From the OS: Gator drags child into Seven Seas Lagoon

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flynnibus

Premium Member
I should have know I could count on you to misinterpret what I'm saying, since you've demonstrated little understanding of the law in other threads. The bird stealing a french fry? No. There's no value to a French fry. The paperwork filing would cost more than the entire lunch. Plus Disney would replace the fries. No need to sue. If the bird caused a gash that needed stitches? I guarantee that Disney would be paying the costs of that. The deer? Maybe. Depends on the circumstances (specifically, where did was the car driving). But I'm sure most people have insurance to cover that sort of thing. I guarantee if someone was injured, though, Disney would find itself being deposed.

1) worth pursuing does not change who is liable, so your points about costs is irrelevant.
2) Disney paying for stitches would not be because of liability - they'd probably do it out of customer recovery or potentially just to keep things simple and make the entire topic go away. I'd challenge you to cite any premise for Disney being liable for injuries caused by a wild bird while on Disney property. Just because they might do it, again, does not change who is liable
3) Having insurance does not change anything, in fact if there were basis for Disney to be liable, the insurance company would have the right to pursue disney to recover their costs. So again, changing nothing when it comes to establishing liability

So I challenge you again, under what premise would Disney be liable for a deer hitting my car while on WDW private property?

THIS incident did not happen in the wild. It happened on the unsupervised man-made beach of a man-made lake at a man-made hotel. While Disney may not have caused the incident, they are liable.

It happened in an open, uncontrolled area of the property fully exposed to open water, wetlands, and nature preserves. This wasn't the lobby lawn.
Two, simply being the owner is not grounds alone for liability. If are standing outside the Polynesian, and a tree fell on you, Disney is not liable by default. You'd have to prove negligence that caused or contributed to the accident happening.. like knowing the tree was unsafe, mismanaged, etc.

Your premise of 'it happened at Disney, so Disney is liable' without anything else bounding it is complete BS. I can cite examples all day long disproving it.

I never said default liability (there's no such thing; I think you mean strict liability).

No, mr non-esquire... I said 'are by default...' - connect the correct words together.

Any property owner has the legal responsibility to keep its customers safe while on the property
But that is not an unbounded concept. They are not liable for ANYTHING that happens, there are exclusions and standards where the owner can prove they did proper diligence and are absolved of liability of an outcome or simply aren't responsible at all (ex: Forces of Nature). Simply having an accident is not enough...

If there is a known danger from wild animals, then it absolutely includes that (the prevalence of alligators on Disney property demonstrates the knowledge that such attacks could occur, and it is therefore their responsibility to protect their guests).

And Disney could demonstrate how they do manage those risks to reasonable standards and other actions they do take to establish a level of safety to address that topic, to the point where patrons share some level of responsibility for their involvement as well.

If Disney builds a pool to the agreed upon safety standards, and a kid ignores the lifeguard's warnings, signs/markings and dives into the shallow end of the pool and is paralyzed. Disney isn't going to be found liable - even tho it was their pool. Your premise of 'their property, their liability' as the only test is invalid. There is more to that discussion.
 

Dylan Ann

Active Member
Having alligators and wildlife that could be dangerous is not the issue. What is the issue, however, is Disney not educating their visitors on the risks and that the wildlife does, in fact, exist on their property and that it does pose a danger.

Not posting signage on the waterfront warning guests is incredibly negligent. You can understand management not wanting the signage because it takes away from that "magical Disney experience," but they are incredibly idiotic for trying to keep the dangers from guests.

I don't blame Disney for this, but I think you are correct and I would be shocked if the signs aren't updated soon. If there is a threat of gators, they must warn of a threat of gators. "No Swimming" does not in any way imply alligators. It's possible before this they didn't think there was any real risk from gators, but this incident proved they were wrong.

