2015: The year of the EPCOT makeover?

[FrankLapidus]

There is no doubt that Frozen has helped Norway tourism, but having a movie inspire people to see the real thing is a lot different then throwing a fictional movie into a pavilion about a real place. Imagine taking your kids to World Showcase so they can see what these countries are like. Then we come to Norway and they can sample some of the food, see some artifacts in the Stave Church, but then we get to the Frozen ride and you have to say to them the things they see in this ride may or may not have any relation to the real Norway.

You're spot on but beating your head up against a brick wall in this instance.

Frozen doesn't belong in World Showcase, nor anywhere else in Epcot.

 

[andycfoster]

I see the concept for Epcot but it has fell behind the times. The frozen re-theme / replacement will pull people in but not fix the underlying problem. I like to walk thew lake but for me thats all it is a walk around the lake and trying to keep the wife out of every shop. Very little pulls you in unless your on a eat/drink challenge. What epcot needs is 3 / 4 more good (not necessarily E) rides to enjoy as part of your journey that pulls you in more.

 

[RSoxNo1]

I have never heard of X2, but thanks for bringing it to my attention. I have loved roller coasters ever since I was a little girl and my parents would always take me to this cute little amusement park called Kennywood -- then we moved, so Cedar Point and Kings Islands were a little closer. After my first trip to Disney, I never went to back Cedar Point, Kings Island or Kennywood, lol.

Honestly, the X2 coaster looks a million times better than the Gatekeeper, and I see that it cost twice as much to build. I don't know but Cedar point used to be number one, I hope they're not slipping!

I only mentioned Gatekeeper because it was so cheap to build -- Disney could be three Gatekeepers for less than the Frozen overlay. With most of the infrastructure already in place, I'm hopeful that the $85 million dollar budget will do the new Frozen attraction justice.

X2 is unbelievably cool. It's ridiculously popular and I would love to see a higher capacity version in a park that can handle the demand more efficiently. If you want to ride it at Six Flags you're either waiting 90+ minutes or paying a premium to ride it.

 

[marni1971]

Google the original "X" for a shudder. Especially why X2 happened.

 

[Admiral01]

I see the concept for Epcot but it has fell behind the times. The frozen re-theme / replacement will pull people in but not fix the underlying problem. I like to walk thew lake but for me thats all it is a walk around the lake and trying to keep the wife out of every shop. Very little pulls you in unless your on a eat/drink challenge. What epcot needs is 3 / 4 more good (not necessarily E) rides to enjoy as part of your journey that pulls you in more.

I simply don't agree with this at all. EPCOT offers an immersive experience for those who want to take part. It used to be much more immersive, and in my experience, much more engaging.

For those who don't want to take part, go to the Magic Kingdom. The four parks can offer four very different experiences. The continual Kingdom-izing of EPCOT only hurts EPCOT in the long run. Nemo and Frozen are two examples of a trend going the wrong way.

 

[The Tomorrownaut]

I dont understand how Cedar Point was ever number 1, that place is a joke. And 25 million buys you a lot better than Gatekeeper, Millennium Force cost 25million.

What makes you say Cedar Point is a joke? It's a park with a different goal than any built by Disney or Universal. There's no intention of being immersive or aesthetically top shelf, its about the newest and biggest coasters that push boundaries and do something new to advance the field of thrill rides.

 

[Siren]

There is no doubt that Frozen has helped Norway tourism, but having a movie inspire people to see the real thing is a lot different then throwing a fictional movie into a pavilion about a real place. Imagine taking your kids to World Showcase so they can see what these countries are like. Then we come to Norway and they can sample some of the food, see some artifacts in the Stave Church, but then we get to the Frozen ride and you have to say to them the things they see in this ride may or may not have any relation to the real Norway.

Your argument is flawed because it is established upon the false premise that World Showcase is somehow authentic and holds sacred ground -- when it is actually more akin to taking your kids to Ikea to experience Sweden or to the Luxor in Las Vegas to explore the wonders of Egypt or to Disney's Animal Kingdom to discover Africa or even DHS as a compromise for visiting Hollywood, etc.

