DisneylandForward

[flutas]

“It’s as if somehow we should feel fortunate that Walt Disney chose Anaheim”
- Jose Moreno

After the devastating year for Anaheim and the Disney Parks sector I think we all know how that quote looks. With that in mind, expect to see Disney using their muscle to get local residents and businesses on their side for a lot of new development work. This project is, for the time being, known as DisneylandForward.

Currently, it's expected to be a multi-year effort to "update" existing development approvals.

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I personally would expect that we will be seeing the return of the Eastern Gateway Project from this, but that is pure speculation on my part. What development approvals do you think we will see changed out of this? The new deluxe hotel project that was cancelled?

 

[CaptinEO]

“It’s as if somehow we should feel fortunate that Walt Disney chose Anaheim”
- Jose Moreno

After the devastating year for Anaheim and the Disney Parks sector I think we all know how that quote looks. With that in mind, expect to see Disney using their muscle to get local residents and businesses on their side for a lot of new development work. This project is, for the time being, known as DisneylandForward.

Currently, it's expected to be a multi-year effort to "update" existing development approvals.

---

I personally would expect that we will be seeing the return of the Eastern Gateway Project from this, but that is pure speculation on my part. What development approvals do you think we will see changed out of this? The new deluxe hotel project that was cancelled?

I can't say enough how much I love this quote.

I see local politicians being as friendly as possible to tourism. This had to have been quite a wake up call. Looks like that evil greedy corporation is responsible for a lot of tax money and contributed a lot to the OC.

 

[el_super]

I personally would expect that we will be seeing the return of the Eastern Gateway Project from this, but that is pure speculation on my part.

I don't think it's needed anymore. I think it will take a couple years for Disney to reimagine their master plan for the area.

Somehow though it doesn't seem like maximizing capacity is their long term goal any longer.

 

[CaptinEO]

I don't think it's needed anymore. I think it will take a couple years for Disney to reimagine their master plan for the area.

Somehow though it doesn't seem like maximizing capacity is their long term goal any longer.

I don't see why not, Disney has to play the long term game and not let 1 or 2 bad years throw away their plan thats been around for a decade.

 

[el_super]

I don't see why not, Disney has to play the long term game and not let 1 or 2 bad years throw away their plan thats been around for a decade.

No I mean the math doesn't really work out on this any longer. They wanted the Eastern Gateway because of SWGE. They thought they were going to need to pack in more APs to pay for the expansion. But two things have changed since then: They built Pixar Pals which took care of the immediate parking need and they eliminated the AP program. They believe they can make the same amount, if not more money, by having far fewer people in the park.

Without the AP program, you go back to a scenario where the visitors per vehicle shoots back up from 1 to maybe 2 or 3. You basically double the amount of parking inventory you have by eliminating the AP program.

There's just no point in building another parking structure now. Maybe if in a couple years they figure out people really aren't willing to pay more and they revert back to having a discount AP program, they may need it, but that doesn't necessarily mean they will want it.

 

[fctiger]

No I mean the math doesn't really work out on this any longer. They wanted the Eastern Gateway because of SWGE. They thought they were going to need to pack in more APs to pay for the expansion. But two things have changed since then: They built Pixar Pals which took care of the immediate parking need and they eliminated the AP program. They believe they can make the same amount, if not more money, by having far fewer people in the park.

Without the AP program, you go back to a scenario where the visitors per vehicle shoots back up from 1 to maybe 2 or 3. You basically double the amount of parking inventory you have by eliminating the AP program.

There's just no point in building another parking structure now. Maybe if in a couple years they figure out people really aren't willing to pay more and they revert back to having a discount AP program, they may need it, but that doesn't necessarily mean they will want it.

I would agree with this if eliminating the AP program was permanent, but I suspect it may be suspended for a year at best. They know they have to keep capacity low for now and can no longer shove every last human being into the parks any time soon. And there were plenty of complaints by APers at WDW that they felt they were getting jilted by not being able to go more and we know they are nowhere close to the numbers DLR has.

But my guess is the day things can become 'normal' again and can pack the parks, the old mentality will come back. I'm not saying this is a good thing, but I really don't buy Disney will turn over a new leaf when the motto has been to make their parks as busy as possible.