It all comes down to reasonable expectations. It is not reasonable for a hotel guest to assume that there is a risk of death by alligator in an open body of water on hotel property, where guests are allowed to be, that has no signs mentioning the danger of alligators. It is reasonable for a guest to assume there is danger if they hop off their safari truck at Animal Kingdom and go running up to a herd of animals.
 

englanddg

One Little Spark...
It does seem a little odd to have a majestic centerpiece of water highlighted and celebrated with literally a path of soft white sand onto it's questionable threshold....but just don't go near it. I've said it before, I'm pro-Disney. But I always felt a disconnect here with the 7 Seas Lagoon. I mean is it for transportation, is it for sport, is it for beach? Clearly not for beach and time to stop marketing it as such. Make it safe/off limits, cross it off guests "to-do's".
At one point SSL was cleared for swimming and water skiing, etc...in fact, it was something that Disney promoted when WDW opened. Here:



(skip to about 20 mins in where they talk about Water Recreation activities)

That ended a long time ago.
 

englanddg

One Little Spark...
I don't blame Disney for this, but I think you are correct and I would be shocked if the signs aren't updated soon. If there is a threat of gators, they must warn of a threat of gators. "No Swimming" does not in any way imply alligators. It's possible before this they didn't think there was any real risk from gators, but this incident proved they were wrong.

It all comes down to reasonable expectations. It is not reasonable for a hotel guest to assume that there is a risk of death by alligator in an open body of water on hotel property, where guests are allowed to be, that has no signs mentioning the danger of alligators. It is reasonable for a guest to assume there is danger if they hop off their safari truck at Animal Kingdom and go running up to a herd of animals.
Shades of Green, for example, does have signs that specify gators. Not sure about the beaches around SSL though...

Dermot_Gator_2-large_trans++LFvFcbCCSSPOPEZoCZQZEhp_Rh5meLd3xMJaHlzgqK0.jpg




This is what is at Grand Floridian, I think -
s065684037.jpg
 

JohnD

Well-Known Member
I'm just thankful that the boy's body was found and that it was "intact" according to the Orlando Sentinel. That implies, then, that he wasn't eaten at all, just drowned. Still.....a heartbreaking loss for the family. I have a niece the same age as that boy and just imagining the devastation if that happened to her, is unreal.

"The body was intact, Sheriff Jerry Demings told reporters. He estimated that it was 10-15 yards from the edge of the lagoon where the child had been wading Tuesday night." (Via Fox News app)

If there is any consolation at all, it's that the family has their son's body. However, no one in their wildest dreams could imagine returning home from a WDW vacation with their dead child.

Aside: What does "wading" mean? Raises more questions.
 

Jlasoon

Well-Known Member
Too many anti-Disney agendas are over-running this thread now. I'm out.

Yep and don't expect it to change - I live here - living with gators is part of life. With that being said, no amount of Disney signage would have prevented this. As an AP holder I'm on WDW property weekly, people swim in these damn lakes! I told a couple just a few weeks ago at the Polynesian that Florida waters are infested with gators. And that it would be in the interest of their children to get the hell out of the Seven Seas Lagoon water. Did they listen? Nope! Kids just kept swimming.
 

mousehockey37

Well-Known Member
Having alligators and wildlife that could be dangerous is not the issue. What is the issue, however, is Disney not educating their visitors on the risks and that the wildlife does, in fact, exist on their property and that it does pose a danger.

Not posting signage on the waterfront warning guests is incredibly negligent. You can understand management not wanting the signage because it takes away from that "magical Disney experience," but they are incredibly idiotic for trying to keep the dangers from guests.

It's not on Disney to educate anyone. They have signs posted, and now more than ever, in several languages. You would think that when going to an area to vacation, you would do some research and see what is there.

I know that when I go to the beach, there are things that live in the ocean that can kill me. I know that riptides exist and they can be deadly. I know when I go to Central Florida, that there are animals that don't inhabit the area I call home.

Disney did their part. They can't have a CM escort every single person around their grounds, it's impossible. There comes a point where it's the responsibility of those taking the vacation to know what dangers are where they're going. This incident happened at night. A lot of animals are nocturnal.

It's sad that this happened, but there's no reason that anyone should've been in the lagoon water. If the kid wanted to swim, the GF has a pool. Just because it's Disney World doesn't mean you're in a safe place. Yes, it's safer than most places, but you still need to be on your guard.
 

englanddg

One Little Spark...
I can't believe anyone would even WANT to wade/allow their children to wade in the water. You go in 6 inches and it's covered in water grass, it's disgusting and looks disgusting.

I wonder how far the child got...but I suspect not far out into the water. This is how gators get small dogs as well.

Also, the family is from Nebraska...so whilst this is something that southerners and FL residents are very much aware of (water snakes, gators, etc...in our lakes/rivers), not so much something they'd be used to.