World Showcase should not be regarded as a substitute for visiting the real country, imo. And, if this is the case, then I find it to be more of a disservice than anything else -- touring the actual countries is nothing like a visit to World Showcase. I view it as highly "themed" entertainment with perhaps a dash of insight.

World Showcase should serve to inspire its visitors to learn more and aid in cultivating one's desire to experience the countries and cultures first hand. Frozen has already accomplished this, as we have seen with the huge increases in tourism to Norway.

By your logic, it is somehow acceptable for a mock country to represent a real country -- but, it is not okay for a fictional film inspired by the real country to coexist within a simulated country. For me, it is all one and the same -- as it manifests the spirit and culture of Norway.

It is relatively simple to draw parallels between the two lands -- as exhibited here:

<snippet>
http://filmdice.wordpress.com/2014/03/01/norwegian-connections-in-frozen/

Location: Arendal

Frozen is set in the town of Arendelle, which Norwegians will interpret as Arendal. Arendal is a lovely town in the south of Norway.

Pictured below with its fictional counterpart:

Arendal obviously lacks the mountains featured in Frozen, and the landscape of the film much more resembles the fjords and mountains of western Norway. Southern Norway is far from flat (ask any Dane who strays too far north), but like the Marvel universe that likes to butcher the geography of Tønsberg, Frozen seems to have picked the wrong name for their city. I guess it does sound a bit fairy-tale-ish in English, and I bet pronunciation was a factor. I will be interested to see if the Norwegian dub uses the regular pronunciation. I’m sure all the kids from Arendal will love that.

Architecture

Like the geography, the houses of the town of Arendelle more resemble the architecture of the western town of Bergen, arguably one of Norway’s most beautiful cities architecturally speaking, and certainly the most famous. The docks are on UNESCO’s world heritage list. Look at the details on the houses by the docks in Arendelle below, and compare with Bergen:

</snippet>

The ice cutting scene from Frozen is so compelling. Guests will long to see the spectacular Northern Lights! http://www.nordnorge.com/en/frozen/?News=405

I am not discounting your feelings at all. But, all I have observed is an emotionally charged and passionate opinion -- of which, I totally respect. I never liked Duffy, I refuse to even look at him -- this bear just irritates me, but I don't feel Disney should get rid of Duffy just because I don't like him. Your opinion evokes the same line of reasoning here -- it's personal and subjective. And, I totally respect that.

I will miss Maelstrom, as it was a great ride. And again, I would have preferred a brand new attraction in another park. But, there is a lot of high quality content and material in Frozen to make this a suitable replacement for Maelstrom -- so long as it is executed with careful attention to detail.

Remember, Walt Disney embraced change.

I would rather entertain and hope that people learned something than educate people and hope they were entertained. Walt Disney

 

[danlb_2000]

Your argument is flawed because it is established upon the false premise that World Showcase is somehow authentic and holds sacred ground -- when it is actually more akin to taking your kids to Ikea to experience Sweden or to the Luxor in Las Vegas to explore the wonders of Egypt or to Disney's Animal Kingdom to discover Africa or even DHS as a compromise for visiting Hollywood, etc.

World Showcase should not be regarded as a substitute for visiting the real country, imo. And, if this is the case, then I find it to be more of a disservice than anything else -- touring the actual countries is nothing like a visit to World Showcase. I view it as highly "themed" entertainment with perhaps a dash of insight.

World Showcase should serve to inspire its visitors to learn more and aid in cultivating one's desire to experience the countries and cultures first hand. Frozen has already accomplished this, as we have seen with the huge increases in tourism to Norway.

By your logic, it is somehow acceptable for a mock country to represent a real country -- but, it is not okay for a fictional film inspired by the real country to coexist within a simulated country. For me, it is all one and the same -- as it manifests the spirit and culture of Norway.

It is relatively simple to draw parallels between the two lands -- as exhibited here:

<snippet>
http://filmdice.wordpress.com/2014/03/01/norwegian-connections-in-frozen/

Location: Arendal

Frozen is set in the town of Arendelle, which Norwegians will interpret as Arendal. Arendal is a lovely town in the south of Norway.

