A Spirited Perfect Ten

[PhotoDave219]

perfectly valid - different people have different needs/desires. But intelligence is recognizing that... not calling other people 'dim' because they don't align to your particular needs or because you can't see their perspective.

I cannot look down on somebody who actually wants to plan their life out.

I just have zero desire to do the same thing. And I don't like Disney forcing me to.

 

[Nmoody1]

lets give it 20 years - all those people saying trees in the hub werent important, they'll be up in arms about the deforrestation of Doscovery Island - astro turfed over and the tree of life replaced with a small fountain!

its a park... a park has trees... how many mid town american streets have a European castle at the end? the trees created a barrier of anticipation between the worlds of yesterday, fantasy and tomorrow - the castle poking over the tops of the trees was another story to be discovered after Main Street... when there was more to discover than Starbucks, Anna and Elsa balloons and that same generic Disney Parks merchandise you have seen at EPCOT, Animal Kingdom, Hollywood Studios and your resort hotel.

I remember visiting for the first time in 1991... taking all of Main Street in. The details. back then I didnt know what i fo today, about the windows and nods to disney history, but i remember unique stores, mickey mouse cartoons and Flower amd Market street.

Sadly, today everyone rushes down Main Street at park opening to get in line for restaurants they couldnt get dining reservations for or to get to 7 dwarfs mine train before the line reaches unbearable wait times. Those that don't run are either too busy choosing which coffee to have in starbucks or looking at thier phone to try and get MyMagic+ to work for them... in the process not looking up to take in surroundings or realise there are no trees. Midtown America at the turn of the century and the details the Imagineers gave us are far behind and wont be seen until nightfall, when 70k people flood the park exit after wishes, again not noticing the missing trees with twinkle lights or (fortunately) the odd extinguished light on Main Steeet.

 

[gmajew]

Restaurant point for all those people saying how they are speeding you out and not giving you time to enjoy that sometimes comes down to the guest.

I have establishments that we nicely after extended times at tables or eating us out of house and home where we place the check to send the message.

Now this is a rarity but in the establishments that I have had to do this I have lines to the door and 2 hour waits for a table but it is common practice in this industry as a tech to speed the group along or get them to stop eating.

I have never been rushed at any Disney restaurant as I am very concious of the meal time I have picked and that others need my table and they need the turn. I feel 2 hours at one of the fine dining establishments is fair and the character dining buffet setting or low level sit down is an hour.

That would be the schedule for most reservation spots.

 

[PhotoDave219]

lets give it 20 years - all those people saying trees in the hub werent important, they'll be up in arms about the deforrestation of Doscovery Island - astro turfed over and the tree of life replaced with a small fountain!

its a park... a park has trees... how many mid town american streets have a European castle at the end? the trees created a barrier of anticipation between the worlds of yesterday, fantasy and tomorrow - the castle poking over the tops of the trees was another story to be discovered after Main Street... when there was more to discover than Starbucks, Anna and Elsa balloons and that same generic Disney Parks merchandise you have seen at EPCOT, Animal Kingdom, Hollywood Studios and your resort hotel.

I remember visiting for the first time in 1991... taking all of Main Street in. The details. back then I didnt know what i fo today, about the windows and nods to disney history, but i remember unique stores, mickey mouse cartoons and Flower amd Market street.

Sadly, today everyone rushes down Main Street at park opening to get in line for restaurants they couldnt get dining reservations for or to get to 7 dwarfs mine train before the line reaches unbearable wait times. Those that don't run are either too busy choosing which coffee to have in starbucks or looking at thier phone to try and get MyMagic+ to work for them... in the process not looking up to take in surroundings or realise there are no trees. Midtown America at the turn of the century and the details the Imagineers gave us are far behind and wont be seen until nightfall, when 70k people flood the park exit after wishes, again not noticing the missing trees with twinkle lights or (fortunately) the odd extinguished light on Main Steeet.

Baloney. We've given it 12 already.

 

[WDW1974]

First, a note. But due to time issues, if you wanted my attention from before Page 410 or wanted to accuse me of anything heinous or explain to this simpleton Spirit that 'Disney is a business', then I won't be responding. I'm starting here and moving on up as the Jeffersons did (pop culture reference likely lost on approximately 71% of readers here!)

While it may look better than it has in a long time, a better question would be; Does it look better than the original design?

Form was sacrificed for function in the new hub design. Thats not to say it looks bad, but does the functionality truly outweigh the ornamental beauty of the original design? There is no right or wrong as it becomes an issue of preference. Some simply prefer the benefits of the functionality sans a more complete theme while others place a higher emphasis on artistic integrity.

