Four Parks: One Stale World?

[Pumbas Nakasak]

I agree with you COMPLETELY!!!!

Based on your last visit what did you find wrong with Universal and Sea World?

 

[WDW1974]

I could not agree more. What you are saying resonates with me and sums up just about everything I want to say to management. Even when they do decide to add new attractions, these poorly executed excuses for Disney theme park entertainment end up being duds in my opinion. They have been very pale and anemic attempts to satisfy the need for more entertainment unit capacity in just about every case since the mid nineties.

Stitch, Imagination, Nemo, Mexico, Laugh Floor - I could go on and on about how disappointing each of these venues are in my opinion. Even Everest isn't up to the standards of the 60s and 70s. it's a decent family coaster, but it lacks everything else. There are basically two show scenes, and I'm being very generous there. Even Big Thunder offers more.

Disney has gone down hill in quality in just about every area. The 3D attractions are another example. Why is everyone so impressed with Philarmagic? This attraction offers nothing new in the way of theater effects or even content. It's another montage of Disney animation! Even Honey I Shrunk the Audience includes more. At least it includes a theater motion base and the first leg ticklers. What has Philarmagic pioneered?

I know I'm in the minority on most of these opinions but I own an entertainment design firm and have worked for WDI as well as Universal and I know what could be accomplished. The problem not only lies with upper management and their reluctance to move forward despite the current economic trends but the blame must also be placed on WDI itself. I would kill to be given anywhere close to the budgets on my projects that they get to work with on a regular basis.

I can tell you that on a recent project that we just completed we were given less than half the budget Disney had for the Haunted Mansion redo and our ride was getting reviews during exit surveys that included comments such as, "better then Disney" and "extremely unique."

It's not always how much money you have to work with but how that money is managed. It's sad to say but much of the money goes to useless managers that add very little, and sometimes hinder, the creative and technical process.

I just spoke with a friend of mine who does a lot of creative development freelance work for WDI. He is confirming what you are saying regarding the lack of green lights for new projects in Florida. management is looking at the failure of Hard Rock Park for example? What the $^$%&$! Why are they looking there? That park has nothing to do with WDWs model and it opened with about half the attraction capacity it should of had for a $50 gate price. It is thinking like that and the lack of foresight with respect to the economy that has put WDW in the position it is now. After 9-11 they did the same thing. Considering the development cycle can average four years why are they waiting to see what happens?

Sorry for the rant, It is sometimes cathartic to release these thoughts in writing for at least one person to read. Okay back to your regularly scheduled programming.

Thanks for the rant ... you say nothing that I can disagree with.

When it comes to attractions that wow!, Disney has fallen far short with most of its efforts this decade. Everest would be the closest thing to a home run ... Soarin is also high quality, but I have issues with film-based attractions to begin with because they lose something with repeated visits.

But what has been added to WDW since 2000 is largely mediocre to pure crap.

And I don't consider plussing existing attractions (no matter how well done like Mansion was for example) to be something new. Back in the 'old days' Disney would routintely do just that during annual rehabs ... even if the changes were minor.

And it isn't all a money issue as you state. WDI is so bloated and spends money like it's the Federal government giving our tax dollars to Wall Street. There's little if any accountability.

What's worse is that so many 'fans' have become accustomed to attractions like Tiki Room Under Tom Fitzgerald's Management, Aladdin's Flying Carpet Traffic Jammer, Journey Into WDI's Lack of Imagination Versions 2.0 and 3.0, Primeval Whirl, Hurl and Kill, Stitch's Great Belchoff and my fave, MILF, that they truly don't know what a quality Disney attraction really is.

It's also one thing to not know any better because you don't have the experience and perspective. It's another to happily envelop yourself in a pixie dust cloud of ignorance and sit back and defend mediocrity.

 

[drew81]

Thanks for the rant ... you say nothing that I can disagree with.

When it comes to attractions that wow!, Disney has fallen far short with most of its efforts this decade. Everest would be the closest thing to a home run ... Soarin is also high quality, but I have issues with film-based attractions to begin with because they lose something with repeated visits.

But largely what has been added to WDW since 2000 is largely mediocre to pure crap.

And I don't consider plussing existing attractions (no matter how well done like Mansion was for example) to be something new. Back in the 'old days' Disney would routintely do just that during annual rehabs ... even if the changes were minor.

And it isn't all a money issue as you state. WDI is so bloated and spends money like it's the Federal government giving our tax dollars to Wall Street. There's little if any accountability.

What's worse is that so many 'fans' have become accustomed to attractions like Tiki Room Under Tom Fitzgerald's Management, Aladdin's Flying Carpet Traffic Jammer, Journey Into WDI's Lack of Imagination Versions 2.0 and 3.0, Primeval Whirl, Hurl and Kill, Stitch's Great Belchoff and my fave, MILF, that they truly don't know what a quality Disney attraction really is.