Pictured below with its fictional counterpart:

Arendal obviously lacks the mountains featured in Frozen, and the landscape of the film much more resembles the fjords and mountains of western Norway. Southern Norway is far from flat (ask any Dane who strays too far north), but like the Marvel universe that likes to butcher the geography of Tønsberg, Frozen seems to have picked the wrong name for their city. I guess it does sound a bit fairy-tale-ish in English, and I bet pronunciation was a factor. I will be interested to see if the Norwegian dub uses the regular pronunciation. I’m sure all the kids from Arendal will love that.

Architecture

Like the geography, the houses of the town of Arendelle more resemble the architecture of the western town of Bergen, arguably one of Norway’s most beautiful cities architecturally speaking, and certainly the most famous. The docks are on UNESCO’s world heritage list. Look at the details on the houses by the docks in Arendelle below, and compare with Bergen:

</snippet>

The ice cutting scene from Frozen is so compelling. Guests will long to see the spectacular Northern Lights! http://www.nordnorge.com/en/frozen/?News=405

I am not discounting your feelings at all. But, all I have observed is an emotionally charged and passionate opinion -- of which, I totally respect. I never liked Duffy, I refuse to even look at him -- this bear just irritates me, but I don't feel Disney should get rid of Duffy just because I don't like him. Your opinion evokes the same line of reasoning here -- it's personal and subjective. And, I totally respect that.

I will miss Maelstrom, as it was a great ride. And again, I would have preferred a brand new attraction in another park. But, there is a lot of high quality content and material in Frozen to make this a suitable replacement for Maelstrom -- so long as it is executed with careful attention to detail.

Remember, Walt Disney embraced change.

I would rather entertain and hope that people learned something than educate people and hope they were entertained. Walt Disney

I think there is a big difference between presenting an idealized version of a country, which is what WS does, and dropping an IP into a pavilion that only has a very loose connection to the country.

Why is that a lot of people who are for this idea always fall back on "Walt Disney embraced change"? Are you implying that all change is good and should not be questioned? I am sure Walt would not have felt that way. Would you have defended the closing of Wonders of Life, or Imageworks upstairs at the Imagination Pavilion as ok because "Walt embraced change"? Embracing change is good advice, as long as you don't subscribe to it unconditionally. There are times when change is bad and should be resisted despite what the people making the change may want you to believe.

Yes, there are cases where people will defend things just because they don't like change, but that is not always the case. There are times when people honestly feel that change is a bad thing. I saw the Celebrate a Dream Come True parade at MK for the first time on my Honeymoon, so I had a strong emotional attachment to it, but I had absolutely no problem with it being replaced by Festival of Fantasy because the new parade is good quality and is an appropriate replacement. On the other hand I have only rode Maelstrom 2 or 3 times and don't have any real attachment to it, so my opposition has nothing to do with change, but instead with what I and a lot of other consider in-appropriate change.

 

[Siren]

So, if Captain America somehow increased tourism to the U.S., it would be fine for Disney to bulldoze The American Adventure for a Captain America ride (assuming they somehow got the rights to Marvel in Florida)?

Very funny. American Adventure portrays a chronological and historical account of American History. Captain America is fiction, so no, it would not make a suitable replacement. With that said, I still struggle to grasp the point you are attempting to make.

Maelstrom was based on fictional accounts of Norwegian myths and folklore. Initially, Norway sponsors were extremely displeased with the overemphasis placed on trolls and insisted that Disney incorporate additional modern elements to reflect Norway in a more positive light. I loved the boat and harbor scene at end but this perspective has always felt forced, as it never quite meshed for me -- and now we know, it is because Norway sponsors did not like the trolls. Frozen is also a fictional account inspired by Norwegian culture, it is not that great of a departure.

I guess you are opposed to the rumored Ratatouille ride in France, too. Well, I'm not -- I would just love to see that come to fruition, as well.

 

[danlb_2000]

Very funny. American Adventure portrays a chronological and historical account of American History. Captain America is fiction, so no, it would not make a suitable replacement. With that said, I still struggle to grasp the point you are attempting to make.

