Solar power farm coming to Disney

GeneralKnowledge

Well-Known Member
Five MegaWatts.

The average home in Florida uses 14.33 MegaWatts per year.

So yes, this is just a drop in the bucket. But its a start.

Hopefully as someone who has spent years in the solar industry, I can provide some clarification on this.

The average home in Florida uses 14.33 megawatt HOURS per year, quite different. That means in full sunlight Disney's system could produce enough power to fuel an average home for a year in about 3 hours.

This isn't necessarily only a publicity stunt. This system will cost Duke Energy roughly $10-15 million to construct (before tax credits, rebates, etc.) In the course of a year it should produce somewhere in the neighborhood of 7,000,000 kWh which is about $700,000 worth of electricity.

In projects like this, the power purchaser (Disney) buys the power at a rate below retail, so they don't save the full $700,000. They just get a better rate. For simplicity's sake, let's say they pay 50%, that means they will save $350,000 per year. Not nothing, but then again not too much more than a drop in the bucket when you look at Disney's electric bill.

To put this into perspective the system on top of UOE is 75 kW, or roughly 1.5% of the size of this system.

If anyone has any additional questions about this system, feel free to ask and I'll do my best to explain.
 

GoofGoof

Premium Member
Well, sortof. Mind you, I haven't read the article yet (will do so in a minute).

The part of the issue with electrical production isn't the actual production part, it's the storage of it.

This is why if a major substation goes out (or a series of them, as what happened to the northeast about a decade ago) whole areas can go black quickly. The grid produces and distributes electricity, efficiently (for the most part) and with redundancy (for the most part), but the grid is NOT capable of efficient power storage.

So, saying that a power station can "produce enough to power an average Florida home for a year by running 3 hours" is a bit inaccurate. More accurate would be it could power 1000 homes per hour, depending on peak usage, until it is removed from the grid due to lack of generating capacity or a general shutdown / separation.
Yep. This is true. The good thing about solar power in a place like Florida is the hours the panels are producing power are the peak hours for consumption when ACs are cranked up and it's hot outside.

1 MW powering 1,000 "average" homes is a standard industry term that's been around for years, probably decades. If you look around your home there's likely a lot more electronics than there were 10 or 20 years ago. The average home sucks a lot more power off the grid now than it once did even with more energy efficient appliances. The 1,000 is probably more like 750.
 

PhotoDave219

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
Hopefully as someone who has spent years in the solar industry, I can provide some clarification on this.

The average home in Florida uses 14.33 megawatt HOURS per year, quite different. That means in full sunlight Disney's system could produce enough power to fuel an average home for a year in about 3 hours.

This isn't necessarily only a publicity stunt. This system will cost Duke Energy roughly $10-15 million to construct (before tax credits, rebates, etc.) In the course of a year it should produce somewhere in the neighborhood of 7,000,000 kWh which is about $700,000 worth of electricity.

In projects like this, the power purchaser (Disney) buys the power at a rate below retail, so they don't save the full $700,000. They just get a better rate. For simplicity's sake, let's say they pay 50%, that means they will save $350,000 per year. Not nothing, but then again not too much more than a drop in the bucket when you look at Disney's electric bill.

To put this into perspective the system on top of UOE is 75 kW, or roughly 1.5% of the size of this system.

If anyone has any additional questions about this system, feel free to ask and I'll do my best to explain.

Sweet.

Glad someone put it in perspective. I looked on a bunch of websites and no one could put it in context. Thanks
 

englanddg

One Little Spark...
Yep. This is true. The good thing about solar power in a place like Florida is the hours the panels are producing power are the peak hours for consumption when ACs are cranked up and it's hot outside.

1 MW powering 1,000 "average" homes is a standard industry term that's been around for years, probably decades. If you look around your home there's likely a lot more electronics than there were 10 or 20 years ago. The average home sucks a lot more power off the grid now than it once did even with more energy efficient appliances. The 1,000 is probably more like 750.
Well, that's part of the general misconception. Unlike filling your car up with gas, electricity is extremely difficult to store. Much better with modern battery technologies, but the metals and chemicals required for those are extremely bad for the environment (ever seen a lithium mine in China? It makes coal strip mines look like Yellowstone National Park)...

I'm not making any statement one way or the other, but misleading terms like "can power 1 florida home for a year in 3 hours" are a tad misleading. If that energy isn't consumed WITHIN the hour, it's likely lost. Even quasi efficient storage involves chemicals that are extremely toxic, both in mining, production and final cost.

That's why you are encouraged to "recycle" your cell batteries...cause in a general landfill, millions of those leaky NiCad and LiIon batteries...well, that's BAD news.

For example, while I'd love mass adoption of electric cars, it would also mean our national grid needs to be severely examined and rethought. As well as our transportation system. Not to mention the ecological damage done overseas (as that's where we mine and purchase and largely produce all these metals, in countries who don't care about their environment nearly as much as we do).

