Eddie Sotto's take on the current state of the parks

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WDW1974

WDW1974

Well-Known Member
FantasyPurveyor said:
While I'm probably a hardcore fan of Disney, my house has only two Disney items on display. A vintage Fantasyland 20k attraction poster and a very heavy copper lamp of Ariel thematically decorated in a Jules Verne style with a green sea glass shade. Why is that? Quite simply put, the merchandise offered is terrible.
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It really depends. Largely, I agree with you. Although I have far more Disney items on display than you do.

But many folks would never know. I have a bacchanalia dancer statue on a marble base on my family room coffee table. It cost $750 originally and was sold in 2004-05 in DCA's Tower Gift shop (ToT exit). It is a beautiful piece and Disney only in where it was sold (and commissioned for).

Today, that shop sells largely tees and crap, including items from Pirates and NBC that have no thematic basis for being there.

FantasyPurveyor said:
Many of the premiere attractions at WDW utterly fail in their merchandise concept and strategy. When getting off of Expedition: Everest, why are we greeted with cheap t-shirts and plush? How is this merchandise in any way reflective and evocative of the highly themed environment around it? Others on here have derided the transformation of Main Street into a strip mall from one end to the other. I agree.
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Well, to be fair EE's tees are looking better these days ... and they at least have some books that are about the Himalayas and the creatures that inhabit them.

MK's Main Street does have the look of an outlet mall, especially the entire west side Emporium. All sense of theme and place are tossed out the window there.

FantasyPurveyor said:
Why does the story end when we get off of the ride?
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Because the business model changed in the 1990s to one where show didn't matter in merchandise unless it added to the bottom line ... and where every shop had to meet specific profit numbers.

That's why Liberty Square combined three unique shops into one giant Disney Christmas character crapfest.

FantasyPurveyor said:
I'm headed to DLP in a few weeks as part of a larger trip to "The Continent". It will be my first experience of DLP and I'm eager to see how they have executed the merchandise strategy over there.
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DLP is great, but I can tell you merchandise is an issue there. It's largely the same character stuff from place to place (you might like it more because it is different than the WDW and DL lines, but that's as far as it goes) ... Frontierland does still actually have some western themed merchandise and Adventureland's selection was better on my last visit. They also do have more things that I am into like postcards and soundtracks/CDs. And they did have some nice non-Disney stuff in the big store in Studio One at DSP.

I'm headed back to DLP early this fall and am anxious to see what's changed in the two years since I was last there.

Oh, and they had a great western merchandise shop in Disney Village ... that was just reimagined ... and in its place is a Starbucks!!!
At least, I know where I can get an overpriced latte now!
 
Eddie Sotto

Eddie Sotto

Premium Member
MiklCraw4d said:
Really? How far along had that first team gone, and how was it different from what we got? And who would make the call to axe a project?
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Indy has gone through many versions and had many different designers on it. I got it three times! This last "inheritance" was from it being an AA heavy "Nazi's with Machine Guns" action infused affair that was way over budget. Lots of big scenes. Branching tracks that drove up costs as well.

My job was to gently "release" that team so they could be reassigned, assemble a new one (that's how you get to be unpopular) and start over creatively and "management" wanted us to bring it in for a lower number overall, which we did. We came up with several options. There was the half/walk thru, half/Ore Car Coaster ride scenario (personal favorite) You had to take the JC to get out to the temple and get off!. There was a jeep ride which is like what we have to an extent but it went backwards too, and a few other options. All had to hit a certain lower number. I pitched in favor of sharing one large space as a "big set" used in a number of ways to get the most bang. Tony liked that because he sparked to the notion of how Knott's Mine Train used one big room to it's advantage. We knew that would work. The ore car version was nixed as too much like Big Thunder, but the room stayed. Tony topped the Jeep idea by making the jeep a moving simulator and figured out a track plan. We had to juggle the scenes to get it to work, as the choice room was further in the show, etc. Once we were back on track, I stayed on for a while but then went on to redo Adventureland (JC and shops) and supervise design for DL, while Tony creatively took the reins back on Indy. I'm sure I'm messing this story up to a degree, but that's basically it.
 