Maelstrom was based on fictional accounts of Norwegian myths and folklore. Initially, Norway sponsors were extremely displeased with the overemphasis placed on trolls and insisted that Disney incorporate additional modern elements to reflect Norway in a more positive light. I loved the boat and harbor scene at end but this perspective has always felt forced, as it never quite meshed for me -- and now we know, it is because Norway sponsors did not like the trolls. Frozen is also a fictional account inspired by Norwegian culture, it is not that great of a departure.

I guess you are opposed to the rumored Ratatouille ride in France, too. Well, I'm not -- I would just love to see that come to fruition, as well.

Captain America teaches about WWII, why would it be in-appropriate in American Adventure?

 

[Siren]

I think there is a big difference between presenting an idealized version of a country, which is what WS does, and dropping an IP into a pavilion that only has a very loose connection to the country.

Why is that a lot of people who are for this idea always fall back on "Walt Disney embraced change"? Are you implying that all change is good and should not be questioned? I am sure Walt would not have felt that way. Would you have defended the closing of Wonders of Life, or Imageworks upstairs at the Imagination Pavilion as ok because "Walt embraced change"? Embracing change is good advice, as long as you don't subscribe to it unconditionally. There are times when change is bad and should be resisted despite what the people making the change may want you to believe.

Yes, there are cases where people will defend things just because they don't like change, but that is not always the case. There are times when people honestly feel that change is a bad thing. I saw the Celebrate a Dream Come True parade at MK for the first time on my Honeymoon, so I had a strong emotional attachment to it, but I had absolutely no problem with it being replaced by Festival of Fantasy because the new parade is good quality and is an appropriate replacement. On the other hand I have only rode Maelstrom 2 or 3 times and don't have any real attachment to it, so my opposition has nothing to do with change, but instead with what I and a lot of other consider in-appropriate change.

Maelstrom had a very loose connection to the Norway. I dare you to go Norway and find hideous trolls popping out at every turn.

You totally ignored Walt Disney's quote.

I would rather entertain and hope that people learned something than educate people and hope they were entertained. Walt Disney

Walt's philosophy was to *entertain* with the hopes that people will learn something -- not educate with the hope of guests being entertained.

Frozen in Norway does just that. The new attraction will draw in huge crowds that will be exposed to Norwegian culture, something that Maelstrom has failed to accomplish for almost thirty years.

I agree that not all change is good change but in this instance, it may very well be possible. You must realize that the majority of people do not hold this strong of an association with World Showcase, in the way that you do. Again, I see subjective opinion and colorful semantics but nothing concrete to demonstrate why Frozen is not a good replacement for Maelstrom.

I was irritated with Starbucks taking over the Main St. Bakery in MK. Not so much with Starbucks, but with the way Disney handled it, I never frequented the bakery to begin. But anyway, many guests were disenfranchised by the elimination of what they once considered a Disney tradition. But, the bakery is gone and Starbucks is here and it continues to thrive. The same will happen with Frozen in Norway.

 

[Siren]

What makes you say Cedar Point is a joke? It's a park with a different goal than any built by Disney or Universal. There's no intention of being immersive or aesthetically top shelf, its about the newest and biggest coasters that push boundaries and do something new to advance the field of thrill rides.

LOL, this is so true. I grew up going to Cedar Point and it was very exciting to have a new attraction to look forward to, like almost every year. When we first visited Disney, it so was confusing, because at Cedar Point everything is open and exposed. The pathways are clearly defined and the queues are are easily visible. Anyway, the first time we went to Disney World, we were wondering where all the rides were, lol. I was more impressed with the pool because it was so hot and crowded, until I discovered all the attractions we missed.

 

[danlb_2000]

Maelstrom had a very loose connection to the Norway. I dare you to go Norway and find hideous trolls popping out at every turn.

You totally ignored Walt Disney's quote.

I would rather entertain and hope that people learned something than educate people and hope they were entertained. Walt Disney

Walt's philosophy was to *entertain* with the hopes that people will learn something -- not educate with the hope of guests being entertained.

