Four Parks: One Stale World?

jakeman · Nov 4, 2008

Interesting thread.

While I agree that there are always areas for improvements, I disagree that things are as dire as the OP makes them out to be. Additionally, some points are lost in the name calling of both other board members and even the WDW executives. The lack of respect for people in general has always astonished me.

My parents have been visit WDW regularly, since it opened in 1971. There was a time in the early 80's that they did not return for a few years because of the lack of cleaniness to the parks. So to say that the parks are not as clean now as they were may be a matter of opinion.

My question would be: Has the OP communicated his views to Guest Services and taken his/her money elsewhere? Complaining and lamenting on a message board is fine and well within anyones right, but if you are still buying a product that you feel is inferior, what is the incentive for the company to make the product better?

That's really what it comes down to. The OP is just as much part of the problem as the "lowest common denominator" guest if he/she is still spending money at WDW.

Rosso11 · Nov 4, 2008

sleepybear said:
In the past five years, WDW has seen the openings of Mission: Space, Mickey's Philharmagic, Soarin', Expedition Everest and Toy Story Mania. Yup, five of the resort's most popular attractions weren't around five years ago. Not to mention the major refurbs of Pirates, Haunted Mansion, The Seas and Spaceship Earth.

If opening and updating an 'E' Ticket attraction every year is 'stale' in your book, then I'm curious to see your definition of 'fresh.'

I know its long but you need to read the whole thread. Stale does not simply mean new attractions. Disney is a lot more than just rides. WDW1974's definition of stale is a few pages back if you want your answer.

whylightbulb · Nov 4, 2008

yankspy said:
I have to disagree on Dinosaur. Great ride system, one pretty impressive AA, just great fun.
As far as low budgets, I believe TSM had a 70 million dollar budget. I would not exactly call that low.

Dinosaur has a nice ride system with a bare bones show. In my opinion they might as well have placed the track in a warehouse, outfit the track area with not much more than duvatene, turned off the lights, installed a few animatronic dinosaurs and called it a day. Oh wait, that is just about what they did.

If you had seen the original plans for this ride you would probably agree with me. There was a nifty brush fire effect as well as an actual realistic meteor hit for example. Do most guests riding through even realize that there is a meteor hit with the current design? I suppose the constant plot exposition allows riders to know about the meteor, if anyone is really listening. Instead of using visual elements to tell the story we have an actor reading us the plot as we ride through, i.e., "we've got to get in, get that dino and get out before that meteor hits," in case you didn't get that part in the lame pre-show. Don't even get me started on the, "we're not going to make it we're not going to make it...we made it." This is one of the most poorly written shows in the parks and unfortunately there have been plenty to choose from lately.

One could argue that the ride is fun without the story and first class scenic and effects. I would agree to a point. I worked on the Indiana Jones ride system in Glendale so I can't say I fault that part of the show. What I do fault is the amazing scope reduction with respect to scenic, effects and even animatronics. There is a reason why half of the creatures never work.

As far as Toy Story Mania, if it truly had a $70 Million budget I would agree that it would be plenty to pull off an E ticket to be proud of. What happens however is that these published numbers are almost always inflated substantially.

Mission Space is a great example. The complete ride system price had been common knowledge since it was purchased from a well known company that advertised this product. The only things left were, in general terms, Horizons demolition, R & D, Scenic, media, cabin, pre show and post show design and fabrication, ride system customization (pretty minimal), show control, installation and shipping, design, and the big number that usually ends up eating into effects and the elements that make for a Disney quality show, project management and administration. Even the most liberal estimates would put the total attraction cost at somewhere in the $60 to $70 million range. Trust me, that estimate is extremely liberal taking into account the need for Disney's bureaucracy and extras. If memory serves they were saying MS cost well over $100 Million.

Back to Toy Story Mania. Lousy show with a fun game. Extremely minimal scenic and story in the ride itself. is it fun? I would say it is. Is it anywhere in the same leauge as it could be considering Disney's resources and talent pool? The answer unfortunately is a resounding no!

As I stated in an earlier post, why not place passengers on a tour bus with Barbie as she drives us all over Als Toy Barn. Great opportunity for comedy, games that make sense in the context of the story and environment and action/adventure if desired. You could have some interesting and humorous dialog and offer more than simply moving from one screen to the next to play video games. The 4D aspect makes it a bit more fun but Disney used to be known for the extra touches of theming and detail. UV painted flats with nothing but cookie cutter screen assemblies just doesn't cut it in my opinion. The current storyline is senseless and sloppy.