74' spoke about "layered theming" in a previous post and I feel this is a good example of the loss of a "layer". The castle was previously surrounded by a heavier layer of greenery. The trees and (inaccessible) grass and flower areas not only served as a physical layer of separation but also a visual layer of separation. It flowed with the moat and created depth. IMO it had a much more unique appearance of how a castle courtyard would appear after a breaching the end of a forest.

Before:
View attachment 88635

after:
View attachment 88637

Gawwwd. I hadn't seen those pics. That second one ... the current one ... my reaction is sorta like when Willow Bay wore Yoda to the Oscars (no, not done with her by a LONG shot!): it has to be a fake.

Just awful. Ugly. Plastic. Fake. Tacky.

All the words that many faux intellectuals used in the 70s-90s to describe Disney. Wasn't true then, but d am n straight is now!

 

[gmajew]

Here is a picture from opening day at MK. The view of the castle is able to be seen immediately fully when you walk in.

If they wanted it blocked like the later pictures they would have planted bigger trees day one right? Roy was not going to cut corners on this project as he was honoring his brother.

Now the tree lined Main Street is wonderful but over time those trees got to big and they should have replaced them and repeated cycle.

Oh and benches would be nice.... I understand the logic for removing them in hub but they would be nice somewhere.

 

[PhotoDave219]

First, a note. But due to time issues, if you wanted my attention from before Page 410 or wanted to accuse me of anything heinous or explain to this simpleton Spirit that 'Disney is a business', then I won't be responding. I'm starting here and moving on up as the Jeffersons did (pop culture reference likely lost on approximately 71% of readers here!)



Gawwwd. I hadn't seen those pics. That second one ... the current one ... my reaction is sorta like when Willow Bay wore Yoda to the Oscars (no, not done with her by a LONG shot!): it has to be a fake.

Just awful. Ugly. Plastic. Fake. Tacky.

All the words that many faux intellectuals used in the 70s-90s to describe Disney. Wasn't true then, but d am n straight is now!

I knew there was a giant deforestation at the Magic Kingdom but I didn't realize it was as bad. That hobbit was the perfect spot to sit on the bench and people watch or meet up with your family or a spot to get out of the sun for a while…

So utterly ridiculous.

 

[WDW1974]

I can agree with the bolded part....with a caveat.
It doesn't look better than it has ever.

Nothing is/will be better than the tree-filled park like setting that the hub once had.

In honor of my favorite woman in the hills, I have granted you a 'like' ... but be warned, there be folks here who actually think that folks like us give a darn about how many we pile up.

I'm busy keeping track of views/clicks for @wdwmagic (but more for my huge ego, dwarfed only by the size of my blank). I want the man to have a nice retirement and be able to see the international parks or take some DCL voyages. BTW, I know you've been to DLP obviously, but have you made it to Asia or on the ships yet?

 

[Goofyernmost]

"hub is a utility"
..it has the castle..
..the partners statue..
.."it has been romanticized"

View attachment 88761

are you even trying now @Goofyernmost ?

It never was PART of the castle just led up to it with the Castle being the entrance to Fantasyland...
The partners statue is a relatively recent addition... and it's still there...
Romanticized?... I don't have to try, you guys are making it easy!

 

[WDW1974]

I'll be there this December to check it out. Looking at the pictures, it looks like it might be a good thing. Time will tell but judging by the pictures it does look aesthetically pleasing and it's high on functionality. Reality is the Magic Kingdom is frequented by more people then any other park in the United States and it needed this area.
It doesn't appear they did a bad job.
But...I'll see when I get there.

No, they didn't.

They needed to do something.

This appears to be more of anything.

And, no, it doesn't fit the location and it does change the whole feel of the park.

I'm not going to argue opinion because, again, people can like whatever (that's why we have reality TV and the Walmart and 99% of all politicians from both sides of the aisle). But they can't argue (they will though... this is a place where facts get argued ... like on FOX News) about things like design, art direction and intent.

And those FACTS are squarely on the side of those of us who can't believe how a place we loved for decades is becoming more like an O-Town outlet mall with a few attractions (in varying states of disrepair) while the newbs are claiming that we are haters and don't see the MAGIC and blah, blah ... oh, and blah.

Look, I get that if you have only been visiting WDW for eight years or a decade or maybe you had a visit back in 97 that you're fuzzy on, that you might think that today's MK is better than ever. BUT ... you should have the intellectual capacity to be able to enjoy what you do and still understand that, yes, it might have been a whole lot better in 1975 or 1985 or 1995 than it is today. You should be able to grasp that for those of us who grew up on true Disney quality and showmanship that much of what we see today is really just not very good at all.

From seeing the wholesale destruction of everything from the Hub to the Poly lobby to the grandness of the Contemporary Tower to the Empress Lilly to River Country to those Tangled Toilets, I just wonder what it is that makes people so addicted to a BRAND that they fail to see, or are unwilling to acknowledge, its large drop in quality and stature.

