as the current Disney one?
Slightly different.

Disney:
  • If the attraction wait time is 10 minutes or less, guests are directed to the Standby queue.
  • If the attraction wait time exceeds 10 minutes, guests are given a return time that is the current wait time, less 10 minutes.
Universal
  • If the attraction wait time is 30 minutes or less, guests are directed to the Express queue.
  • If the attraction wait time exceeds 30 minutes, guests are given a return time that is typically the current wait time.
 

StarWarsGirl

Well-Known Member
In the Parks
No
Slightly different.

Disney:
  • If the attraction wait time is 10 minutes or less, guests are directed to the Standby queue.
  • If the attraction wait time exceeds 10 minutes, guests are given a return time that is the current wait time, less 10 minutes.
Universal
  • If the attraction wait time is 30 minutes or less, guests are directed to the Express queue.
  • If the attraction wait time exceeds 30 minutes, guests are given a return time that is typically the current wait time.
That's the policy as written.

In practice more recently, I've noticed it's been more like the Uni system. CMs will generally just direct you to the FP line. At first, they seemed to be following the policy as written, but now basically they just let you through the FP line if it's 20 minutes or less. Works much better that way IMO.
 

PhotoDave219

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
Slightly different.

Disney:
  • If the attraction wait time is 10 minutes or less, guests are directed to the Standby queue.
  • If the attraction wait time exceeds 10 minutes, guests are given a return time that is the current wait time, less 10 minutes.
Universal
  • If the attraction wait time is 30 minutes or less, guests are directed to the Express queue.
  • If the attraction wait time exceeds 30 minutes, guests are given a return time that is typically the current wait time.

Thanks for clarifying.
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
Well this is a bunch of crap. What is autistic Jimmy going to do when he comes of age and enters the real world? ? What is Trust Fund Jenny going to do when she comes of age and enters the real world?

Probably the same thing, "I'm entitled, gimme gimme gimme"
For the more severe cases, these kids will never enter the real world. They are not just spoiled brats.

So I'm wondering how in the world people who can't stand in line due to kids with autism managed to queue up to board the plane to get to Florida, wait in line for a restroom or make it through the line at check out at the grocery store.
The issue is not all waits in general. It is specific waits in regards to certain items of fixation. There have also been plenty of family members here who have discussed the sort of detailed coordination that goes into just daily routines, much less travel.
 

RSoxNo1

Well-Known Member
That's the policy as written.

In practice more recently, I've noticed it's been more like the Uni system. CMs will generally just direct you to the FP line. At first, they seemed to be following the policy as written, but now basically they just let you through the FP line if it's 20 minutes or less. Works much better that way IMO.
That was not our experience in January, although we really only used it on attractions with much longer waits.
 

StarWarsGirl

Well-Known Member
In the Parks
No
That was not our experience in January, although we really only used it on attractions with much longer waits.
We were there in January as well. Routinely, CMs would let us go through. Occasionally, we'd get ones who wanted to follow the policy as written, but usually they sent us through FP. This was our experience at several parks, including AK for EE, DHS for Star Tours, and several attractions in MK. A lot of times, we were just asking for a return time even though the line was short, but they would just wave us through the FP line. No one directed us through standby. Either they would write a return time for 10 minutes later or just wave us through.
 

ParentsOf4

Well-Known Member
This ADA lawsuit has come up a few times on these threads, generating a great deal of debate each time. For those of you who might be interested in the less emotional aspects of the lawsuit, I decided to put together the following.

The Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) was passed in 1990 and strengthened in 2008. It passed with near-unanimous support from both Democrats and Republicans. The two parties might be partisan on most issues, but ADA is not one of them.

ADA protects those with physical or mental disabilities from discrimination. ADA specifies that discrimination occurs when there is “a failure to make reasonable modifications in policies, practices, or procedures, when such modifications are necessary to afford such goods, services, facilities, privileges, advantages, or accommodations to individuals with disabilities, unless the entity can demonstrate that making such modifications would fundamentally alter the nature of such goods, services, facilities, privileges, advantages, or accommodations”.