Pumbas Nakasak · Nov 4, 2008

sleepybear said:
In the past five years, WDW has seen the openings of Mission: Space, Mickey's Philharmagic, Soarin', Expedition Everest and Toy Story Mania. Yup, five of the resort's most popular attractions weren't around five years ago. Not to mention the major refurbs of Pirates, Haunted Mansion, The Seas and Spaceship Earth.

If opening and updating an 'E' Ticket attraction every year is 'stale' in your book, then I'm curious to see your definition of 'fresh.'

So 1 attraction in each park over 5 years, and the MK attraction is hardly a major addition, in fact out of the 5 only 2 were additions, the others replacements.

But then what do I know.

hokielutz · Nov 4, 2008

raven said:
I have thought this too for a long time now. The word "Tomorrowland" implies futuristic. The Sci-Fi and Alien theme (Stitch and MILF) are actually "present day" if you watch the animated films on those attractions.

What Tomorrowland seems to be now to me is I-dunno-where-to-put-this-attraction land.

I can probably agree with you here on this. Tomorrow land has gradually lost its identity. It used to be very futurisitc with the Mission to Mars, etc... but now the only attractions that fit the land's name is SM, the formerly named WED Way, and the Astro Orbiters. Everything else is either outdated attractions (CoP and Autopia), or is not really in the right place (Stitch, Buzz, MILFCC) Granted Buzz and Stitch are futuristic in their theming and technology used to present the attractions, but it really doesn't deal with "what Tomorrow holds."

The Autopia/Indy car track, with a bit of investment in new technologies, could really put out vehicles that don't run on standard Lawn Mower motors, just as an example. This is probably one of the tougher parts of the park to theme and keep up to date.... aside from the facades and the three attractions that belong... Tomorrowland really does fall short of its original scope.

kcnole · Nov 4, 2008

Then do us all a favor......Stay home!!!..I'm sorry but to compare Walt Disney World to any other Park out there is Bizarre, There is no comparison what so ever...Well for a place that seems "stale " to you why is it that yes even with the economy it still draws crowds...Especially, During the holidays , that their Slow times of the year aren't really slow anymore, Speaking from someone and many others( if you can believe it) who have gone to Disney every Aug/September for the past 15 yrs ....Its not slow anymore......So what that they don't come out with a new ride/attraction every freakin couple of months..I'll still go..And I believe many others.....Yes I could go on and on but I won't bore you.......But do us all a favor.....STAY HOME!!!

Great, another person who hasn't read the thread.

WildcatDen · Nov 4, 2008

WDW1974 said:
(That's like the 20% of folks who still support the lame duck who shall not be named.).

I am afraid Pelosi is not a lame duck, yet. Of course, that support is closer to 23%. The other, to whom you refer is closer to 30%. Awful good numbers if you are a baseball player. . .

As far as comparisons go, your arguement makes sense. I mean, who here in Cincinnati does not recall the glory days of King's Island. The park used to have a family feel where cleanliness was a priority. I mean who can't look back at that Brady Bunch episode and not miss that atmosphere.

Maybe, just maybe the condition you are speaking of, as wel as the condition of King's Island, is a product of our current society. We are conditioned to expect less while paying more. Even last night, I was dismayed to find out that my 'half-gallon' of ice cream from the local Kroger has changed to 1 1/2 quarts, yet the price has actually gone up. So, I am paying more for less.

The new norm.

MickeyJman06 · Nov 4, 2008

dixiegirl said:
And I'm waiting for Mom to come in soon and close this thread..:lookaroun

Agree, The Poster Of This Topic Just Dosen't Realize How Long It Takes To Plan A Major Disney Attraction, Remember EE Took Three Years To Build And A Few Years To Plan It And It Takes An Average Of 10 Years To Plan/Build A Disney Park

sueuk · Nov 4, 2008

It's already been said, but Disney is global ... not just Floridian! the growth in Disneyland Paris in the last couple of years has been amazing and it's still going on. WDW gets us all back time and time again because even if growth/ change has slowed down a little - it's still THE 'happy place' and will continue to be so. Even if there is nothing new when we go (and there's usually something - or a refurb ) they can't improve on the feeling of being there!!