Eddie Sotto

Eddie Sotto

Premium Member
We'll always have Paris..

MiklCraw4d said:
Yeesh. I can only imagine. While the Main Street you built looks lovely (I haven't had the opportunity to go there yet), I would have loved to have seen the original vision. It seems right for that park, somehow. Something of how we're viewed by the French through early cinema... Anyway, I've seen renderings so I know the aesthetic and the idea for the elevated railroad, but what were some of the other key features you'd like to have seen realized?
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Page 21 Post 301
 This is a good starting point to hear some of the early MSUSA 1920's ideas and how it was killed. Enjoy! The Disneyland Paris Book has lots of my unbuilt art from that period as well.

We had a "Speakeasy" with a Jazz age floor show. Crystal Palace Restaurant with crystal piano and soloist that rises out of the floor. A Theater with history of early film, etc. Automata exhibit, The El Trains that took you through a victorian future city diorama, etc.
 
Eddie Sotto

Eddie Sotto

Premium Member
WDW1974 said:
DLP is great, but I can tell you merchandise is an issue there. It's largely the same character stuff from place to place (you might like it more because it is different than the WDW and DL lines, but that's as far as it goes)
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He's right. It was bleak years ago and I've never heard it get any better. I would love to buy something but never saw anything I'd want to own other than a Mug or something. The audience is not as souvenir crazy as they are here.
 
Eddie Sotto

Eddie Sotto

Premium Member
MiklCraw4d said:
The idea of having a drink or park walk with Bob Gurr is just astounding. That's living history - just amazing. An experience few of us will ever have. I think of all the people that I wanted to meet but now never will - Marc D., Hench, Frank & Ollie, etc...
Of course I wouldn't mind having a drink with Eddie either! :)
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I guess I'm lucky, I have drinks with Eddie every night!
As you bring out, every year there are less and less of these great people around to meet and listen to. Looking back, I feel so honored to have been at the right place at the end of the right time to get to see some of them at work, like Ryman. I think that's the big thing us 2G'ers got, was a chance to learn from the "real deal".

Herb Ryman used to take me to what he called the "Dinosaur Lunch". It was a "two drink minimum" Thursday lunch group of the old guys at some leather booth industry restaurant. You had to be invited. Ken Anderson was usually there along with Bill Martin, Fred Hope Sr., Collin Campbell, Clem Hall (Hall of Presidents artist) and Herbie. others would show up sporadically. After all that vodka it was hard to plow through the rest of my Thursday! These names you may not know, but there were mainly art directors and came mostly from Fox and MGM Studios to do DL and WDW, guys I looked up to and ply with questions as a designer. Bill Martin did lots of the WDW Main St., Hope did the Crystal Palace and Town Square. I was the new rookie Main Streeter. Herbie vouched for me as his guest so I was always welcome. (Hench saw DLP MSUSA and asked "how did you get away with it?"). No management ever came. One time I was surprised to find out that Clem Hall remembered meeting my grandfather at MGM where they were both scenic artists! You never knew what would come up.

Ken Anderson was the main man and you'll never know a nicer one. They'd talk about the trips to South America with Walt, how cool Paris was, these guys knew art and design and that was fun to sit and listen to, etc.
This is what you REALLY miss about WDI. It's own internal legacy. When Herbie got cancer and was sick, he told me he was leaving me his seat at the lunch. that meant more than any painting or gift. Things dwindled when Ken and Fred died and when I quit Disney, I stopped going because I worked far away. It may not even exist now. Anyway, you brought up the legends and that was a truly magical way to experience them, unplugged and juiced up.
 
F

FantasyPurveyor

New Member
Merchandise, continued.

