Any Monorail News?

[flynnibus]

As far as 'not a lot of stations'.

You need at least one per resort and park. Three resorts have them, and two parks. That leaves 19 resorts, 2 parks, 2 water parks, and Downtown Disney. Yeah, 24 stations isn't a lot.

You math assumes a stop at EVERY resort.. which Disney wouldn't do for lots a reasons.

It's a lot harder to justify higher rates when you can't differentiate travel options...

You can't put a stop at every point of interest.. the system simply breaks down in efficiency. One train can't go everywhere. It doesn't work, and that's why no transportation system in any major city is built that way.

Every transportation system is based on tiers and feeder networks. Transfers are not just a 'construction' necessity, they are a necessity for efficiency and capacities.

Any expansion would focus on prime points of interest and prime resorts and then would build up transportation sub-stations (like the TTC) at cluster points around the property. Lesser properties would take feeder networks into these sub-stations.

You can't think of connecting every resort to a unverisal access network because this also limits your growth and potential. Eventually you will break into a tiered system, so its always better to build that model from the start.

Then add in the cost and difficulty of making the system efficient without a large number of transfers between lines and trains to get everywhere, and you're talking about a monumental task.

Every major transportation system that covers multiple destinations and orientations includes transfers. It's part of the package.

But I do not like to have all this false information thrown out, convincing people hat monorails are inefficient and complicated when they are not, and people take these biases with them when deciding on real applications of real transit needs in our cities.

Yes.. the success of monorails in the world vs other transport systems are being held down by a few Disney Fans! There are reasons they aren't the transportation method of choice throughout the world... and it has nothing to do with Disney!

How exactly would you make an efficient system without running it to the resorts? You can't. If you follow the belief that one transfer is the most people will want to do, you can't do it without running the monorail to all of the resorts.

History and existing implementations prove you wrong. And your assumption of 'one transfer' is that universal for all types of trips? If you build a high capacity system with direct access to most points of interest, with a feeder network to those points of interest.. you can minimize transfers.

But for every transfer you remove.. that is more stops your 'single ride' takes. So simply removing transfers is not the answer. Unless you make a complete mesh network (which no one does for obvious reasons), transfers and stops are always a compromise to reduce overall trip times.

I still want a multi-staged omnimover transportation system that includes multiple speeds (load, long distance, etc). Think any package handling belt system in any warehouse or distribution plant.. and you get the idea.

Such a system provides consistent access times, predictable transport times, and depending on complexities can provide varying capacities.

I'd much rather see 2billion in investment in a FORWARDING looking concept.. rather then a backwards looking concept like expansion of the monorail.

 

[mousermerf]

There is, btw, a functional monorail system that has multiple stops and locations - several track switches - and even "shuttle" spurs that the trains go down making their loop that exists in the US.

I recommend visitting the Tampa International Airport before saying monorails can't possibly service thousands of people to many locations efficiently.

 

[Bratstarman]

I supplied information to back up my statements. I haven't seen you or anyone who says the numbers are wrong do anything to refute them.

But I'M the one without the facts.

Ficticious numbers and facts are quite different things.

In 1955 it cost Walt $1 M per mile to build the Disneyland monorail - that is a fact.

The inflation factor between then and now is about a factor of 8 - that is a fact.

So your "facts" rely on the assumption that there is something unique about monorail construction that outstrips inflation by a factor of 12.

Based on your "facts" monorails cost almost $20,000 a foot.

Hardly credible, and frankly not worth the bother. More than likely it is just a troll.

 

[benji]

I'd say none for any more resorts.

None!!!

Use Epcot, MK/TTC, and AK as hubs. Just run a new line from Epcot to MGM and then to AK.

AKL buses would drop people off at AK, as would the All Stars.

Coronado, Pop, Carribbean, and the DVC group and the Port Orleans resorts would drop people off at Epcot.

Swan/Dolphin/Yacht/Beach/Boardwalk have th option of going to MGM or they can go through Epcot.

MK area resorts goto the TTC.

I agree!!! That's what I have been saying for two days. Just run stations to the parks not the resorts. But keep the bus sytsem to and from the resorts.

 

[unkadug]

Champion is starting to remind me of a certain blue friend...

The thought has crossed my mind too!

I still want a multi-staged omnimover transportation system that includes multiple speeds (load, long distance, etc). Think any package handling belt system in any warehouse or distribution plant.. and you get the idea.