ADA applies to private companies such as Disney that sell goods or services to the public. Amusement parks are specifically cited in ADA. By law, WDW must comply with ADA.

ADA requires Disney to take proactive steps to eliminate discrimination due to disability at its theme parks.

For those with mobility issues, Disney must build ramps, provide accessible buses, and alter hotel rooms. Disney must provide braille menus or alternatives for the blind. Disney must assist those with hearing disabilities. Disney has spent tens-of-millions of dollars in order to comply with this aspect of ADA.

Disney also must do something for those with mental disabilities, which is why it created the Disability Access Service (DAS). To be clear, Disney did not create DAS because it is being magnanimous. It created DAS because Disney is legally obligated to create something like it.

ADA has limitations. It uses terms such as “reasonable modifications” and “fundamentally alter” to define those limits. (I’ll explain these in a bit.) Above all, ADA places safety first. Safety trumps the rest of ADA. Companies sometimes try to stretch the definition of safety because they know if they win this argument, they’ll win the case.

Some ADA cases have made it to the U.S. Supreme Court. In a relatively well-known case, a PGA golfer with a physical disability wanted to use a golf cart during tournament play. The PGA fought him and lost.

One of the footnotes in this PGA v. Martin ruling outlines the basic legal principles the Courts consider when making an ADA ruling:

As we have noted, the statute contemplates three inquiries: whether the requested modification is "reasonable," whether it is "necessary" for the disabled individual, and whether it would "fundamentally alter the nature of" the competition.​

For the plaintiffs in the Disney lawsuit to win their case, they must prevail on all 3 points.

Necessary Modification

The plaintiffs must show that what is being requested is a “necessary modification”.

This is where I believe the plaintiffs’ case is weakest.

A necessary modification means the modification is required in order to accommodate the disability. In most successful ADA lawsuits, the plaintiffs’ need for the modification was obvious. Often it was uncontested.

In the Disney lawsuit, neither side disputes that some modification is necessary. However, the two sides disagree on how much of a modification is needed.

Disney has offered the plaintiffs DAS, a fair modification. The plaintiffs claim that DAS is insufficient.

For this point, the plaintiffs need to show that the modifications they seek are necessary, which is made more difficult given Disney’s willingness to provide them with something that's fair.

Prior rulings suggest that it’s insufficient for the plaintiffs to get on the stand and claim, “I need this modification”. A statement of need is not proof of need, and the Courts generally have not showed much sympathy for this tactic. Usually, it requires corroborative evidence to support the claim. Autism is a well-established mental disability but getting on the stand and crying about “my child’s life challenges” is not going to win the case in court.

IMO, the plaintiffs need to present expert medical testimony to support their claim. If they don’t, then prior rulings suggest Disney will win.

Even if the plaintiffs present expert testimony, Disney can counter with its own experts. It could come down to a judge deciding whose testimony is more persuasive.

One thing to keep in mind is that Autism is a spectrum disorder. What works for one person with Autism might not work for another. Thus, today’s finding that Disney discriminated wasn’t because Disney failed to provide a modification; it was because DAS was a “blanket accommodation that did not take into account the nuances between various disabilities”.

Reasonable Modification

Prior rulings suggest that the Courts do not define a “reasonable modification” to be one that’s ‘fair’ or ‘equal’ to those without disabilities. The Courts don’t seem to be applying the “reasonable person” standard to this. Instead, the Courts have ruled that it’s perfectly acceptable to provide those with disabilities with preferential treatment, if this preferential treatment is needed in order to accommodate the disability.

Taking this one step further, the Supreme Court ruled that an “accommodation is not reasonable if it imposes undue financial and administrative burdens”. Thus, it appears that the correct interpretation of an “unreasonable modification” is one that creates an excessive burden for the defendant (i.e. Disney).

Given Disney’s considerable financial resources, I don’t see how Disney wins this point.