Eddie Sotto said:
He's right. It was bleak years ago and I've never heard it get any better. I would love to buy something but never saw anything I'd want to own other than a Mug or something. The audience is not as souvenir crazy as they are here.
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What is the draw then? WHat is going to compel people to shop at a store in the parks that is a fancier version of Wal-Mart? Shouldn't there be a lure, whether it's the $750 statues that '74 referenced, or my $XXX Ariel lamp that brings people in the stores? AND while they are in there, then you hit them with the lower priced but still quality and relevant to the story merchandise. Save the loss-leaders for elsewhere. Not everything needs to have a character on it.

I was hoping DLP wouldn't be as tween-crazy as WDW seems to be, but alas it appears that won't be the case. I will see though!

And whatever happened to the Art of Disney stores? It seems that even Disney's high-end "limited edition" art is now mass-produced crap with an even higher price tag. Does anyone remember the old Art of Disney store in Epcot that, if I can trust my childhood memories, was on a second floor in what is now Mouse Gears?

I wonder how many Imagineers have fought the battle of higher quality merchandise in what has now become the obligatory gift shop exit? Eddie referenced the art of padding one's cost estimates of rides and ensuring critical effects were preserved by making sure they didn't stand alone. I suppose it's all too easy to carve out higher quality merchandise and replace it with t-shirts from the current "dirt-poor" third world country of the moment.

I suppose it speaks to our culture of lower-quality disposable goods, rather than goods meant to last a lifetime. After all, where is the profit in THAT?
 
Eddie Sotto

Eddie Sotto

Premium Member
FantasyPurveyor said:
What is the draw then? WHat is going to compel people to shop at a store in the parks that is a fancier version of Wal-Mart? Shouldn't there be a lure, whether it's the $750 statues that '74 referenced, or my $XXX Ariel lamp that brings people in the stores?
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Believe it or not, that is their strategy. Merchandise likes to have some giant mickey plush or some "wow" display (huge snowglobe) or something to get you into the shop, which can be a big piece of merchandise that is insane, or an animated object. We did get Main Street Motors into Paris where it was a real antique car dealership surrounded by souvenir car stuff, etc. Plush and other better performing items sold better so we lost that battle and had a car in there for a while.
 
WDW1974

WDW1974

Well-Known Member
Eddie Sotto said:
Page 21 Post 301
This is a good starting point to hear some of the early MSUSA 1920's ideas and how it was killed. Enjoy! The Disneyland Paris Book has lots of my unbuilt art from that period as well.
Click to expand...

Great book ... maybe I should bring it cross the country so you can autograph it ... or would that cause the value to plummet?:eek: (just kidding!!!)

Eddie Sotto said:
We had a "Speakeasy" with a Jazz age floor show. Crystal Palace Restaurant with crystal piano and soloist that rises out of the floor. A Theater with history of early film, etc. Automata exhibit, The El Trains that took you through a victorian future city diorama, etc.
Click to expand...

It would have been phenomenal, although you should really take it to a tribute of your (and all of the teams) work that MSUSA at DLP still is the best ever done. Just amazing. Can't wait to see it again this fall!

Wonder what direction Shanghai will take ... I'm hoping for something different ... and I can't imagine the HK SAR will want them copying the DL look so ... maybe they'll go back to your concept or try something never done?
 
EpcotServo

EpcotServo

Well-Known Member
FantasyPurveyor said:
Many of the premiere attractions at WDW utterly fail in their merchandise concept and strategy. When getting off of Expedition: Everest, why are we greeted with cheap t-shirts and plush? How is this merchandise in any way reflective and evocative of the highly themed environment around it?
Click to expand...

Should have been here this winter. The winter wear collection was AMAZING. The Jacket is fantastic, and I had to get the hat version too. Sadly all that great stuff disappeared with the cool weather. I hope they get more awesome Everest stuff this Christmas too, it's great...
 
Eddie Sotto

Eddie Sotto

Premium Member
WDW1974 said:
Wonder what direction Shanghai will take ... I'm hoping for something different ... and I can't imagine the HK SAR will want them copying the DL look so ... maybe they'll go back to your concept or try something never done?
Click to expand...