 

[el_super]

But my guess is the day things can become 'normal' again and can pack the parks, the old mentality will come back. I'm not saying this is a good thing, but I really don't buy Disney will turn over a new leaf when the motto has been to make their parks as busy as possible.

It is always possible the strategy will fail, but with Chapek going on TV basically saying "less is more" and promising they can make more money with fewer people in the park, well it seems like it would be a bad time to suggest spending on additional capacity they may not need.

I think long term they will still want to utilize some of that space and reconfigure things, but it will be a couple years before they have a solid plan (and know whether the APs are coming back or not) to present to the city for approval.

Which actually brings up another point: this isn't really more likely to make the city council vote yes on the Eastern Gateway because they were never really against it. It was the local businesses that opposed it and raised the concern.

 

[Nirya]

I don't see why not, Disney has to play the long term game and not let 1 or 2 bad years throw away their plan thats been around for a decade.

Disney failed at the long game regarding the parking situation for years prior to the pandemic. Pandemic just gives them an excuse to not spend money again for the foreseeable future.

 

[Darkbeer1]

It is always possible the strategy will fail, but with Chapek going on TV basically saying "less is more" and promising they can make more money with fewer people in the park, well it seems like it would be a bad time to suggest spending on additional capacity they may not need.

I think long term they will still want to utilize some of that space and reconfigure things, but it will be a couple years before they have a solid plan (and know whether the APs are coming back or not) to present to the city for approval.

Which actually brings up another point: this isn't really more likely to make the city council vote yes on the Eastern Gateway because they were never really against it. It was the local businesses that opposed it and raised the concern.

Mayor Tait was against it. The council just let EVERY Planning Commissioner go. So between November 2016 through 2018, the council was against anything Disney, especially the Mayor.

The vast majority of Resort Businesses were for the project. A few restaurants were against it, and allowed the new Planning Commission to say no.

 

[fctiger]

It is always possible the strategy will fail, but with Chapek going on TV basically saying "less is more" and promising they can make more money with fewer people in the park, well it seems like it would be a bad time to suggest spending on additional capacity they may not need.

I think long term they will still want to utilize some of that space and reconfigure things, but it will be a couple years before they have a solid plan (and know whether the APs are coming back or not) to present to the city for approval.

Which actually brings up another point: this isn't really more likely to make the city council vote yes on the Eastern Gateway because they were never really against it. It was the local businesses that opposed it and raised the concern.

But see that's what I don't really understand? They have TRIED the less is more approach in the past. Back in 2001 to be precise. They eliminated APs (its funny how people don't seem to remember this at all) and the entire point of building DCA was to get more vacationers to the park year round and stay longer. That was literally entire goal of expanding the resort, to rely less on locals and to get long term bigger spenders in the parks more.

And it failed! Big time! It failed so badly Disney panicked and reversed that decision in months and practically begged for Apers to come back. Because now they had two parks and not enough vacationers to fill them both as they hoped.

Now of course, it's literally 20 years later now and DCA as a park has much improved. But what's funny is I still come to boards like this and people are convinced DCA couldn't get enough people to fill up a lemonade stand if left to its own devices. And for the record I don't really believe that, I do think DCA is much more popular today on its own but I still doubt the park can get anywhere close to the numbers Disney wants, even if they lower it.

But we'll see. I don't think they are going to have any problems now, with such low capacity measures and people just desperate to go anywhere fun again. But once they can go back to normal capacity, it will be interesting to see how long they will last if the numbers are much lower, especially in DCA.

 

[el_super]

But see that's what I don't really understand? They have TRIED the less is more approach in the past. Back in 2001 to be precise. They eliminated APs (its funny how people don't seem to remember this at all) .

Yeah I don't think remember them eliminating the APs. They reconfigured the options and went thru a whole round of refunding the existing APs and pro-rating new passes, but they always intended fod them to be around... Just more expensive.

If the plan to get rid of the APs fails, and they do bring back discounting, what are the chances they will fall back into the same "why pay for more parking if we can't recoup the cost" logic they were using for the last 20 years?