It will happen, at some point, but there are significant advantages to NOT adopting it as well.

Green is NOT always as green as the masses and politicians believe.
 

PhotoDave219

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
Well, that's part of the general misconception. Unlike filling your car up with gas, electricity is extremely difficult to store. Much better with modern battery technologies, but the metals and chemicals required for those are extremely bad for the environment (ever seen a lithium mine in China? It makes coal strip mines look like Yellowstone National Park)...

I'm not making any statement one way or the other, but misleading terms like "can power 1 florida home for a year in 3 hours" are a tad misleading. If that energy isn't consumed WITHIN the hour, it's likely lost. Even quasi efficient storage involves chemicals that are extremely toxic, both in mining, production and final cost.

That's why you are encouraged to "recycle" your cell batteries...cause in a general landfill, millions of those leaky NiCad and LiIon batteries...well, that's BAD news.

For example, while I'd love mass adoption of electric cars, it would also mean our national grid needs to be severely examined and rethought. As well as our transportation system. Not to mention the ecological damage done overseas (as that's where we mine and purchase and largely produce all these metals, in countries who don't care about their environment nearly as much as we do).

It will happen, at some point, but there are significant advantages to NOT adopting it as well.

Green is NOT always as green as the masses and politicians believe.

No you can't store electricity and unfortunately I think that's something that isn't understood very well. Electricity needs to be used....

The good thing is that the electricity would be used nearly instantly at WDW.
 

GeneralKnowledge

Well-Known Member
Well, that's part of the general misconception. Unlike filling your car up with gas, electricity is extremely difficult to store. Much better with modern battery technologies, but the metals and chemicals required for those are extremely bad for the environment (ever seen a lithium mine in China? It makes coal strip mines look like Yellowstone National Park)...

I'm not making any statement one way or the other, but misleading terms like "can power 1 florida home for a year in 3 hours" are a tad misleading. If that energy isn't consumed WITHIN the hour, it's likely lost. Even quasi efficient storage involves chemicals that are extremely toxic, both in mining, production and final cost.

That's why you are encouraged to "recycle" your cell batteries...cause in a general landfill, millions of those leaky NiCad and LiIon batteries...well, that's BAD news.

For example, while I'd love mass adoption of electric cars, it would also mean our national grid needs to be severely examined and rethought. As well as our transportation system. Not to mention the ecological damage done overseas (as that's where we mine and purchase and largely produce all these metals, in countries who don't care about their environment nearly as much as we do).

It will happen, at some point, but there are significant advantages to NOT adopting it as well.

Green is NOT always as green as the masses and politicians believe.

The 1 home in 3 hours statement is meant to quantify the power we're talking about here in a manner that makes sense to people that are unfamiliar with the field, not to convey in any way how these systems operate and what happens to the power generated. The electric grid is a complex beast that is very difficult to comprehend.

As it is right now, essentially no electricity is stored in the U.S. power grid. There may be pilot energy storage projects here and there but they essentially amount to nil. That means when demand for power goes up, more coal or gas is thrown into the burner to provide more power. This happens on a real time basis. Solar power plants can't operate like this. You can't throw more sunshine on the theoretical burner to produce more power when you need it.

What solar power is good at is providing a baseline power source. You can predict within reason how much electricity your solar power sources will produce based on weather forecasts and irradiation sensors. You then need an adaptable power source like coal, gas, or (gasp) nuclear to adapt to the peaks and valleys of demand.

Right now, solar produces such a little percentage of the power consumed, so it doesn't have an appreciable effect on the system as a whole. Theoretically down the road if solar was producing say 75% of our power we would need to pay more attention to it because it's a bigger part of the picture.

If we were ever to go to 100% renewables, we would need a massive energy storage system to handle the peaks and valleys of demand as well as the times when the wind isn't blowing or the sun isn't shining. Energy storage technology is hopefully in its infancy right now and is prohibitively expensive.

Hopefully all of this is a moot point and we figure out fusion power before we spend all this money on solar and batteries. Fusion would be an adaptable, clean, essentially limitless supply of energy that would solve most of our energy needs.

Let me know if any of you read all of that.

/end rant
 

GeneralKnowledge

Well-Known Member
No you can't store electricity and unfortunately I think that's something that isn't understood very well. Electricity needs to be used....

The good thing is that the electricity would be used nearly instantly at WDW.

...and on the off chance that it doesn't get used, someone will suck it up over at Gaylord Palms or somewhere else nearby. Through net metering Disney would still profit from the production of that power.
 

PhotoDave219

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
The 1 home in 3 hours statement is meant to quantify the power we're talking about here in a manner that makes sense to people that are unfamiliar with the field, not to convey in any way how these systems operate and what happens to the power generated. The electric grid is a complex beast that is very difficult to comprehend.