whylightbulb · Nov 4, 2008

MickeyJman06 said:
Agree, The Poster Of This Topic Just Dosen't Realize How Long It Takes To Plan A Major Disney Attraction, Remember EE Took Three Years To Build And A Few Years To Plan It And It Takes An Average Of 10 Years To Plan/Build A Disney Park

I don't think the OP is saying there isn't a lot of work that goes into a new attraction or park. What he or she is saying, along with myself, is that we have seen a sharp decline in terms of quality of show, upkeep and maintenance and general value overall in the last 12 years or so.

Don't let the amount of time it takes to design/build a project fool you. Much of the time and money is wasted in ways you wouldn't believe. Here's one quick example off the top of my head. In Toy Story Mania the scenic vendor was supposed to receive a custom UV paint formula for each color call out. They waited and waited for these mixtures until the schedule would not allow it any longer. They finally received simple swatches that any of the worst art directors could put together in an hour. First of all, the need for custom mixtures in this case was unwarranted and was demanded to satisfy some egos. Secondly all the supposed time that should have gone to the R & D for this was charged to the project anyway even though it took all of a couple of hours. This is one small example that, when added to the many other small examples, add up to a huge bureaucracy and budget. The money and time wasted could have actually gone to some real scenic elements and efx instead of lost in a trash pile of waste.

Part of the problem lies with upper management and part of the problem can be pinned on many in the lower ranks at WDI.

Pumbas Nakasak · Nov 4, 2008

MickeyJman06 said:
Agree, The Poster Of This Topic Just Dosen't Realize How Long It Takes To Plan A Major Disney Attraction, Remember EE Took Three Years To Build And A Few Years To Plan It And It Takes An Average Of 10 Years To Plan/Build A Disney Park

he may know nothing of planning, but he understands the correct use of capitalisation.

WDW1974 · Nov 4, 2008

dixiegirl said:
Then do us all a favor......Stay home!!!..I'm sorry but to compare Walt Disney World to any other Park out there is Bizarre, There is no comparison what so ever...Well for a place that seems "stale " to you why is it that yes even with the economy it still draws crowds...Especially, During the holidays , that their Slow times of the year aren't really slow anymore, Speaking from someone and many others( if you can believe it) who have gone to Disney every Aug/September for the past 15 yrs ....Its not slow anymore......So what that they don't come out with a new ride/attraction every freakin couple of months..I'll still go..And I believe many others.....Yes I could go on and on but I won't bore you.......But do us all a favor.....STAY HOME!!!

What an ignorant post. Really. No, I'm not calling you ignorant, that I'll leave up to the folks who read it. But to tell someone who loves WDW to stay home because he has issues with the way it is run because you have no counterpoints to argue really is just ignorant.

And why is it bizarre to compare WDW's parks to any others (Disney or non)? Is WDW so magical, so special, so placed on a pedestal by the geek community that people can't think for themselves?

So WDW draws crowds. Big deal. It always has. And hopefully always will.

I don't really get your point. DL draws crowds, as does DLP and TDL ... and they all do so with a helluva lot more quality and substance to offer than the tired old MK does.

Many non-Disney parks like the wonderful Universal and Busch offerings in Florida draw millions as well annually.

So what is your point? Do you have one? Or do you just want me to stay home?

And I've got news for you. August and September are slow ... September is the slowest month of the year and has been since WDW opened in 1971. Any uptick in crowds the past few years has to do with the huge amount of disocounting Disney has done, especially their FREE dining promotion that's been running since the hurricanes of 2004.

And again, if you believe my point is that Disney should be opening a new attraction every few months than I would suggest you go back and actually read what I have written and not what you think I am saying.

WDW1974 · Nov 4, 2008

krankenstein said:
It was moved because it has nothing to do with News and Rumors. The thread should have originally been placed in General Discussion. Hence the move. :wave:

I do have a quick question, I heard that what we are currently seeing is the very end of the Eisner era. TSMM actually marked the beginning of Iger's decisions. Is this is true? If so, I think the future might look a bit brighter than it did in the late 90's.