They may end up needing the parking, but not really wanting it.

 

[TP2000]

I can't say enough how much I love this quote.

I see local politicians being as friendly as possible to tourism. This had to have been quite a wake up call. Looks like that evil greedy corporation is responsible for a lot of tax money and contributed a lot to the OC.

Isn't that quote wonderful?

It's really a beautiful little gift that Dr. Moreno gave us when he said that on purpose in a planned sit-down interview with the Journal.

"It’s as if somehow we should feel fortunate that Walt Disney chose Anaheim,” -Dr. Jose Moreno, Anaheim City Councilman, speaking to the Wall Street Journal, September 17th, 2018

But I agree, local politicians will now be tripping over themselves to help the Anaheim Resort District as much as they can. That obviously means Disneyland, but we can't forget the Anaheim Convention Center (largest on the West Coast!) and also the Angels and the Honda Center.

Anaheim already lost many small businesses in the Resort District in the last year, and some rather large businesses like the American Sports Center that was a big attendance draw. Many of the businesses that still remain are hanging by a thread, and none are financially strong. Working with Disneyland will be key to building the Resort District back up as much as possible, although it may never quite be the same.

At the very least, anti-business politicians like Dr. Moreno will have to reframe their anti-business debate and realize their voice has been diminished politically by all this.

Dr. Moreno was being very stylish when he said that famous quote in 2018, but suddenly in 2021 he looks like a tone deaf fool.

 

[fctiger]

Yeah I don't think remember them eliminating the APs. They reconfigured the options and went thru a whole round of refunding the existing APs and pro-rating new passes, but they always intended fod them to be around... Just more expensive.

If the plan to get rid of the APs fails, and they do bring back discounting, what are the chances they will fall back into the same "why pay for more parking if we can't recoup the cost" logic they were using for the last 20 years?

They may end up needing the parking, but not really wanting it.

They didn't eliminate all the APs, I should've been more clearer, but they stopped NEW people from getting APs a few weeks before DCA opened. I know this because I tried to get one lol. I remember being at the ticket booth asking about it and the attendant said they have stopped all AP sales because, and you can't make this up, 'they are afraid California Adventure is going to be too popular and they don't want people at the hotels complaining they can't get in if it reaches capacity every day'. I still chuckle remembering that 20 years later!

Now of course, it's been 20 years later, their expectations and goals have shifted a lot. Maybe something in their research suggest the park will be popular enough with just multi day tickets or something. But we probably won't see the resort operating at full capacity probably for a full year or even into 2023, so for now, it may not be a huge issue.

And none of this had anything to do with the eastern parking lot. I actually agree, it just doesn't seem as needed now. They built an entire Pixar parking garage for GE and that never filled up that summer because so many APs were blocked out, so I don't see the need for yet ANOTHER parking structure for a long long time.

 

[Nirya]

They didn't eliminate all the APs, I should've been more clearer, but they stopped NEW people from getting APs a few weeks before DCA opened. I know this because I tried to get one lol. I remember being at the ticket booth asking about it and the attendant said they have stopped all AP sales because, and you can't make this up, 'they are afraid California Adventure is going to be too popular and they don't want people at the hotels complaining they can't get in if it reaches capacity every day'. I still chuckle remembering that 20 years later!
Now of course, it's been 20 years later, their expectations and goals have shifted a lot. Maybe something in their research suggest the park will be popular enough with just multi day tickets or something. But we probably won't see the resort operating at full capacity probably for a full year or even into 2023, so for now, it may be a huge issue.

And none of this had anything to do with the eastern parking lot. I actually agree, it just doesn't seem as needed now. They built an entire Pixar parking garage for GE and that never filled up that summer because so many APs were blocked out, so I don't see the need for yet ANOTHER parking structure for a long long time.

We are talking about the same company that went over the top just a few years ago because they though SW:GE was going to be a massively-popular success, and then were tripping over themselves trying to get people back into the parks when the area turned into a ghost town. I really doubt this company has learned all that much about overprojecting success.

 

[fctiger]

We are talking about the same company that went over the top just a few years ago because they though SW:GE was going to be a massively-popular success, and then were tripping over themselves trying to get people back into the parks when the area turned into a ghost town. I really doubt this company has learned all that much about overprojecting success.