As it is right now, essentially no electricity is stored in the U.S. power grid. There may be pilot energy storage projects here and there but they essentially amount to nil. That means when demand for power goes up, more coal or gas is thrown into the burner to provide more power. This happens on a real time basis. Solar power plants can't operate like this. You can't throw more sunshine on the theoretical burner to produce more power when you need it.

What solar power is good at is providing a baseline power source. You can predict within reason how much electricity your solar power sources will produce based on weather forecasts and irradiation sensors. You then need an adaptable power source like coal, gas, or (gasp) nuclear to adapt to the peaks and valleys of demand.

Right now, solar produces such a little percentage of the power consumed, so it doesn't have an appreciable effect on the system as a whole. Theoretically down the road if solar was producing say 75% of our power we would need to pay more attention to it because it's a bigger part of the picture.

If we were ever to go to 100% renewables, we would need a massive energy storage system to handle the peaks and valleys of demand as well as the times when the wind isn't blowing or the sun isn't shining. Energy storage technology is hopefully in its infancy right now and is prohibitively expensive.

Hopefully all of this is a moot point and we figure out fusion power before we spend all this money on solar and batteries. Fusion would be an adaptable, clean, essentially limitless supply of energy that would solve most of our energy needs.

Let me know if any of you read all of that.

/end rant

Okay One question, storage related. Any thoughts on the Tesla battery concept?
 

englanddg

One Little Spark...
The 1 home in 3 hours statement is meant to quantify the power we're talking about here in a manner that makes sense to people that are unfamiliar with the field, not to convey in any way how these systems operate and what happens to the power generated. The electric grid is a complex beast that is very difficult to comprehend.

As it is right now, essentially no electricity is stored in the U.S. power grid. There may be pilot energy storage projects here and there but they essentially amount to nil. That means when demand for power goes up, more coal or gas is thrown into the burner to provide more power. This happens on a real time basis. Solar power plants can't operate like this. You can't throw more sunshine on the theoretical burner to produce more power when you need it.

What solar power is good at is providing a baseline power source. You can predict within reason how much electricity your solar power sources will produce based on weather forecasts and irradiation sensors. You then need an adaptable power source like coal, gas, or (gasp) nuclear to adapt to the peaks and valleys of demand.

Right now, solar produces such a little percentage of the power consumed, so it doesn't have an appreciable effect on the system as a whole. Theoretically down the road if solar was producing say 75% of our power we would need to pay more attention to it because it's a bigger part of the picture.

If we were ever to go to 100% renewables, we would need a massive energy storage system to handle the peaks and valleys of demand as well as the times when the wind isn't blowing or the sun isn't shining. Energy storage technology is hopefully in its infancy right now and is prohibitively expensive.

Hopefully all of this is a moot point and we figure out fusion power before we spend all this money on solar and batteries. Fusion would be an adaptable, clean, essentially limitless supply of energy that would solve most of our energy needs.

Let me know if any of you read all of that.

/end rant
Fusion carries with it it's own risks, even theoretically. And, politically, it's far too often confused with fission, the big bad "nuclear".

The first expansion of clean nuclear in decades just recently (on the scale of those projects as of the past few decades) got approved here in GA to add a new reactor to Votgle. There's a lot of shared knowledge between that plant and the DoD operation at Savannah River Site, and I think that may have had something to do with it.

The scratch of the Yucca project due to various reasons (much of which had to do with the safety of transporting waste across state lines) really has put a dampner on US nuclear development.

And, while Fusion is largely a different beast, it is still associated with Fission in the mind of the mass consumer.

Solar and Wind distributed grids hold a lot of promise, but also a lot of investment and upkeep for nominal relative output. They work in some geographies (for example, wind is a massive part of the TX energy grid, which makes sense, they have lots of flatlands to make it work)...

Hydro and coastal are my two personal favorites, for the exact reasons you described. They are the most predictable, when it comes to converting natural kinetic energy to electrical. But, due to other political pressures, they have fallen out of favor.

Sadly (or rather I should say accurately) natural gas and coal (or "clean coal" as they now call it, though that just refers to anthracite, which they've burned for decades because it's high BTU yield, low waste, not because it's "cleaner"...per se...) are the cheapest we have to keep the grid flowing.

And, that's what it's about. Flow.
 

englanddg

One Little Spark...
...and on the off chance that it doesn't get used, someone will suck it up over at Gaylord Palms or somewhere else nearby. Through net metering Disney would still profit from the production of that power.
Depends on how the grids are wired. You know that though, I know I'm preaching to the choir...

I'm glad Duke Electric is doing this, because it will mean it's wired into the general grid properly. They'll sell off the local power to Disney as needed, and route any excess (if there is any) to their general grid.
 

englanddg

One Little Spark...
Okay One question, storage related. Any thoughts on the Tesla battery concept?
GE has more impressive tech.