I would disagree as it does speak to all the news and rumors that some on this site are passing off as gospel regarding future WDW projects ... as to your second point, I think it's time to lay off the Eisner bashing. Iger has been in charge (at least behind the scenes) for over four years ... Eisner just remained largely as a figurehead so he could open HKDL and the vast Chinese market before he rode off into the sunset.

Iger has made some very smart moves at The Studios, at ABC/ESPN, even in consumer products ... as for the parks, the jury is most assuredly still out.

Eisner, despite what some fans chose to believe, was passionate about the parks and actually appreciated and enjoyed them as more than an end to a balance sheet and returns to investors. Doesn't mean he didn't make some awful choices parks-wise his last few years, though.

Iger hasn't shown any such passion for the parks, which is why Jay Rasulo is still firmly ensconced in his position.

But do things look brighter than in the late 90s? Well, if you take Orlando out of the parks equation, they certainly do.

WDW1974 · Nov 4, 2008

sleepybear said:
In the past five years, WDW has seen the openings of Mission: Space, Mickey's Philharmagic, Soarin', Expedition Everest and Toy Story Mania. Yup, five of the resort's most popular attractions weren't around five years ago. Not to mention the major refurbs of Pirates, Haunted Mansion, The Seas and Spaceship Earth.

If opening and updating an 'E' Ticket attraction every year is 'stale' in your book, then I'm curious to see your definition of 'fresh.'

First, let's set the record straight. Mission Space is no where near being one of the resort's most popular attractions. Many days, if Disney didn't have FP on it, it would have minimal if ANY wait at all. TSMM appears very popular, but it has been open only months.

PhilharMagic and Soarin are both film-based attractions and lose popularity over the years, although I enjoy them a lot. But look at Honey It's 1991 or Hey, Do You Remember Who The Muppets Were in 3D, if you think these attractions hold on to their numbers.

The only one of those attractions you list as an E-Ticket, Everest, really qualifies in my book. I do think arguments can be made for Mission Space, but I won't put it up there.

And your point only really backs up mine. You listed five attractions over four parks. If all five had opened in one park, or maybe even two, you might have an argument. Two of them actually took the place of others so there wasn't a net gain in attraction count.

Some of the attractions you list have been open as long as five years. FIVE YEARS. Some replaced others that had been mothballed (Seas with Nemo).

Only one: TSMM, is truly new as in opened in 2008.

And I'm sorry, but rehabs don't count to me as anything but. Attractions like SSE and Mansion and Pirates regularly got 'plussed' back in the old days. Disney just didn't market the 'changes' as more than they were.

I think it's great that Mansion looks so great with a few new show scenes and, finally, decent sound system. But I expect that from Disney. I don't intend to give them kudos for that when the Mansion was literally falling apart for well over a decade before they shut it down.

Again, it's not that I am saying that Disney isn't doing anything in Florida. But it is doing the very bare minimum and that is why you have such a stale product overall.

WDW1974 · Nov 4, 2008

jakeman said:
Interesting thread.

While I agree that there are always areas for improvements, I disagree that things are as dire as the OP makes them out to be. Additionally, some points are lost in the name calling of both other board members and even the WDW executives. The lack of respect for people in general has always astonished me.

My parents have been visit WDW regularly, since it opened in 1971. There was a time in the early 80's that they did not return for a few years because of the lack of cleaniness to the parks. So to say that the parks are not as clean now as they were may be a matter of opinion.

My question would be: Has the OP communicated his views to Guest Services and taken his/her money elsewhere? Complaining and lamenting on a message board is fine and well within anyones right, but if you are still buying a product that you feel is inferior, what is the incentive for the company to make the product better?

That's really what it comes down to. The OP is just as much part of the problem as the "lowest common denominator" guest if he/she is still spending money at WDW.

First, I don't appreciate the shot. I give the same amount of respect I am given.

Second, I love WDW. I am not going to desert it anymore than I would a loved one with problems, illness or addiction. I still get a lot of enjoyment from the place or I wouldn't go.

But it would also serve no purpose whatsoever if I took my business away from WDW because I have issues with the way it is being (mis)run. Hell, I am sure that would actually make a lot of execs happy because I am the kind of guest they have to work to keep happy. Free lanyards or churros or meet and greets with the characters don't make me happy. Clean, safe, well-maintained parks staffed with happy workers offering the best and freshest in themed entertainment do.