Yeah, but Disney owns Marvel and Star Wars and the stock is soooo high, nothing should be criticized, right?

Oh, I gotta tell you that post felt good ... sorta like when you see a big dog out on a walk when he's been cooped up inside all day while his owners have been at work and he let's a big one drop on your neighbor that you can't stand's lawn. Yep, that good!

 

[WDW1974]

View attachment 88681

Your 'before' image reminded me of what Walt Disney said about Disneyland:

“The park means a lot to me. It's something that will never be finished, something I can keep developing, keep 'plussing' and adding to. It's alive. It will be a live, breathing thing that will need changes. When you wrap up a picture and turn it over to Technicolor, you're through. Snow White is a dead issue with me. I just finished up a live-action picture, wrapped it up a few weeks ago. It's gone. I can't touch it. There are things in it I don't like, but I can't do anything about it. I want something live, something that would grow. The park is that. Not only can I add things, but even the trees will keep growing. The thing will get more beautiful year after year. And it will get better as I find out what the public likes. I can't do that with a picture; it's finished and unchangeable before I find out whether the public likes it or not.”​

I guess "the trees will keep growing" everywhere except the Magic Kingdom's central hub.

Don't quote Walt.

There are only a handful (actually maybe about a dozen) Walt quotes that the company uses and abuses.

The above wouldn't be one of them. Contact Jennifer.J.Fickley@disney.com (AKA as Dr. Blondie of the DPB team) and I'm sure she can provide you with a list of Disney approved Walt quotes. Otherwise, you'll be getting a cease and desist in the not too distant future.

 

[bhg469]

The biggest thing that I've run into during my 11 years around the Walt Disney World resort… I never knew when I was going to The kingdom. I was rarely planning anything out in my life at all. I didn't know when I will get an afternoon off 180 days in advance… so the general idea of scheduling a fast pass let alone scheduling a meal at Disney becomes ridiculous either way unless you jump through the hoops they are forcing you to jump through

I just don't like being forced to plan spontaneous activities…

Even when I used to plan an entire week there I get to the resort and take the first bus that i see to one of the parks. That was the beginning to the best times I had there. I went on my honeymoon to st lucia 2 years ago, did the exact same thing. All of our excursions could be planned the day before and we had zero issues and it was fantastic. The more I have to plan the less spontaneous it is and the less enjoyable it is for me.

 

[gmajew]

No, they didn't.

They needed to do something.

This appears to be more of anything.

And, no, it doesn't fit the location and it does change the whole feel of the park.

I'm not going to argue opinion because, again, people can like whatever (that's why we have reality TV and the Walmart and 99% of all politicians from both sides of the aisle). But they can't argue (they will though... this is a place where facts get argued ... like on FOX News) about things like design, art direction and intent.

And those FACTS are squarely on the side of those of us who can't believe how a place we loved for decades is becoming more like an O-Town outlet mall with a few attractions (in varying states of disrepair) while the newbs are claiming that we are haters and don't see the MAGIC and blah, blah ... oh, and blah.

Look, I get that if you have only been visiting WDW for eight years or a decade or maybe you had a visit back in 97 that you're fuzzy on, that you might think that today's MK is better than ever. BUT ... you should have the intellectual capacity to be able to enjoy what you do and still understand that, yes, it might have been a whole lot better in 1975 or 1985 or 1995 than it is today. You should be able to grasp that for those of us who grew up on true Disney quality and showmanship that much of what we see today is really just not very good at all.

From seeing the wholesale destruction of everything from the Hub to the Poly lobby to the grandness of the Contemporary Tower to the Empress Lilly to River Country to those Tangled Toilets, I just wonder what it is that makes people so addicted to a BRAND that they fail to see, or are unwilling to acknowledge, its large drop in quality and stature.

Yeah, but Disney owns Marvel and Star Wars and the stock is soooo high, nothing should be criticized, right?

Oh, I gotta tell you that post felt good ... sorta like when you see a big dog out on a walk when he's been cooped up inside all day while his owners have been at work and he let's a big one drop on your neighbor that you can't stand's lawn. Yep, that good!

I agree everything can be discussed and argued and you have some very valid points on the subject and we appreciat them, but In every debate the key is the truth is usually somewhere in the middle of the two sides.

The condition of some rides etc is horrible.... Main Street building look great again....

Trees are missing on Main Street stinks horrible... New hub does ease traffic.

 

[Goofyernmost]

As a DC native, I do know that Walt was a big fan of the Hub and Spoke system made popular by Pierre L'Enfant, who was the city planner/architect responsible for the first street layouts in DC. If you look at a map of DC, you can see there are hubs everywhere across the city with the corresponding spokes.

