CDavid
Well-Known Member
Agreed. There were too many aspects to Project Gemini which appeared as if they would have made Epcot into a park more like the original California Adventure (Rainforest Coaster, etc.).
-
Welcome to the WDWMAGIC.COM Forums!
Please take a look around, and feel free to sign up and join the community.
2015: The year of the EPCOT makeover?
- Thread starter PeterAlt
- Start date
Agreed. There were too many aspects to Project Gemini which appeared as if they would have made Epcot into a park more like the original California Adventure (Rainforest Coaster, etc.).
MerlinTheGoat
Well-Known Member
Ratatouille would require a new show building, so yeah almost certainly not happening. In a twisted way I guess we're almost lucky there's not a ride already there to exploit and make a mockery of the pavilion with (hopefully the movie remains, i'm now seeing these old attractions as sacred remnants). The reason they're building a Frozen ride is because they already have a ride there to lazily repurpose and save a buttload of cash. Don't expect any sort of expansion, we've even been told to expect the same track to be reused by insiders (which sadly won't even fix the shortness of the ride, the primary gripe with Maelstrom in the first place).
You're creating absurd and nonsensical strawman arguments left and right to try to justify your arguments. The simple fact is that Frozen only has vaguely Scandinavian influences. And what little was there wasn't even authentically re-created (like the trolls for one of many examples). The focus is almost exclusively on the characters and music. Nothing you've said has changed the fact that heavy external marketing had to be done to achieve a bump in tourism. To inform people the movie had any inspiration from Norway at all. The movie alone would not have achieved that sort of cultural recognition alone because of how very vague the cultural references were, they had to be explained and taught to fans and weren't self evident (again unlike Hercules for Greece, Hunchback of Notre Dame or Ratatouille for France etc). This all ties back into the fact that Frozen is a poor fit for Norway, even moreso than the Three Caballeros at Mexico (and that is saying a LOT coming from me because I am highly displeased about Mexico, but at least a considerable amount of the original ride is still there and would be possible to fix fairly easily)...
Kids (particularly little girls) who would show interest in this ride really aren't going to give a crap about Norwegian culture whatsoever. They'll just want to see Elsa and Olaf and hear Let it Go and will duly ignore Norwegian ties, and that's what the ride is going to be about as per the PR comment from Tom Staggs.
This is why EPCOT was so great during its heyday prior to 1994 before Eisner and his gang began to ruin the place. It didn't cater towards the crowd who insists on nothing but Fantasyland rides (heck it didn't even cater towards thrill crazy people). It targeted and entertained a more mature audience (not necessarily older, but more intelligent and sophisticated). It knew what its market was and didn't attempt to be an inferior spillover Magic Kingdom, until some very short sighted people decided to compromise that vision (making the park regressive, the new elements that were built were actually more outdated than what they replaced)...
I think putting a rainforest coaster in front of the Land would be an ugly mess given what i've seen of the plans, a distraction that just ruins the view of the building. I expect it wouldn't have been themed very well either given some of Eisner's other projects from that era (sadly Tokyo Disney Sea was kind of an exception to the norm of the time). The basic plans i've seen look like it wouldn't have been much more than a very generic coaster with some trees surrounding it, nothing special.
Besides the addition of Soarin, the rest of that plan outright ignores the real problems with EPCOT (Test Track, Mission Space, Ellen's Energy Adventure and Imagination) and breaks what doesn't need fixing (Time Racers and the Little Mermaid Seas overlay). And the new stuff gives off the impression that the imagineers really didn't any clue what they were doing. Several of the areas have super generic and non-specific labels including "Replacement for Wonders of Life" and "Cool Stuff". I think this revision to Future World really would have destroyed what little attraction there still was of EPCOT. Especially had Spaceship Earth been gutted for a roller coaster. Literally the only thing i would even consider visiting anymore would be the Land. Say whatever you like about Eisner's positive contributions to the company (there were plenty) but he really ruined EPCOT for me. Or at least he allowed people under his supervision to do so. This plan is even worse, most likely would have ensured my complete boycott of the park.
I'm going to remove the petty insults from the quote for the sake of this topic's continued existence (so your attempts at trolling are duly ignored).
You're creating absurd and nonsensical strawman arguments left and right to try to justify your arguments. The simple fact is that Frozen only has vaguely Scandinavian influences. And what little was there wasn't even authentically re-created (like the trolls for one of many examples). The focus is almost exclusively on the characters and music. Nothing you've said has changed the fact that heavy external marketing had to be done to achieve a bump in tourism. To inform people the movie had any inspiration from Norway at all. The movie alone would not have achieved that sort of cultural recognition alone because of how very vague the cultural references were, they had to be explained and taught to fans and weren't self evident (again unlike Hercules for Greece, Hunchback of Notre Dame or Ratatouille for France etc). This all ties back into the fact that Frozen is a poor fit for Norway, even moreso than the Three Caballeros at Mexico (and that is saying a LOT coming from me because I am highly displeased about Mexico, but at least a considerable amount of the original ride is still there and would be possible to fix fairly easily)...