I suspect we'll see fences go up around SSL on the beaches, and frankly I am fine with that. I hated trying to explain to my kid that she needed to stay out of the water at CBR, and I wouldn't even let her get wet sand for her sand castle (I went and got it myself).

Also, the timing...9:30p...isn't that when the water electrical parade is going on?

Very sad...my heart goes out to the family.
 

UpAllNight

Well-Known Member
This is an unfortunate accident but anyone who cancels a vacation due to this incident alone needs to sort themselves out.

What might hurt the thought process when deciding where to go is when this is combined with the 2 shooting incidents. And maybe the price rises will just tip more into thinking overall, its not somewhere they want to go this year.

You pay what you do to escape reality and the international headlines this week hit too close to some awful aspects of real life.
 

Thessair

Well-Known Member
I think I've come full circle on this. Maybe it's a lack of sleep.

Was there really a gator? So much noise coming out around this.... Gotta see what the Medical Examiner says.

They mentioned comparing bite marks to find the specific animal in the press conference, didn't they? The stream was breaking up on my end so I may have missed some things.
 

No Name

Well-Known Member
His body was found, according to the Orlando Sentinel, and thankfully not chewed up or eaten. Apparently the gator drowned him and didn't go any further. Still a horrible tragedy.

Well, I hope the family recovers as best as possible from this. I can't even imagine what this feels like. I also hope all similar tragedies are prevented in the future.
 

micdisney

Member
Is Seven Sea Lagoons and the water services being suspended full time or just for the investigation? I do not blame Disney at all for this nor the parents.
 

Pumbas Nakasak

Heading for the great escape.
Also, the timing...9:30p...isn't that when the water electrical parade is going on?
.

Yes and several times I have enjoyed tthe spectacle from both the poly and camp ground beaches,at night, without a torch and without giving too much a thought about gators cause in my mind they are not crocs, and I watched Steve Irwin (RIP).
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
A timely piece...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...do-enough-to-warn-its-guests-about-alligators

Some highlights..

[---]
Nick Wiley, executive director of the Florida Fish and Wildlife Commission, said the agency works closely with the theme park to remove any “nuisance alligators,” or gators that are at least four feet in length and could pose a threat to people, pets or property.

However, Wiley didn’t know how often his agency actually removes nuisance gators from the park, and he wasn’t able to provide an estimate for how many live in the waters on Disney property. A local sheriff said there had been no recent reports of any nuisance alligators in the area, but questions about their presence in the lake will be part of the ongoing investigation

[---]
“There isn’t a waterway in Florida that doesn’t have an alligator in it,” said Kenneth Krysko, herpetology collections manager at the Florida Museum of Natural History, and an expert on the state’s alligators and crocodiles.
[---]

The hour of the attack, about 9 p.m., is an optimal time for feeding. “Yes, that is the time of day that alligators are coming out and feeding. People are at the surface, splashing around. It’s just so sad because you have a 2-year-old, which is very small. A four-to-six-foot alligator can view that as prey. An animal would have no problem getting such a child.”

[---]

Krysko wondered whether the alligator in Tuesday’s attack, unlike most, had no fear of humans. He suspects that visiting tourists might have been feeding it. “That’s the big problem. It loses its natural fear of humans when that happens. It goes up to humans, sees a child, and that’s the first thing it takes. That’s the sole reason why it’s illegal to feed an alligator in the wild.”

Floridians are extremely wary of alligators, for the most part. The danger is so ingrained in the general public that many small bodies of water lack posted warnings. “Early morning or late evening, you don’t go messing around on a shoreline with vegetation because of alligators,” Krysko said.
[---]

Frank Mazzotti, a professor of wildlife ecology at University of Florida, said the fact that the Disney lagoon was man-made matters little. Alligators pop up constantly in man-made canals, golf course lakes and retention ponds that dot the state. “It’s really impossible to keep them out of any body of water,” Mazzotti said.
[---]

Alan Sykes, a professor at Stanford Law School, said the Walt Disney Co. could be held liable for the incident if there is proof of negligence.
[---]

He said a key question would be whether the resort had prior knowledge of alligators in the water near the hotel and what it had done to mitigate that issue, or at least adequately warn tourists of the potential dangers. “A simple ‘no swimming’ sign might be deemed insufficient,” he said. “If it gets litigated, it’s most likely a case about reasonable warning.”
 
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