This makes sense as the concept behind DL's and MK's hub, but it still doesn't speak to the idea that large trees were allowed to develop to create a mysterious buffer between lands which gave you a nice transition so as not to clash with all of the different themed lands at once.

Apparently in the book Designing Disney by imagineer John Hench, one of the key purposes of the hub was to facilitate decision making. The hub was a place where people could VIEW all possible paths to quickly make a decision where they wanted to go. This doesn't seem to jibe with the 'provide a buffer' theory.

I guess what I'm saying is that I'm not quite convinced that the hub becoming a "thematic buffer" between lands wasn't simply an unintended side effect of letting the trees grow over time. The hub (generally speaking, not specific to DL or WDW) was about people distribution, traffic flow and decision making

Just some thoughts of mine as I think this through a little. Hoping that if I'm totally off base then somebody will correct me as to the intent and concept of Disney's hubs.

You have every reason to not be convinced, because it wasn't. Not seeing where you need to go, would cancel out the purpose of making the lands easily accessible by use of the Hub system.

I understand why people would think that it was totally intentional, but, it really was more of an aesthetic thing that just happened by nature and really was never a problem until the nighttime safety incident and the projection shows started and instantly became a must see thing. However, that said, it isn't the first time that those big trees were ripped out and replaced by smaller ones. It has happened at least a couple of times that I can remember.

 

[WDW1974]

First, fireworks never used to be a nightly thing until the past 20 years or so. They were a weekend thing for ages.

Now the fireworks standing in new fantasyland, I dig it. Feels like fireworks in the round all the time.

I do like the way The castle has always framed the fireworks. And I am looking forward to seeing the hub firsthand.... I just wish it wAs real grass.

They weren't even a weekend thing regularly back in the 70s and 80s (possibly early 90s too, would have to check reference materials).

They only became nightly at MK's 25th in fall of 1996.

Hell, I recall holidays when they were open late and didn't show pyro.

In one regard, this is added value/entertainment for all Guests. In another, it does make for very tough crowds most nights as everyone seems to funnel over to the MK to watch shows that since Wishes debuted in 2003 are Castle-centric performances.

 

[WDW1974]

Ever since the uncentered window in New Orleans Square appeared with the Club 33 redo, I have a new design scale. If the project was presented to be graded in a school of design, what grade do I think it would get?

I see the Hub and I think the instructors would see something uninspired and commonplace and therefore would be C effort. Form does not have to be sacrificed for functionality, and I bet that is taught in design schools the world over. I don't think the people who approved this, think that guests "wouldn't even notice the difference," and so that makes it a double failure in my eyes.

Extremely talented artists created the original, and this comes along to reveal how truly talented they were. And I think it's sad that Disney doesn't attract or cultivate that type of talent anymore.

I am so glad you have joined our group, hope.

You were always one of the LPers who 'got it' ... and you still do!

 

[Mike S]

Don't quote Walt.

There are only a handful (actually maybe about a dozen) Walt quotes that the company uses and abuses.

The above wouldn't be one of them. Contact Jennifer.J.Fickley@disney.com (AKA as Dr. Blondie of the DPB team) and I'm sure she can provide you with a list of Disney approved Walt quotes. Otherwise, you'll be getting a cease and desist in the not too distant future.

That quote is in One Man's Dream so that's something.

 

[doctornick]

It's two fold though. There isn't enough to do in the other parks to necessitate them closing later. They need to build more attractions in the other three parks. It's not complicated, they're underbuilt.

Oh, I think that's certainly a big part of it as well. But I also think sometimes people oversimplify it to simply be an issue of "the other parks need more rides". While that's true, it's not the only factor that leads guests to park hop to MK. If there were more large nighttime extravaganzas at the other parks, I think it would help keep people at them, especially if combined with some additional attractions.

 

[ford91exploder]

Oh, I think that's certainly a big part of it as well. But I also think sometimes people oversimplify it to simply be an issue of "the other parks need more rides". While that's true, it's not the only factor that leads guests to park hop to MK. If there were more large nighttime extravaganzas at the other parks, I think it would help keep people at them, especially if combined with some additional attractions.

Yes agree WDW needs something exciting at EACH park every day to take the load off MK.

 

[wdisney9000]

What's the next move when attendance hits another plateau and even the new hub design gets jammed and "dangerous" after Wishes let's out? Attendance will continue to rise so it's conceivable that it could reach that point.

On a separate note, I don't agree with the idea that the old hub was "dangerous" as if the new hub would be any more safe if pandemonium broke out.

I don't say that as a defense for any older hub designs either. But the same amount of people (if not more) are all still leaving at the same time and if they all started rushing for the exit the new hub design would not stop people.from trampling over little Sally. Kinda supports the idea that there are simply too many people in the MK sometimes.