Exactly! This is literally my point. Every time they tried this approach and it works too well then they panic lol. And that's literally what they thought would happen with GE and that it would be such a huge pull that it would bring in people from all over the world to see it while trying to mitigate the crowds at the same time. Well that didn't happen either! Not only did less locals show up because they didn't have APs to go more often, not even more hotel guests showed up, which was, once again the entire point.

So that's why I don't really understand or buy they want or even expect a lot more out of towners to be big enough to carry the resort. That's why I think this is ONLY being done because they know they have to limit capacity in a big way for awhile. But if you're freaking out when your new billion dollar Star Wars land didn't bring in the tourists I just don't know how they suddenly think it's going to be any different now? Especially with such an economic downturn and many people still afraid to get on planes. I know WDW and USO are doing well but they are still at capped capacity. I doubt either would fill up like the old days because there are way less people flying in to America right now.

That's why I never buy this 'the resort can depend more on vacationers' mantra because every time they try....just a little, it backfires and then they are back to local discounting and bring a friend programs.

APs will be back for sure. They may call it something else and more restrictions, but it will be back.

 

[TP2000]

They didn't eliminate all the APs, I should've been more clearer, but they stopped NEW people from getting APs a few weeks before DCA opened. I know this because I tried to get one lol. I remember being at the ticket booth asking about it and the attendant said they have stopped all AP sales because, and you can't make this up, 'they are afraid California Adventure is going to be too popular and they don't want people at the hotels complaining they can't get in if it reaches capacity every day'. I still chuckle remembering that 20 years later!

Now of course, it's been 20 years later, their expectations and goals have shifted a lot...

Agreed. But in defense of the ticket booth attendant, he was only mirroring what all his big bosses were saying at the time.

In the spirit of media quotes that have not aged well, it's not only Dr. Moreno that has been caught saying a bonehead remark out loud. Here's one that then Vice President George Kalogridis said to the LA TImes in January, 2001 for a story about how wildly popular and crowded DCA would be when it opened in three weeks...

“Come early in the day or come later, after the park clears out again,” said George Kalogridis, senior vice president of Disney operations in Anaheim. “Hopefully, with Disneyland right across the esplanade and Downtown Disney right there, we won't have to turn people away from the resort.”

The Most Jam-Packed Theme Park on Earth?

Attracting visitors won't be a problem for Disney's soon-to-open California Adventure. But coping with the expected hordes may be another matter.

www.latimes.com

That quote got instantly translated into a popular assumption in early 2001, that DCA was going to be so wildly popular that it would sell out on weekends and most holiday periods through 2001. And thus, visitors to Anaheim would have to settle for Disneyland when they couldn't get into DCA.

Obviously, that storyline never played out in 2001. And it hasn't played out yet for DCA in the last 20 years, even though they've now poured several Billion dollars into DCA trying to fix all the cheap mistakes they made in 1998-2001 at that park. Oops!

 

[CaptinEO]

It is always possible the strategy will fail, but with Chapek going on TV basically saying "less is more" and promising they can make more money with fewer people in the park, well it seems like it would be a bad time to suggest spending on additional capacity they may not need.

I think long term they will still want to utilize some of that space and reconfigure things, but it will be a couple years before they have a solid plan (and know whether the APs are coming back or not) to present to the city for approval.

Which actually brings up another point: this isn't really more likely to make the city council vote yes on the Eastern Gateway because they were never really against it. It was the local businesses that opposed it and raised the concern.

The less is more talk is fraud to the investors of Disney, just like him pretending the company is doing great this last year when all their major businesses were impacted. It's all word smithing.

Yes when Disneyland gets intolerable, no one wants to shop and buy food, but there's a limit to that. GE adds capacity to the park. Adding capacity will always benefit them as they can still maintain their perfect ratio.

 

[flutas]

It is always possible the strategy will fail, but with Chapek going on TV basically saying "less is more" and promising they can make more money with fewer people in the park, well it seems like it would be a bad time to suggest spending on additional capacity they may not need.