Excellent idea! :wave:

 

[flynnibus]

There is, btw, a functional monorail system that has multiple stops and locations - several track switches - and even "shuttle" spurs that the trains go down making their loop that exists in the US.

I recommend visitting the Tampa International Airport before saying monorails can't possibly service thousands of people to many locations efficiently.

by 'many' do you mean 4? Tampa's was unique that it was the first fully automated one... but by no means is it large or very complex.. especially to the scale being discussed here.

Tampa's is less then 1km total. You'll also notice Tampa's model hasn't really been copied everywhere... yet most major airports have similar transportation systems.. yet not based on monorails.. Coincidence?

 

[mousermerf]

Tampa has both the parking monorail (5 stops) which includes the one-way spurs, as well as the terminal/concourse monorails.

 

[scottnj1966]

WDW's monorail system has always been more then just a transportation system. It is part of the feeling of the place. Without them you would lose alot of what WDW is.
I have been going since the 70's and the first thing I always look for and want to see is a monorail coming down the rail.
Everyone mentions the cost of adding on. WDW makes billions a year. They make millions in just popcorn and pretzel sales. So using some money to add on is not that much of an issue.
You also have to factor in the use of busses would go down. It would relive some of the traffic the busses cause also. WDW is getting very congested at times. Remove the need for busses and cars and you relive the congestion.
The monorail is clean....these days it seems clean is better. I dont care if you use bio deisel in a bus, its still dirty, and still loud.

I wanted to mention Disneylands monorail system. It is nothing like WDW's system. When I finally got to visit that park I was very surprised with it. It is very short, you have to bend down to get in, all seats are hard plastic and you had to sit down. They only have two stops, downtown disney and tomorrowland. You had to have a park pass to ride because of that. The monorails did not stop at the resorts. They really were not used as a real transportation system. Disney changed that idea at WDW.
Disneyland had to update the monorails. They were disgusting. Mildew on the walls, rust, and just falling apart. Our monorails will last for many more years. Disney would have not upgraded ours in the 80's if not for two factors. They were combustable, and they needed to hold more passengers. Other then that our old monorails worked perfect, they used two of them in Las Vegas.


One day more then money will dictate what Disney does....Just imagine what the parks would look like if Walt himself based everything on how much something costs and not the feeling he wanted to give his guests.

http://www.bigfloridacountry.com/monorail.htm

 

[benji]

Scott I also agree with you there are more positives than negatives. Monorail is also the first thing I look for driving on property. It feels like home when I see the monorail. Less busses and more monorails means less congestion on the roads. Not all of Disney's money has to be for new rides. Monorail is also part of the disney world experience. Cost of bus up keep can be turned over for monorail up keep. It all makes do when you think about it.

 

[mayoki]

Well, you all have missed the obvious solution, take the monorail underground and that takes care of the problems with elevation and will cut cost by approx 75%. I know, you may believe "the water table is too high" crowd like engineers and scientists, or the "underground would cost even more" accountants, but I think it would work. An underground monorail in each direction to the parks and DTD, and spur lines of the Peoplemover to the resorts. Remember, it you can dream it, you can do it!!!:king:

 

[flynnibus]

Without them you would lose alot of what WDW is.

No, its something Disney MADE into an icon of the park. That doesn't mean it can't make something ELSE into such an icon as well.

WDW makes billions a year. They make millions in just popcorn and pretzel sales. So using some money to add on is not that much of an issue.

I'm glad you are optimistic.. but the park does not make billions a year. In fact, last year the entire Parks division (all the parks combined) made 1.5 bil op income. That's income.. not profit.

You also have to factor in the use of busses would go down. It would relive some of the traffic the busses cause also. WDW is getting very congested at times. Remove the need for busses and cars and you relive the congestion.

Traffic? Conjested? If you think WDW's roads are conjested.. you need to get out more. Buses are cheap to operate.. that's why they are so popular and always the first form of transit in place.

The monorail is clean....these days it seems clean is better. I dont care if you use bio deisel in a bus, its still dirty, and still loud.

Monorails simply shift the pollution from the car to the power plant. You are still burning oil or other fossil fuels to power those monorails.

Cost of bus up keep can be turned over for monorail up keep. It all makes do when you think about it.

Except you are ignoring economies of scale and costs for bits. Buses.. used everywhere.. cheap parts and competitive suppliers. Monorails? Not so much.