Kids (particularly little girls) who would show interest in this ride really aren't going to give a crap about Norwegian culture whatsoever. They'll just want to see Elsa and Olaf and hear Let it Go and will duly ignore Norwegian ties, and that's what the ride is going to be about as per the PR comment from Tom Staggs.
This is why EPCOT was so great during its heyday prior to 1994 before Eisner and his gang began to ruin the place. It didn't cater towards the crowd who insists on nothing but Fantasyland rides (heck it didn't even cater towards thrill crazy people). It targeted and entertained a more mature audience (not necessarily older, but more intelligent and sophisticated). It knew what its market was and didn't attempt to be an inferior spillover Magic Kingdom, until some very short sighted people decided to compromise that vision (making the park regressive, the new elements that were built were actually more outdated than what they replaced)...
Yup. I'm actually not 100% against a coaster at EPCOT if handled properly. This was absolutely not the way to go about it though and we already had some good plans in the past for how to do this kind of attraction right. There have been several plans for coaster rides at World showcase including Mount Fuji or even a new version of the Matterhorn for a potential Switzerland pavilion. I've also heard ideas for log flumes or raft rides rumored for Canada in the past. Themed appropriately to mountains with some elaborate rock work and scenery in the classic Disney way, this could potentially be acceptable to me and the proper way to add some "thrills" to EPCOT. Though at the moment, EPCOT needs rides more like the original slower paced E tickets at Future World. Too many slower paced rides were lost in that old purge. Imagination is an excellent place to start, as they should have done early this year...
I think putting a rainforest coaster in front of the Land would be an ugly mess given what i've seen of the plans, a distraction that just ruins the view of the building. I expect it wouldn't have been themed very well either given some of Eisner's other projects from that era (sadly Tokyo Disney Sea was kind of an exception to the norm of the time). The basic plans i've seen look like it wouldn't have been much more than a very generic coaster with some trees surrounding it, nothing special.
Besides the addition of Soarin, the rest of that plan outright ignores the real problems with EPCOT (Test Track, Mission Space, Ellen's Energy Adventure and Imagination) and breaks what doesn't need fixing (Time Racers and the Little Mermaid Seas overlay). And the new stuff gives off the impression that the imagineers really didn't any clue what they were doing. Several of the areas have super generic and non-specific labels including "Replacement for Wonders of Life" and "Cool Stuff". I think this revision to Future World really would have destroyed what little attraction there still was of EPCOT. Especially had Spaceship Earth been gutted for a roller coaster. Literally the only thing i would even consider visiting anymore would be the Land. Say whatever you like about Eisner's positive contributions to the company (there were plenty) but he really ruined EPCOT for me. Or at least he allowed people under his supervision to do so. This plan is even worse, most likely would have ensured my complete boycott of the park.
Last edited:
Okay, so by your logic, because you glanced at a couple of worn out trolls in a fleeting moment, on a ride that encompasses all of four minutes -- your entire childhood was transformed, thus enabling you to know all there is to know about Norway, which goes on to prove that you truly care about the people and culture of Norway. That is, until you are inspired and your childhood is transformed by the next pavilion and the other countless rides and parks you encounter during your vacation. That's quite an abundance of external stimuli for an adult, let alone a child to process -- you must of have an exceptional attention span. I'm glad so that every child in the world is just like *you*.
Perhaps you should write a book, since you were born with such keen insight on the multisensory integration of children and the paradoxical intricacies of the subconcious mind. The majority of people can barely figure out how their own mind works, but you somehow know, right?
In summation, Maelstrom is the *only* method that a child or anyone can be enriched about the culture of Norway because every child who has ridden Maelstrom is transformed and really cares about the Norway, it's people and the culture because trolls are part of Norwegian folklore. Got it.
I. Want. Out. Now.
You. Win.
Well, that's too bad, it's another missed opportunity. I'm still looking forward to Frozestrom, though.
People raved about Ratatouille in Chefs de France, so the ride would have been perfect there. I don't see how people take exception to rides in World Showcase but don't seem to mind the characters. I would not like to see this at DHS. I guess this is all for naught anyway, lol.
MerlinTheGoat
Well-Known Member
What on EARTH are you rambling about? Really, because I have no clue what your problem is. Visiting the Norway pavilion as a child introduced me to the culture, as someone unfamiliar with Norwegian culture prior I liked what I saw (not just the troll parts) and so chose to learn more (and shock, things unrelated to trolls).