Fundamental Alteration

Unlike the first two points, the burden of proving that something is a “fundamental alteration” is on the defendant (i.e. Disney).

Generally, the Courts have used a high standard when determining whether something is a fundamental alteration. An alteration does not make it a fundamental alteration. The use of the qualifier “fundamental” explains why the Courts have used this high standard.

Based on the reasoning applied in PGA v. Martin, it appears that if an entity has a way to easily modify its rules in order to accommodate a disability, then it does not rise to the standard of a fundamental alteration.

Disney already offers FP and FP+, which offer limited express line access to all Guests. Furthermore, front line supervisors have the authority to distribute additional complementary FP/FP+ for numerous reasons. Providing additional complementary FP/FP+ in order to accommodate a legally protected disability certainly would not seem to constitute a fundamental alteration.

As with "reasonable modification", don’t confuse “fundamental alteration” with ‘fair’. You and I might think it’s unfair for someone with a disability to receive preferential treatment. However, this does not fundamentally alter the nature of an attraction, especially since Disney already offers an express line for most attractions. The allotment of FP+ is a rule that Disney easily could modify to accommodate someone with a disability.

What would I consider to be a fundamental alteration?

IMO, requiring a roller coaster to operate at (for example) 5 MPH to accommodate a person’s disability would be a fundamental alteration. By its very nature, a roller coaster is fast and bumpy. Slowing it down to 5 MPH would be a fundamental alteration. It would alter its essence.

What does it mean?

According to today’s article, Disney “Argued that the complaints failed to prove that the Disability Access Service program hasn’t accommodated their disability”. I believe this is in response to the “necessary modification” inquiry. IMO, this is Disney’s best line of attack. I don't place much weight in the commission's finding since I suspect they were more sympathetic than the Courts might be.

The article doesn’t mention anything about “fundamental alteration” or “reasonable modification”. It would be interesting to learn if these points were raised at all to the commission.
 
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BuzzKillington

Active Member
So your saying Disney should go beyond ADA requirements for those in wheelchairs? Because the ADA says nothing about equal wait time, all it states is a reasonable accomodation.

ADA may not mention wait times but it does state that a disabled person should "be entitled to full and equal enjoyment of the goods, services, facilities, privileges, advantages, or accommodations of any place of public accommodation". It is a proven fact that wheelchair bound patrons' wait times are longer than any other park guest and therefore they are able to spend less time on the rides (= enjoyment).
 

TRONorail12

Active Member
This ADA lawsuit has come up a few times on these threads, generating a great deal of debate each time. For those of you who might be interested in the less emotional aspects of the lawsuit, I decided to put together the following.

The Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) was passed in 1990 and strengthened in 2008. It passed with near-unanimous support from both Democrats and Republicans. The two parties might be partisan on most issues, but ADA is not one of them.

ADA protects those with physical or mental disabilities from discrimination. ADA specifies that discrimination occurs when there is “a failure to make reasonable modifications in policies, practices, or procedures, when such modifications are necessary to afford such goods, services, facilities, privileges, advantages, or accommodations to individuals with disabilities, unless the entity can demonstrate that making such modifications would fundamentally alter the nature of such goods, services, facilities, privileges, advantages, or accommodations”.

ADA applies to private companies such as Disney that sell goods or services to the public. Amusement parks are specifically cited in ADA. By law, WDW must comply with ADA.

ADA requires Disney to take proactive steps to eliminate discrimination due to disability at its theme parks.

For those with mobility issues, Disney must build ramps, provide accessible buses, and alter hotel rooms. Disney must provide braille menus or alternatives for the blind. Disney must assist those with hearing disabilities. Disney has spent tens-of-millions of dollars in order to comply with this aspect of ADA.

Disney also must do something for those with mental disabilities, which is why it created the Disability Assistance Service (DAS). To be clear, Disney did not create DAS because it is being magnanimous. It created DAS because Disney is legally obligated to create something like it.