Tesla is consumer grade stuff.

It will take me a bit to dig it up, but a few years back GE did a test of a new battery tech where they ran a factory off it for something like a day. VERY interesting read (and slightly technical)...

Few mins...
 

englanddg

One Little Spark...

englanddg

One Little Spark...
Anyhow, regarding Tesla, basically (and I do mean basically) they are powering your car off hundreds of cellular phone batteries connected to a kinetic and direct charger. The kinetic charger is tied to your brakes (and is nominal, but there). The direct charger is what you plug your car into.

Nothing amazing or truly revolutionary about it, unless you consider a Macbook with their flattened battery array "revolutionary" when it uses the same tech as your acer netbook to store the energy.
 
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TP2000

Well-Known Member
Ok, how much actual power can a solar plant that size actually produce? Hopefully this is more than just a nice "we're green" photo op.

5 Megawatts is peanuts. And that's exactly what this is, a trendy "We're Green!" photo op placed conveniently alongside the main entry road of the property. Bored housewives who read all the right blogs will be able to smugly say to the snowflakes in the backseat as they arrive at WDW "Look at the solar farm kids! Our vacation is helping to save the planet!". You can bet the Disney Parks Blog will be all over this too. Puke.

As a point of reference, the Ivanpah Solar Farm that opened a few months ago in Southern California is 550 Megawatts.

MidAmerican Solar Farm - Topaz, California = 580 Megawatts, energy for the entire city of San Luis Obispo (276,000 people)
Ivanpah Solar Farm - Desert Center, California = 550 Megawatts, energy for 160,000 homes distributed throughout SoCal
Solar Star Farm - Kern, California = 579 Megawatts, energy for 170,000 homes distributed throughout the West
NRG Solar Farm - Agua Caliente, Arizona = 470 Megawatts, energy for 200,000 homes at peak loads

This is what a massive 500+ Megawatt solar farm looks like, out in the California desert where no one ever sees it but where it works the best. Notice there's no tourist road next to it. ;)
2014-11-28-image-4.jpg



A 5 (Five!) Megawatt farm is very small potatoes by current standards and will mostly just create a feel-good and corporate-approved moment for those driving past it on their way to Disney World.
 
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PhotoDave219

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
Anyhow, regarding Tesla, basically (and I do mean basically) they are powering your car off hundreds of cellular phone batteries connected to a kinetic and direct charger. The kinetic charger is tied to your brakes (and is nominal, but there). The direct charger is what you plug your car into.

Nothing amazing or truly revolutionary about it, unless you consider a Macbook with their flattened battery array "revolutionary" when it uses the same tech as your acer netbook to store the energy.
...and on the off chance that it doesn't get used, someone will suck it up over at Gaylord Palms or somewhere else nearby. Through net metering Disney would still profit from the production of that power.

So Lemmie ask you guys this, is it possible to power a person's home with solar panels and one of those batteries?
 

Admiral01

Premium Member
A few points from an engineer;
No such thing as clean coal. It's a great marketing scheme though. Energy storage is indeed one of the major pillars of energy that needs to be tackled, along with transmission and a few others. Fusion is a great concept, and I known friends over at ITER and NIF will keep working, but we are still far off. Fission, on the other hand, is a great option for that necessary secondary source to renewables like wind and solar. New fission reactors are literally generations beyond the old gen 2 reactors we've come to know. Modern fission is amazing, but we get too much political and public controversy injected into the debate - typically by people who don't know enough to intelligently discuss the subject. I'd rather live near a fission plant than a coal plant, for many reasons.

I too could rant about this for hours (and often do at work).

Long story short, this Duke project is really neat. I like it. It will be a small percentage of overall use, but it will help demonstrate what CAN be done. That's EPCOTy. That's good for everyone.
 
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englanddg

One Little Spark...
So Lemmie ask you guys this, is it possible to power a person's home with solar panels and one of those batteries?
The short answer is, yes.

If you want to go off grid, you can. Grid supplements are the best though, imho.

@GeneralKnowledge will have better details on this, as this is the goal of the solar industry on the consumer side. Selling people to go partially off grid while supplementing the general grid during peak times.

Hawaii, actually, is an interesting test market to look at, as they've been moving this way for decades.
 

englanddg

One Little Spark...
btw...THIS is a lithium mine.

openpitconveyor.jpg


article-1166387-03D2ECEB000005DC-116_634x383.jpg


And, it's extremely toxic.

So, the next time you look at your "green iPhone"...remember, this is the element that needs to be mined to make it last for a day before needing a recharge.

And, the next time you drive your Tesla, and think how green it is...remember, it uses not only materials (lots of material) from these sorts of mines, but recharges from mines (in most of the US) that look like this.

Strip_coal_mining.jpg


"Green", eh? :p
 

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