Disney would much rather have more of the typical 'everything is magical, WDW rocks!' fans than they would folks like me who remember when Disney earned its reputation every single day.

Rest assured, I make sure execs and Imagineers and others in the company hear my viewpoints when I feel they can do some good. And also rest assured that the people who matter take my responses a lot more seriously than a CM at City Hall would.

WDW1974 · Nov 4, 2008

whylightbulb said:
Dinosaur has a nice ride system with a bare bones show. In my opinion they might as well have placed the track in a warehouse, outfit the track area with not much more than duvatene, turned off the lights, installed a few animatronic dinosaurs and called it a day. Oh wait, that is just about what they did.

If you had seen the original plans for this ride you would probably agree with me. There was a nifty brush fire effect as well as an actual realistic meteor hit for example. Do most guests riding through even realize that there is a meteor hit with the current design? I suppose the constant plot exposition allows riders to know about the meteor, if anyone is really listening. Instead of using visual elements to tell the story we have an actor reading us the plot as we ride through, i.e., "we've got to get in, get that dino and get out before that meteor hits," in case you didn't get that part in the lame pre-show. Don't even get me started on the, "we're not going to make it we're not going to make it...we made it." This is one of the most poorly written shows in the parks and unfortunately there have been plenty to choose from lately.

One could argue that the ride is fun without the story and first class scenic and effects. I would agree to a point. I worked on the Indiana Jones ride system in Glendale so I can't say I fault that part of the show. What I do fault is the amazing scope reduction with respect to scenic, effects and even animatronics. There is a reason why half of the creatures never work.

As far as Toy Story Mania, if it truly had a $70 Million budget I would agree that it would be plenty to pull off an E ticket to be proud of. What happens however is that these published numbers are almost always inflated substantially.

Mission Space is a great example. The complete ride system price had been common knowledge since it was purchased from a well known company that advertised this product. The only things left were, in general terms, Horizons demolition, R & D, Scenic, media, cabin, pre show and post show design and fabrication, ride system customization (pretty minimal), show control, installation and shipping, design, and the big number that usually ends up eating into effects and the elements that make for a Disney quality show, project management and administration. Even the most liberal estimates would put the total attraction cost at somewhere in the $60 to $70 million range. Trust me, that estimate is extremely liberal taking into account the need for Disney's bureaucracy and extras. If memory serves they were saying MS cost well over $100 Million.

Back to Toy Story Mania. Lousy show with a fun game. Extremely minimal scenic and story in the ride itself. is it fun? I would say it is. Is it anywhere in the same leauge as it could be considering Disney's resources and talent pool? The answer unfortunately is a resounding no!

As I stated in an earlier post, why not place passengers on a tour bus with Barbie as she drives us all over Als Toy Barn. Great opportunity for comedy, games that make sense in the context of the story and environment and action/adventure if desired. You could have some interesting and humorous dialog and offer more than simply moving from one screen to the next to play video games. The 4D aspect makes it a bit more fun but Disney used to be known for the extra touches of theming and detail. UV painted flats with nothing but cookie cutter screen assemblies just doesn't cut it in my opinion. The current storyline is senseless and sloppy.

Great insight. Thanks.

I can add only one numb addition and that's Mission Space was told to me, by folks at both WDI and HP, to have cost a lot closer to $200 million than $100 million when all of the above factors were taken in.

I admit that I have no clue where that money could have gone, except for lavish lunches and travel for the development team, but knowing WDI's penchant for pi$$ing away money, I don't doubt it for a second.

WDW1974 · Nov 4, 2008

WildcatDen said:
I am afraid Pelosi is not a lame duck, yet. Of course, that support is closer to 23%. The other, to whom you refer is closer to 30%. Awful good numbers if you are a baseball player. . .

Well, when it comes to real life leadership that other lame duck has struck out in every at-bat that mattered and dragged our country (and much of the world) on down with him. What an eight-year nightmare ...

WildcatDen;3213059 As far as comparisons go said:
I don't like the new norm ... no matter what aspect of it we are discussing ... because it ultimately means we should expect less in life (be it from our leaders, Disney or the local grocer).

America is way too good to be simply WalMarted and told that's what we need to do to 'compete' ... btw, that is the BS reason WDW has been dumbed down so much, had quality standards dropped while prices were constantly raised etc ... Disney needed to be lean and mean.