ADA has limitations. It uses terms such as “reasonable modifications” and “fundamentally alter” to define those limits. (I’ll explain these in a bit.) Above all, ADA places safety first. Safety trumps the rest of ADA. Companies sometimes try to stretch the definition of safety because they know if they win this argument, they’ll win the case.

Some ADA cases have made it to the U.S. Supreme Court. In a relatively well-known case, a PGA golfer with a physical disability wanted to use a golf cart during tournament play. The PGA fought him and lost.

One of the footnotes in this PGA v. Martin ruling outlines the basic legal principles the Courts consider when making an ADA ruling:

As we have noted, the statute contemplates three inquiries: whether the requested modification is "reasonable," whether it is "necessary" for the disabled individual, and whether it would "fundamentally alter the nature of" the competition.​

For the plaintiffs in the Disney lawsuit to win their case, they must prevail on all 3 points.

Necessary Modification

The plaintiffs must show that what is being requested is a “necessary modification”.

This is where I believe the plaintiffs’ case is weakest.

A necessary modification means the modification is required in order to accommodate the disability. In most successful ADA lawsuits, the plaintiffs’ need for the modification was obvious. Often it was uncontested.

In the Disney lawsuit, neither side disputes that some modification is necessary. However, the two sides disagree on how much of a modification is needed.

Disney has offered the plaintiffs DAS, a fair modification. The plaintiffs claim that DAS is insufficient.

For this point, the plaintiffs need to show that the modifications they seek are necessary, which is made more difficult given Disney’s willingness to provide them with something that's fair.

Prior rulings suggest that it’s insufficient for the plaintiffs to get on the stand and claim, “I need this modification”. A statement of need is not proof of need, and the Courts generally have not showed much sympathy for this tactic. Usually, it requires corroborative evidence to support the claim. Autism is a well-established mental disability but getting on the stand and crying about “my child’s life challenges” is not going to win the case in court.

IMO, the plaintiffs need to present expert medical testimony to support their claim. If they don’t, then prior rulings suggest Disney will win.

Even if the plaintiffs present expert testimony, Disney can counter with its own experts. It could come down to a judge deciding whose testimony is more persuasive.

One thing to keep in mind is that Autism is a spectrum disorder. What works for one person with Autism might not work for another. Thus, today’s finding that Disney discriminated wasn’t because Disney failed to provide a modification; it was because DAS was a “blanket accommodation that did not take into account the nuances between various disabilities”.

Reasonable Modification

Prior rulings suggest that the Courts do not define a “reasonable modification” to be one that’s ‘fair’ or ‘equal’ to those without disabilities. The Courts don’t seem to be applying the “reasonable person” standard to this. Instead, the Courts have ruled that it’s perfectly acceptable to provide those with disabilities with preferential treatment, if this preferential treatment is needed in order to accommodate the disability.

Taking this one step further, the Supreme Court ruled that an “accommodation is not reasonable if it imposes undue financial and administrative burdens”. Thus, it appears that the correct interpretation of an “unreasonable modification” is one that creates an excessive burden for the defendant (i.e. Disney).

Given Disney’s considerable financial resources, I don’t see how Disney wins this point.

Fundamental Alteration

Unlike the first two points, the burden of proving that something is a “fundamental alteration” is on the defendant (i.e. Disney).

Generally, the Courts have used a high standard when determining whether something is a fundamental alteration. An alteration does not make it a fundamental alteration. The use of the qualifier “fundamental” explains why the Courts have used this high standard.

Based on the reasoning applied in PGA v. Martin, it appears that if an entity has a way to easily modify its rules in order to accommodate a disability, then it does not rise to the standard of a fundamental alteration.

Disney already offers FP and FP+, which offer limited express line access to all Guests. Furthermore, front line supervisors have the authority to distribute additional complementary FP/FP+ for numerous reasons. Providing additional complementary FP/FP+ in order to accommodate a legally protected disability certainly would not seem to constitute a fundamental alteration.