It's not a difficult concept to grasp and certainly a ridiculous thing for you to be so upset about and I daresay offended by... What problem do you have with this and why are you so seemingly shocked and appalled by it? Visiting a lot of the other World Showcase pavilions were my first taste of other cultures outside of the US as well (before actually learning much about them or even having the good fortune of visiting some of them in person).
It's sad to see the countries being tainted with Disney's IP's let loose on the place to engulf everything, this was not what the creators of the park wanted and in fact something they were adamant and careful about avoiding getting out of control (which is why at the beginning even meet and greets with Disney characters was so rare or even unheard of). The rest of your comment above I have no idea how to respond to, it's practically incoherent babbling.
It doesn't take a genius to know that MOST kids aren't going to be interested in Frozen's ties to Norway, this isn't rocket science or even complex child psychology here. A few parents here and there perhaps might take notice of the loose connections to the culture, but when you've got a little girl (or even a boy, i'm not judging here) throwing a fit to get an Elsa or Olaf doll after riding and exiting through the inevitable Frozen IP gift shop, I doubt even those few parents are going to bother.
No one said ANY of that. Or anything even remotely close to it. Ever. Period. Thank you for another unsuccessful attempt at a straw man though.
What was stated was that Maelstrom was MY first taste at Norway and its culture as a child. It is not remotely the only way to introduce yourself to the culture, but it was MY first glimpse and my inspiration for delving further. The pavilion was distinctly Norway, so I took away an intrigue at learning more about Norwegian culture. Quite simple really. Frozen (good though the movie is) is a very poor and inaccurate representation Norwegian (or Scandinavian in general) culture. I'd consider it a very unfortunate way for people unfamiliar with the culture to be introduced to it. Fantasyland is where it belongs and should have gone from the beginning. Had we only the good fortune of caring, competent and overall rational people running the parks. As well as executives who had any faith in their movie to begin with to foresee its popularity and build a good and appropriately placed ride around it.
As stated before, trolls are only part of the ride. The first several show scenes are historical scenes of Nowegian culture. Folklore and myths just happen to have very deep roots in their culture. That's rather true of any culture really. Same as the Greeks, Romans, Egyptians etc with their famous gods and mythical stories. And i'd hardly be likely to (or want to) ignore their fascinating stories when presented in a respectable and appropriate manner. Myths and gods are often (pretty much always) at the root of cultures and civilizations, religion in particular (and folklore) is usually the foundations civilizations (both great and small) are built around.
Frozen once again does not represent Norwegian culture or folklore adequately, it's a Danish fairy tale tweaked by Disney to take place in a fictional kingdom of unknown location on earth. Still with only extremely vague and sparsely scattered Scandinavian influences, all shoved to the side to focus on a queen with magical ice powers and a snowman that sings about summer. Not an entirely unwelcome concept for a Disney movie, or a Fantasyland ride. But quite a poor and even inappropriate way to showcase and pay tribute to authentic Norwegian culture.
Last edited:
aladdin2007
Well-Known Member
What on EARTH are you rambling about? Really, because I have no clue what your problem is. Visiting the Norway pavilion as a child introduced me to the culture, as someone unfamiliar with Norwegian culture prior I liked what I saw (not just the troll parts) and so chose to learn more (and shock, things unrelated to trolls).
It's not a difficult concept to grasp and certainly a ridiculous thing for you to be so upset about and I daresay offended by... What problem do you have with this and why are you so seemingly shocked and appalled by it? Visiting a lot of the other World Showcase pavilions were my first taste of other cultures outside of the US as well (before actually learning much about them or even having the good fortune of visiting some of them in person).
It's sad to see the countries being tainted with Disney's IP's let loose on the place to engulf everything, this was not what the creators of the park wanted and in fact something they were adamant and careful about avoiding getting out of control (which is why at the beginning even meet and greets with Disney characters was so rare or even unheard of). The rest of your comment above I have no idea how to respond to, it's practically incoherent babbling.
It doesn't take a genius to know that MOST kids aren't going to be interested in Frozen's ties to Norway, this isn't rocket science or even complex child psychology here. A few parents here and there perhaps might take notice of the loose connections to the culture, but when you've got a little girl (or even a boy, i'm not judging here) throwing a fit to get an Elsa or Olaf doll after riding and exiting through the inevitable Frozen IP gift shop, I doubt even those few parents are going to bother.
No one said ANY of that. Or anything even remotely close to it. Ever. Period. Thank you for another unsuccessful attempt at a straw man though.