Frozen in Norway does just that. The new attraction will draw in huge crowds that will be exposed to Norwegian culture, something that Maelstrom has failed to accomplish for almost thirty years.

I agree that not all change is good change but in this instance, it may very well be possible. You must realize that the majority of people do not hold this strong of an association with World Showcase, in the way that you do. Again, I see subjective opinion and colorful semantics but nothing concrete to demonstrate why Frozen is not a good replacement for Maelstrom.

I was irritated with Starbucks taking over the Main St. Bakery in MK. Not so much with Starbucks, but with the way Disney handled it, I never frequented the bakery to begin. But anyway, many guests were disenfranchised by the elimination of what they once considered a Disney tradition. But, the bakery is gone and Starbucks is here and it continues to thrive. The same will happen with Frozen in Norway.

I guess you meant to say "...nothing concrete that I accept..." because I have been very clear on why it doesn't belong. The Frozen ride may end up educating people, but it will educate them about the culture and history of Arendelle, not Norway.

 

[Siren]

Captain America teaches about WWII, why would it be in-appropriate in American Adventure?

LOL. I wouldn't go as far to say that Captain America *teaches* about WWII, the film's setting happens to be during of that era. The question was "would it be fine for Disney to bulldoze The American Adventure for a Captain America ride?" The suggestion is so outlandish to begin with. Disney can easily incorporate true accounts of WWII history, without compromising any of what is already being presented.

 

[MagicHappens1971]

what is taking disney so long? it can't be that hard to do some new attractions and/or revamps of previous ones.

 

[MagicHappens1971]

LOL. I wouldn't go as far to say that Captain America *teaches* about WWII, the film's setting happens to be during of that era. The question was "would it be fine for Disney to bulldoze The American Adventure for a Captain America ride?" The suggestion is so outlandish to begin with. Disney can easily incorporate true accounts of WWII history, without compromising any of what is already being presented.

Now I am convinced that you just want disagree with me for the sake of disagreeing. You defend the preservation of Maelstrom tooth and nail, over so much as a stone being overturned. But, now you are touting that American Adventure should be bulldozed for a Captain America ride? Give me a break. Next time, just say "hello, Siren." That's works just as well, and it's so much easier.

disney can't use any (old) marvel characters in the walt disney world resort.

 

[MagicHappens1971]

The thing is the could move the ratatouille ride from disneyland paris, because its not doing so well recently (the park) so what if they just close disneyland paris and move the rat ride?

 

[MagicHappens1971]

Someone mentioned marvel rides being built, but I took the Keys to the Kingdom tour last week and the CM mentioned that Sanghai was getting an Iron Man ride. However, due to an agreement with Universal, Disney is not allowed to built Marvel stuff in Florida. They can use it at other parks outside of the state, just not here.

they can use certain marvel characters like the guardians of the galaxy. But they can't use any of the original/older ones, for example Spider man, captain america, batman, ect.

 

[MagicHappens1971]

Disney tasked you to create an attraction based on a cheap Spider-man/Transformers rip-off?

disney could use one like that though.

 

[danlb_2000]

LOL. I wouldn't go as far to say that Captain America *teaches* about WWII, the film's setting happens to be during of that era. The question was "would it be fine for Disney to bulldoze The American Adventure for a Captain America ride?" The suggestion is so outlandish to begin with. Disney can easily incorporate true accounts of WWII history, without compromising any of what is already being presented.

Now I am convinced that you just want disagree with me for the sake of disagreeing. You defend the preservation of Maelstrom tooth and nail, over so much as a stone being overturned. But, now you are touting that American Adventure should be bulldozed for a Captain America ride? Give me a break. Next time, just say "hello, Siren." That's works just as well, and it's so much easier.

I wasn't advocating putting Captain America in American Adventure, I was trying to make the point that if you think it's ok to put Frozen in Norway, then putting Captain America in AA isn't much different. Your first paragraph is exactly how I feel about Frozen in Norway, I don't see the difference between the two.

Where did I ever defend Maelstrom? I made it perfectly clear that I have no special attachment to Maelstrom, I wouldn't care if it was replaced as long as it was replaced with something appropriate.