As with "reasonable modification", don’t confuse “fundamental alteration” with ‘fair’. You and I might think it’s unfair for someone with a disability to receive preferential treatment. However, this does not fundamentally alter the nature of an attraction, especially since Disney already offers an express line for most attractions. The allotment of FP+ is a rule that Disney easily could modify to accommodate someone with a disability.

What would I consider to be a fundamental alteration?

IMO, requiring a roller coaster to operate at (for example) 5 MPH to accommodate a person’s disability would be a fundamental alteration. By its very nature, a roller coaster is fast and bumpy. Slowing it down to 5 MPH would be a fundamental alteration. It would alter its essence.

What does it mean?

According to today’s article, Disney “Argued that the complaints failed to prove that the Disability Access Service program hasn’t accommodated their disability”. I believe this is in response to the “necessary modification” inquiry. IMO, this is Disney’s best line of attack. I don't place much weight in the commission's finding since I suspect they were more sympathetic than the Courts might be.

The article doesn’t mention anything about “fundamental alteration” or “reasonable modification”. It would be interesting to learn if these points were raised at all to the commission.

Best Response Ever. I'm not even going to bother putting in my two cents because this summed up everything.
 

Nubs70

Well-Known Member
Did you really just call an Autistic person who has a program accomodate them at a theme park entitled? Regardless of what system is implemented that's a ridiculous way to view the situation.
Did I call them entitled?? Yes, I did. While the situation of Jimmy is different than that of Jenny, what else do you call it but entitlement? I have condition X therefor I have a divine right to Y.

I have a son that is on the spectrum. I finally came to the realization of this when on the bus to the Boardwalk when I had a "Parenthood" moment (Watch the movie Parenthood). However, I need to teach him how to cope with his personality rather than to be a medicated zombie like a good 1/3 of his class. To immerse him on special treatment now will only hurt him as an adult.
 

arko

Well-Known Member
ADA may not mention wait times but it does state that a disabled person should "be entitled to full and equal enjoyment of the goods, services, facilities, privileges, advantages, or accommodations of any place of public accommodation". It is a proven fact that wheelchair bound patrons' wait times are longer than any other park guest and therefore they are able to spend less time on the rides (= enjoyment).

Disney is covered under safety for the extra wait time

  • (b) Safety. A public accommodation may impose legitimate safety requirements that are necessary for safe operation. Safety requirements must be based on actual risks and not on mere speculation, stereotypes, or generalizations about individuals with disabilities.
 

arko

Well-Known Member
Did I call them entitled?? Yes, I did. While the situation of Jimmy is different than that of Jenny, what else do you call it but entitlement? I have condition X therefor I have a divine right to Y.

I have a son that is on the spectrum. I finally came to the realization of this when on the bus to the Boardwalk when I had a "Parenthood" moment (Watch the movie Parenthood). However, I need to teach him how to cope with his personality rather than to be a medicated zombie like a good 1/3 of his class. To immerse him on special treatment now will only hurt him as an adult.

Every autistic child is different and many don't need a ton of accommodations, but many do, this is not entitlement its reality for many of these families. My child is on the spectrum and thanks to lots of early intervention and therapy and yes medication when he was younger, he is in high school honors classes, is a star scout with no accommodations, and should be able to go to college. But it doesn't change the fact that getting there was a difficult journey and he is still as autistic as he was when he was six and attacked his mom with a fork because he did not how to deal with being told he could not do something (hence the meds for a few years). But once he was ready we got him off the meds and he has learned to cope and deal with all as much as he can.
But there are many families with kids on the much more severe end who are just trying to get through the day let alone thinking about college, and those kids have no idea what entitlement even is.
 

Magenta Panther

Well-Known Member
No, you contrasted it with things necessary to LIVE and hence decided (for them) these things need not be accessible. Imagine if Disney started excluding YOU from the parks and said 'well you dn't need it to live, so why are you complaining??'

I know what you are saying about their ability - the problem is with the broad brush you paint and honestly the insulting statements you make trying to articulate your belief.