 

[artbell2]

I can tell there are a lot of people who are very passionate about the monorail! Now I know what I just started. I've had a very busy week at my job and haven't had much time to read the whole thread.

My viewpoint is this, as big as Animal Kingdom is getting I would at least think that Animal Kingdom deserves a monorail route. Also if Disney wants Downtown Disney and the new Disney West development to thrive, sending the monorail down there might be a good idea. Although there are logistics to that so it may not be feasible to go that way.

Mike

 

[benji]

I can tell there are a lot of people who are very passionate about the monorail! Now I know what I just started. I've had a very busy week at my job and haven't had much time to read the whole thread.

My viewpoint is this, as big as Animal Kingdom is getting I would at least think that Animal Kingdom deserves a monorail route. Also if Disney wants Downtown Disney and the new Disney West development to thrive, sending the monorail down there might be a good idea. Although there are logistics to that so it may not be feasible to go that way.

Mike

Good idea Mike Monorail could help Downtown Disney also.

 

[landauh]

Wait, so if I'm staying at AKL, and want to go to MK, I have to get on a bus, which goes to AK. Then I go and get in line (which is HUGE because its for three parks) and get on a monorail, which, depending on direction, either stops at MGM, and then Epcot, and then TTC or to the TTC first. There, I transfer again to the MK monorail, after waiting in line again. And finally I arrive at the MK?

What a great idea! Extremely efficient.

Since we're running the busses anyway, why don't we just run them to the parks and save the stupidity of two transfers and a roundabout route?

AKL has buses that go directly to and from MK.

 

[benji]

Sorry I posted in the wrong thread.

 

[Champion]

AKL has buses that go directly to and from MK.

...

 

[JML42691]

Well, you all have missed the obvious solution, take the monorail underground and that takes care of the problems with elevation and will cut cost by approx 75%. I know, you may believe "the water table is too high" crowd like engineers and scientists, or the "underground would cost even more" accountants, but I think it would work. An underground monorail in each direction to the parks and DTD, and spur lines of the Peoplemover to the resorts. Remember, it you can dream it, you can do it!!!:king:

First off, I like the monorail and support it, just not the expansion of it.

Building the monrail underground would NOT cut costs at all. The water table's level wouldn't be the major problem. Boston has spent the last 15+ years taking a 2-mile stretch of highway (I-93) and attempted to put it underground along with several other roadways. As seen by last summer's actions in Boston, tunnels are not always the safest choice. A person died as a result of a major cross-country highway being put underground. Tunnels take a while to build, are entemely expensive (the entire Boston project is pushing $15+ billion.) Evacuating an above ground stucture is much easier then evacuating a tunnel. The costs, time to build, and safety issues are only the first reasons of why Disney would not build a tunnel. Costs would not go down 75%, they would skyrocket several hundred, if not thousands pecentage as compared to the estimate of building a monorail at $2 billion.

And to support Champion's claim, the busses are fine as is, other alternatives are available to make them more effecient without having to expand another forms of transportation. I think that a good addition to the Disney bus fleet would be the "slinky busses" (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...2.agr.jpg/800px-SilverLineDualModeSL2.agr.jpg). These busses could help accomadate larger crowds for bigger resorts and this would make wait times shorter. There are many more alternatives to improve the existing forms of transportation under a reasonable cost without having to spend an outrageous cost by expanding the monorail.

 

[flynnibus]

Just a comment.. I agree building above ground is cheaper then below.. virtually always.

But you really can't compare the big dig project which is attempting to bury the city's roads under the EXISTING city... with a project like this in WDW where they can simply strip, dig, and bury the tunnels virtually everywhere as the lines wouldn't need to go under existing structures. Even the roads it would have to traverse would likely be cheaper to strip, dig and bury rather then try to tunnel under. Nearly all routes (with a few exceptions) are not exclusive routes on WDW property.. most can be reached via several directions.

 

[marni1971]

Okay - I couldn`t stay out any longer. Monorail expansion talk it is. Going back to a concept discussed a few years ago, the most cost effective route would be the 1.3 miles to MGM, followed by the 2.4 mile route to DAK - in effect a 3.7 mile line from Epcot. One thing not mentioned before I don`t think is ditching the Futureworld loop as one line; having come from the MK and stopped at en extended Epcot station before passing SSE, the line breaks off the loop and passes near to Imagination / Canada to cross Av of the Stars and run parallel to Epcot Resorts Blvd. This is one crucial point; the track needs to be accessable, both during and after construction, and next to existing roads as much as possible is ideal.