What was stated was that Maelstrom was MY first taste at Norway and its culture as a child. It is not remotely the only way to introduce yourself to the culture, but it was MY first glimpse and my inspiration for delving further. The pavilion was distinctly Norway, so I took away an intrigue at learning more about Norwegian culture. Quite simple really. Frozen (good though the movie is) is a very poor and inaccurate representation Norwegian (or Scandinavian in general) culture. I'd consider it a very unfortunate way for people unfamiliar with the culture to be introduced to it. Fantasyland is where it belongs and should have gone from the beginning. Had we only the good fortune of caring, competent and overall rational people running the parks. As well as executives who had any faith in their movie to begin with to foresee its popularity and build a good and appropriately placed ride around it.
As stated before, trolls are only part of the ride. The first several show scenes are historical scenes of Nowegian culture. Folklore and myths just happen to have very deep roots in their culture. That's rather true of any culture really. Same as the Greeks, Romans, Egyptians etc with their famous gods and mythical stories. And i'd hardly be likely to (or want to) ignore their fascinating stories when presented in a respectable and appropriate manner. Myths and gods are often (pretty much always) at the root of cultures and civilizations, religion in particular (and folklore) is usually the foundations civilizations (both great and small) are built around.
Frozen once again does not represent Norwegian culture or folklore adequately, it's a Danish fairy tale tweaked by Disney to take place in a fictional kingdom of unknown location on earth. Still with only extremely vague and sparsely scattered Scandinavian influences, all shoved to the side to focus on a queen with magical ice powers and a snowman that sings about summer. Not an entirely unwelcome concept for a Disney movie, or a Fantasyland ride. But quite a poor and even inappropriate way to showcase and pay tribute to authentic Norwegian culture.
This!!! perfectly stated that last paragraph..... I can tell you though Norway is happy about the amount of people this is going to bring to the pavilion, but not so happy about it not being 100% Norwegian, (hopefully some other things will still pan out) the government had their chance to renew...shouldnt give Disney the right to do what they are doing just the same, but they do have the right so they can do it lol.
Progress.City
Well-Known Member
Out of curiosity, how do you know "Ratatouille isn't coming"? Have you been informed by an insider of this, or is this just wishful thinking on your part?
Remember, just because something hasn't been announced, doesn't mean they aren't working on it, or plan on it. And, even if they weren't working on it or planning it, they could always change their mind. Same is true if they are planning it; they can change their mind and cancel the plans.
Also, how do you know Frozen won't use the vacant lot next door? Has Disney announced the details of the project yet, or do you have an inside scoop? Or do you "just know" (ie an assumption based opinion).
If you do have the inside scoop, please share what you know!
Progress.City
Well-Known Member
Just a fair warning to everyone -
I've heard through the grapevine that Disney deliberately allows "leaks" of false information out so that they could trace it to the source of the leak in order to prevent real information from getting leaked.
I've heard through the grapevine that Disney deliberately allows "leaks" of false information out so that they could trace it to the source of the leak in order to prevent real information from getting leaked.
Every major corporation does this.
Especially in entertainment. You get used to it.
FrankLapidus
Well-Known Member
It would certainly be a better fit in the Pixar-dedicated "land" that they have that has only ever had one Pixar-related attraction.
I really like the way you think -- it's like a lifesaver in this sea of despair. It gives me hope.
danlb_2000
Premium Member
Although it can't be ruled out, the construction timeline would seem to indicate that they won't expand Frozen into the adjoining land.
aladdin2007
Well-Known Member
As for ratatouille martin has said its not coming to epcot and never was, so yeah I would follow with what he says before anyone else.
in terms of Norway yes I have connections and have stated plenty with what I could since august over in the frozen/maelstrom thread mainly from contacts involved directly in Norway regarding meetings, support and the future of the pavilion etc. The budget for one thing makes things obvious as well. I never said Disney didnt consider expanding next door, the plan was mainly a meetngreet pavilion at one point, but they chose the cheaper route.
aladdin2007
Well-Known Member
Except they dont currently have a movie to base it on, everything has to be tied into an IP now.
Wow. I didn't know there were plans for a boat ride in Germany -- this is the first time, I have ever seen this mentioned. I think it's a great idea -- and the first thing that came to mind was Hansel & Gretel. Mmm.....candy everywhere just like Candy Crush or Candy Land. I know Disney can do it -- per wiki:
Google EPCOT Rhine River.
I've posted the plans on these boards in the past. Maybe you can find them.
You'll learn all sorts around here
JWG
Well-Known Member
Google EPCOT Rhine River.
I've posted the plans on these boards in the past. Maybe you can find them.
You'll learn all sorts around here
We all know this or other will never happen. There's a real lack of vacant space at Epcot and they simply cannot afford to give up the storage space that the Germany show building affords them.