When did I say that Disney should exclude anyone from the parks? I was talking about excessively accommodating people when the system that's in place is sufficient. In my view, the lawsuits and such are ridiculous overkill concocted by conniving lawyers. Yeah, I don't go for that.
 

StarWarsGirl

Well-Known Member
In the Parks
No
Did I call them entitled?? Yes, I did. While the situation of Jimmy is different than that of Jenny, what else do you call it but entitlement? I have condition X therefor I have a divine right to Y.

I have a son that is on the spectrum. I finally came to the realization of this when on the bus to the Boardwalk when I had a "Parenthood" moment (Watch the movie Parenthood). However, I need to teach him how to cope with his personality rather than to be a medicated zombie like a good 1/3 of his class. To immerse him on special treatment now will only hurt him as an adult.
I appreciate your experience and your input, but at the same time, you surely must realize that every child is different, so just because one particular form of treatment works for him does not mean that will work for every child.

My younger brother has autism. We had the same philosophy as you that we should treat him as normally as possible. In fact, that is still our philosophy. However, after a miserable first few days at DL in 2013 with constant meltdowns (I don't know how old your son is, but my brother got much worse right at age 11), we decided that the GAC was needed for him to have an enjoyable vacation. We have since used the DAS. I think he understands that the pass is for him because he has autism (and yes, we have said to him, "You feel this way because you have autism" and "We know you feel stressed waiting in line because you have autism") and not that he is getting special treatment.

I personally think that the DAS system works very well, and we see it as a reasonable accomodation. Sometimes with the GAC, we felt as if we were getting special treatment. Now, we don't feel that way with DAS. Regardless, I do not think it's fair to judge parents based on how they choose to handle their child's disability. Like I said, every child is different, so every treatment plan must be different.
 

Nubs70

Well-Known Member
I appreciate your experience and your input, but at the same time, you surely must realize that every child is different, so just because one particular form of treatment works for him does not mean that will work for every child.

My younger brother has autism. We had the same philosophy as you that we should treat him as normally as possible. In fact, that is still our philosophy. However, after a miserable first few days at DL in 2013 with constant meltdowns (I don't know how old your son is, but my brother got much worse right at age 11), we decided that the GAC was needed for him to have an enjoyable vacation. We have since used the DAS. I think he understands that the pass is for him because he has autism (and yes, we have said to him, "You feel this way because you have autism" and "We know you feel stressed waiting in line because you have autism") and not that he is getting special treatment.

I personally think that the DAS system works very well, and we see it as a reasonable accomodation. Sometimes with the GAC, we felt as if we were getting special treatment. Now, we don't feel that way with DAS. Regardless, I do not think it's fair to judge parents based on how they choose to handle their child's disability. Like I said, every child is different, so every treatment plan must be different.
Just to clarify, the problem I have is with the GAC not the DAS. To think the DAS is insufficient and discriminatory and the GAC is the only remedy, this is what I feel is entitlement.
 

arko

Well-Known Member
Just to clarify, the problem I have is with the GAC not the DAS. To think the DAS is insufficient and discriminatory and the GAC is the only remedy, this is what I feel is entitlement.

the only thing I will say in their defense is that for some of these kids routines are very rigid and so once you establish a pattern, its very hard to break it. So taking away what was routine could be an issue.

I think its important to note that the GAC was not being abused by those with disabilities for the most part, but was mostly being abused by those who had no real need for one and were using it in the fashion of an infinite fast pass on every ride in the park. This was most evident at DLR where the Annual Passholder contigent makes up a large part of weekend traffic, and they were using them by the boatloads which was causing massive issues. WDW had its fair share of issues as well, including the rich families hiring disabled tour guides.
But the program ran for years with little to no issues. Its only when the internet made it easy to spread the secret of free fastpasses to anyone that it became such an issue that Disney had to do something. And in the end the only people it really hurt were those the GAC helped the most. Now does the DAS meet the letter of the law, that is up to the courts to decide.
 

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