Good question. It would be great to see something new and exciting! I'm not sure they "get" Main Street over there, but it is very cute and pretty.
 
Eddie Sotto

Eddie Sotto

Premium Member
WDW1974 said:
Great book ... maybe I should bring it cross the country so you can autograph it ... or would that cause the value to plummet?:eek: (just kidding!!!)
Click to expand...

Better yet, if you're coming all this way, get Tony to sign it, then the value would go up instead:animwink:
 
Eddie Sotto

Eddie Sotto

Premium Member
What it all means

In a strange way it's unfortunate that we spent our childhoods loving these immersive themed experiences. When these $$$$$ attractions get changed and or torn down every year or so, we mourn their passing as if our memories have been altered and we are robbed of "going back in time". It's almost impossible to bring back these mega million dollar rides so it's not like buying some toy you had as a kid on ebay. It's hard to be 12 again and not be jaded. Why couldn't we have just loved a song, the cabin from the family vacation, or the smell of the grass at a ballpark like our parents to resurrect those feelings? Why did it have to have COP, Captain Eo, or the Peoplemover!

I got hate mail once for putting music on SM. The issue was that I had ruined the childhood memory of riding it silent and the net result was that the person felt that their best memories were being destroyed. in caps he wrote YOU HAVE NO IDEA HOW UPSET THIS MAKES ME. In fact, I do.
 
Huck

Huck

Active Member
Eddie Sotto said:
I guess I'm lucky, I have drinks with Eddie every night!
As you bring out, every year there are less and less of these great people around to meet and listen to. Looking back, I feel so honored to have been at the right place at the end of the right time to get to see some of them at work, like Ryman. I think that's the big thing us 2G'ers got, was a chance to learn from the "real deal".

Herb Ryman used to take me to what he called the "Dinosaur Lunch". It was a "two drink minimum" Thursday lunch group of the old guys at some leather booth industry restaurant. You had to be invited. Ken Anderson was usually there along with Bill Martin, Fred Hope Sr., Collin Campbell, Clem Hall (Hall of Presidents artist) and Herbie. others would show up sporadically. After all that vodka it was hard to plow through the rest of my Thursday! These names you may not know, but there were mainly art directors and came mostly from Fox and MGM Studios to do DL and WDW, guys I looked up to and ply with questions as a designer. Bill Martin did lots of the WDW Main St., Hope did the Crystal Palace and Town Square. I was the new rookie Main Streeter. Herbie vouched for me as his guest so I was always welcome. (Hench saw DLP MSUSA and asked "how did you get away with it?"). No management ever came. One time I was surprised to find out that Clem Hall remembered meeting my grandfather at MGM where they were both scenic artists! You never knew what would come up.

Ken Anderson was the main man and you'll never know a nicer one. They'd talk about the trips to South America with Walt, how cool Paris was, these guys knew art and design and that was fun to sit and listen to, etc.
This is what you REALLY miss about WDI. It's own internal legacy. When Herbie got cancer and was sick, he told me he was leaving me his seat at the lunch. that meant more than any painting or gift. Things dwindled when Ken and Fred died and when I quit Disney, I stopped going because I worked far away. It may not even exist now. Anyway, you brought up the legends and that was a truly magical way to experience them, unplugged and juiced up.
Click to expand...

They still have the "Dinosaur Lunch". It's just moved to Downtown Disney Orlando @ T-Rex Cafe!:lookaroun
Seriously, though, I love to hear stories like that. I guess, in a sense, this thread is a kind of "Dinosaur Lunch" for all of us here on the forums! No, I don't mean to call you a Dinosaur, Eddie!:D Just that we are all, hopefully, gleaning some of your experience and applying it to our own local circumstance. So thanks, again, for sharing your experiences. (Okay, how many times have we thanked you? Just goes to show how much we all truly treasure this opportunity. People pay to have lunch with an Imagineer at WDW!)
So, Eddie, how's it feel to be a rock-star?!:wave:
 
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