After an Epcot resorts station stop, the line passes the Boardwalk, crosses E BV Drive and enters the MGM parking lot, with a station north or east of Prospect Av (bus station / Indy area)

The line (either built as one or another future extention) then parallels South Studio Drive (autoplaza) and crosses World Drive, skirts the intersection then follows Osceola Parkway to the DAK parking lot. Here the most cost effective system of return is to have a switch - drive into the station, then drive out on the same track in the opposite direction and immiediatley switch to the return track. A loop would be nice, but expensive. As would carrying on to AKL - especially since only on eresort would benefit.

Speaking of resorts, most are catered for.

AKL could have a speedramp line (as used in DLPs car park) or WEDway between it and the DAK station.

A single two way station at W Buena Vista Drive would have similar going north and south to serve the All Stars, Blizzard Beach and Coronado. Exact local resort services would be another matter; loop the SR / WEDway around them, or retain a local internal bus service?

The Epcot resorts would be served by a station NE of the boardwalk, or on an alternate line that passes north and west of the YB club and between the Boardwalk and Swan / Dolphin (slightly longer, trickier to build -crossing the Crescent lake bridge and thus expense versus convienience questions)

I can see no alternative for the SE corner of WDW than to have either a high frequence WEDway or a third monorail line, from a 3rd platform at Epcot (a new T&TC) - again a switchback line would be cheaper than a loop.

Avoiding a 4th monorail line if need be, a bi directional WEDway would run north south from Pop via the CBR to probably the Epcot T&TC (maybe going so far as World of Sports) - an alternate station on the monorail line would be near the EC Drive / E BV Drive intersection; a bi directional WEDway station or 2 monorail platforms here would cater for the WEDway from the south, and one from OKW and Port Orleans. This main east west line would terminate on the west car park of Downtown Disney - if a monorail, then it would link with the following WEDways, if already a WEDway from Epcot it could continue further as follows.

A new or longer Epcot line WEDway would run east through the DD parking lot - with a station for Pleasure Island, the Market, and hopefully also service the Hotel Plaza and Saratoga. A separate WEDway would serve Typhoon Lagoon, and connect with the DD parking lot west most station.

Regarding the east resorts, unless something amazing happens and the ground can hold a resort on Seven Seas South East shore, a line serving Wilderness lodge and FW would need to terminate at the existing T&TC. This line could also serve the new Bonnet Creek resorts if desired, unless the Orleans line carried further north.

At the end of the day, it`s nice to fantasise, but busses won`t go on for ever. Management know this. Each monorail line would need a linking spur to share cars, and new barns would need to be built. WEDWay storage would need to be built. The infrastructure price would be initially high obviously. How convienient the routes are to each area is down to price. The 1974 in-house Community Transport division of WED actually designed 8 monorail train variants, and 2 enclosed WEDway car variants for just such a network.

Here`s a diagram of the ideas discussed above; obviously it`s that toss up again between price and convienience.

 

[artbell2]

What really should have happend when Disney built AK... They should have added the monorail loop to it before it opened. I wonder if scheduling problems forced Disney to take the monorail equation out of it. I went to WDW back in 1998 right after AK opened and couldn't figure the whole deal out as to why they were shuttling passengers via buses to the place. To this day I still don't understand why the didn't go ahead and build the new line when the park was being built.

I agree with what others are saying keep the monorail strictly to parks not all resorts.

Although another way of looking at this, if Disney is going to keep branching out such as the Western Development, buses are the answer.

Does anyone know how much more land Disney owns? Acres or square miles? I know they own all that swamp land down there too.

The monorail is an icon of WDW. I went to WDW back in 1988 when I was six years old. My first experience at WDW occurred at night on the monorail. Riding the monorail (Mark IV at the time) and seeing the Magic Kingdom lit in blue colors gives goosebumps to a child. Same goes with SpaceShip Earth. Seeing that sucker lit up at night is an awestruck experience. It literally takes your breath away. Disney needs to keep that in mind. Packed in a sardine bus going through parking lots and side streets isn't that exciting to a six year old. Riding the monorail is what brings Disney magic to life in my opinion.

Mike