It's an empty, vile excuse for taking an experience that was once a premium one and making it much less so.

WDW1974 · Nov 4, 2008

MickeyJman06 said:
Agree, The Poster Of This Topic Just Dosen't Realize How Long It Takes To Plan A Major Disney Attraction, Remember EE Took Three Years To Build And A Few Years To Plan It And It Takes An Average Of 10 Years To Plan/Build A Disney Park

Have you sat with Joe Rohde for hours (one on one and not at a geek convention) and discussed what it took to bring Everest to reality?

Just to use one example ...

Because I have. And I spent countless time with those who bring the magic to life (whatever that means).

I have a very good idea on what it takes to build parks, resorts and attractions and I'll put my knowledge up against anyone who wades into the wdwmagic waters.

With that I've just wasted my lunch ... so I look forward to coming back tomorrow and reading everyone's intelligent discourse!

jakeman · Nov 4, 2008

WDW1974 said:
First, I don't appreciate the shot. I give the same amount of respect I am given.

That doesn't justify name calling of people you don't know just because you don't like their decisions. Disagreement is one thing, name calling is childish and accomplishes very little.

WDW1974 said:
Second, I love WDW. I am not going to desert it anymore than I would a loved one with problems, illness or addiction. I still get a lot of enjoyment from the place or I wouldn't go.

Then you don't understand the business. If there is a decrease in profits accompanied by complaints then there is incentive to take action.

WDW1974 said:
But it would also serve no purpose whatsoever if I took my business away from WDW because I have issues with the way it is being (mis)run. Hell, I am sure that would actually make a lot of execs happy because I am the kind of guest they have to work to keep happy. Free lanyards or churros or meet and greets with the characters don't make me happy. Clean, safe, well-maintained parks staffed with happy workers offering the best and freshest in themed entertainment do.

Disney would much rather have more of the typical 'everything is magical, WDW rocks!' fans than they would folks like me who remember when Disney earned its reputation every single day.

Yes, they probably would. You generate income but you also complain about "the good old days". You are one of the most difficult types of consumers to please. I'll also note here that you ignored my comment about the dirtiness of the parks in the early 80's.

WDW1974 said:
Rest assured, I make sure execs and Imagineers and others in the company hear my viewpoints when I feel they can do some good. And also rest assured that the people who matter take my responses a lot more seriously than a CM at City Hall would.

You seem to be alluding that you have more pull than you are letting on. If you are a regular guest (DVC, annual passholder, etc.) then your letters mean no more than mine. If I misunderstood your response, please forgive me.

Nostalgia is a tricky thing. I'm by no means saying that it is wrong 100% of the time. I'll be the first to agree with you that park merchandise has declined in variety over the past 10 years.

However, it does have the tendency to cover up the bad parts of the past.

krankenstein · Nov 4, 2008

WDW1974 said:
I would disagree as it does speak to all the news and rumors that some on this site are passing off as gospel regarding future WDW projects ... as to your second point, I think it's time to lay off the Eisner bashing. Iger has been in charge (at least behind the scenes) for over four years ... Eisner just remained largely as a figurehead so he could open HKDL and the vast Chinese market before he rode off into the sunset.

Iger has made some very smart moves at The Studios, at ABC/ESPN, even in consumer products ... as for the parks, the jury is most assuredly still out.

Eisner, despite what some fans chose to believe, was passionate about the parks and actually appreciated and enjoyed them as more than an end to a balance sheet and returns to investors. Doesn't mean he didn't make some awful choices parks-wise his last few years, though.

Iger hasn't shown any such passion for the parks, which is why Jay Rasulo is still firmly ensconced in his position.

But do things look brighter than in the late 90s? Well, if you take Orlando out of the parks equation, they certainly do.

I never have or will bash Mr. Eisner. I think he is one of the best things to ever happen to the company. He accomplished a lot and he should never be forgotten for the positive addition and great things he did. That said, towards the end of his tenure he seemed to lose focus to me. Many of his later decisions are questionable.

Btw, I take what everyone around here says with salt. Whether it be Lee, Martin or even what you post on other sites. That said, I do have some people I tend to trust more than others that I know have connections in WDW. When they tell me something is in the works, I tend to believe them dipite what anyone else says.

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