I think long term they will still want to utilize some of that space and reconfigure things, but it will be a couple years before they have a solid plan (and know whether the APs are coming back or not) to present to the city for approval.

Which actually brings up another point: this isn't really more likely to make the city council vote yes on the Eastern Gateway because they were never really against it. It was the local businesses that opposed it and raised the concern.

As I understand it, this project is going to be going out to local resort businesses, neighborhoods and government officials. Trying to get them all on board.

For another blurb about the branding of this project, and it's goal...

 

[CaptinEO]

Isn't that quote wonderful?

It's really a beautiful little gift that Dr. Moreno gave us when he said that on purpose in a planned sit-down interview with the Journal.

"It’s as if somehow we should feel fortunate that Walt Disney chose Anaheim,” -Dr. Jose Moreno, Anaheim City Councilman, speaking to the Wall Street Journal, September 17th, 2018

But I agree, local politicians will now be tripping over themselves to help the Anaheim Resort District as much as they can. That obviously means Disneyland, but we can't forget the Anaheim Convention Center (largest on the West Coast!) and also the Angels and the Honda Center.

Anaheim already lost many small businesses in the Resort District in the last year, and some rather large businesses like the American Sports Center that was a big attendance draw. Many of the businesses that still remain are hanging by a thread, and none are financially strong. Working with Disneyland will be key to building the Resort District back up as much as possible, although it may never quite be the same.

At the very least, anti-business politicians like Dr. Moreno will have to reframe their anti-business debate and realize their voice has been diminished politically by all this.

Dr. Moreno was being very stylish when he said that famous quote in 2018, but suddenly in 2021 he looks like a tone deaf fool.

I really wish they could use this time to get rid of all the resort fees and taxes that plague Disneyland and Las Vegas visitors.

 

[fctiger]

Agreed. But in defense of the ticket booth attendant, he was only mirroring what all his big bosses were saying at the time.

In the spirit of media quotes that have not aged well, it's not only Dr. Moreno that has been caught saying a bonehead remark out loud. Here's one that then Vice President George Kalogridis said to the LA TImes in January, 2001 for a story about how wildly popular and crowded DCA would be when it opened in three weeks...

“Come early in the day or come later, after the park clears out again,” said George Kalogridis, senior vice president of Disney operations in Anaheim. “Hopefully, with Disneyland right across the esplanade and Downtown Disney right there, we won't have to turn people away from the resort.”

The Most Jam-Packed Theme Park on Earth?

Attracting visitors won't be a problem for Disney's soon-to-open California Adventure. But coping with the expected hordes may be another matter.

www.latimes.com

That quote got instantly translated into a popular assumption in early 2001, that DCA was going to be so wildly popular that it would sell out on weekends and most holiday periods through 2001. And thus, visitors to Anaheim would have to settle for Disneyland when they couldn't get into DCA.

Obviously, that storyline never played out in 2001. And it hasn't played out yet for DCA in the last 20 years, even though they've now poured several Billion dollars into DCA trying to fix all the cheap mistakes they made in 1998-2001 at that park. Oops!

Oh I know, I certainly wasn't blaming him! That's what they were all told, probably for months. They were all prepared for this tsunami of Disney fans storming the gates to their first second gate park after forty years of just DL, so it was just a natural assumption. And of WDW all the second gate parks were super busy when they first opened. They didn't stay that way, but at the beginning, people naturally wanted to see the newest parks.

But that was probably the other issue. WDW relied on multiday passes for decades at that point because it was mostly people from out of town. Not so for DL, it was the APs that kept them going throughout the year. And no one at WDW thought to limit the passes people actually used. Every time they tried it for APs, it just always ended up badly.

Right now, everything is very different. And people, especially locals are going to be hungry to get into the parks again. Many will happily pay full price. But how long will that last? I'm just not convinced. And again, maybe if DCA was just a better park from the get go, who knows? Maybe all of their crazy expectations would've came true and then some. But now they spent the first decade alone trying to convince people DCA was actually a worthy Disney park. NOT as good as DL, just that it's worth paying for on its own....and I still don't think they convinced enough people because when you pay literally the same price for something, you can;t help but to compare the value.