It's also one thing to not know any better because you don't have the experience and perspective. It's another to happilly envelop yourself in a pixie dust cloud of ignorance and sit back and defend mediocrity.

I'm not a fan of Fitzgerald. If an imagineer like Tony Baxter were given some freedom and money to come up with something new I bet he would deliver; especially on something like Journey Into Your Imagination.

 

[WDW1974]

Ok, it sounds like you are saying the world isn't exactly "stale", but headed off in a direction that is different than when the parks where opened. Some of that direction may work, some may not. Marketing the parks needs some creativeness more than anything else IMHO. They have been trying to keep the 2000 celebration going with different versions. If you are waiting for a new "Walt" to bring the company back from the execs working for stockholders, you may be waiting awhile. I guess for me, they have a ways to go before I let those problems take away from me a place and a feeling that is very special.

No. I am saying much of WDW is stale.

Stale means the same as a loaf of bread sitting on the shelves today with a date of Oct. 27th on it. It is edible. And healthy. And may even be tasty depending on what you stick between two slices.

But it's best days have passed and no one is baking anything new.

The management may toss out some cheap cookies that may give you a 30-second sugar high, but have no substance at all.

Far too much of WDW feels like its best days were years (or decades ago).

I sometimes think that so many in the fan community are blind to what has made Disney, Disney. They don't remember when there wouldn't be any chunks of concrete missing from walkways and sidewalks. They don't remember when there wouldn't be door frames with wood rot. They wouldn't remember when you'd never see any CM (lead, manager or whatever) not in costume. They wouldn't remember when 'suits' were called that because they wore nice, professional suits and not Gap ware. They wouldn't remember when you'd always see signs for 'Wet paint' because Disney painted EVERY day. They wouldn't remember when you'd never see Jack Skellington and Pirates merchandise on sale in Tomorrowland because ... well, it didn't belong. They wouldn't remember when you'd never see staggered hours for attractions or dining locales because it was bad show.

Staleness is a state of mind as much as anything.

But I really get the idea that most fans are so high on pixie dust and churro droppings that they could trip over a corpse on Main Street and not even notice.

 

[whylightbulb]

Thanks for the rant ... you say nothing that I can disagree with.

When it comes to attractions that wow!, Disney has fallen far short with most of its efforts this decade. Everest would be the closest thing to a home run ... Soarin is also high quality, but I have issues with film-based attractions to begin with because they lose something with repeated visits.

But largely what has been added to WDW since 2000 is largely mediocre to pure crap.

And I don't consider plussing existing attractions (no matter how well done like Mansion was for example) to be something new. Back in the 'old days' Disney would routintely do just that during annual rehabs ... even if the changes were minor.

And it isn't all a money issue as you state. WDI is so bloated and spends money like it's the Federal government giving our tax dollars to Wall Street. There's little if any accountability.

What's worse is that so many 'fans' have become accustomed to attractions like Tiki Room Under Tom Fitzgerald's Management, Aladdin's Flying Carpet Traffic Jammer, Journey Into WDI's Lack of Imagination Versions 2.0 and 3.0, Primeval Whirl, Hurl and Kill, Stitch's Great Belchoff and my fave, MILF, that they truly don't know what a quality Disney attraction really is.

It's also one thing to not know any better because you don't have the experience and perspective. It's another to happilly envelop yourself in a pixie dust cloud of ignorance and sit back and defend mediocrity.

LOL absolutely! I just can't understand how WDW fans can visit a place that includes the Haunted mansion, Tower of Terror and Pirates and still find Buzz Lightyear, MILF and Dinosaur or even Soarin' to be anywhere close in camparison.

All we are saying is give quality a chance. Whatever happened to quality writing like we had for Cranium Command or Horizons. Now we get junk like Toy Story Mania, for example, that makes no sense at all. It would have been nice, just off the top of my head, if maybe we became the passengers on Barbie's car on a trip through Als Toy Barn. Great opportunity for comedy, game and adventure. Best of all the ride would have made sense and it would not just have been about the 3D video game. I enjoy the game as much as the next person, but when it could have been so much more, and for the same money, it is quite disappointing.

I agree with you regarding the video based attractions but even there, if the writing and content are done correctly, we can be happy with the presentation.

For all those fans that accept the mediocre quality, low budgets and corporate excuses I humbly suggest that if we all expressed our disatisfaction with the state of things as they are now maybe it would help drive some decisions in a different direction and we can all benefit with higher quality attractions. Even the most die hard fan can admit that they'd like more excitement, more attention to detail, and a higher level of creativity and craftsmanship in the new projects. If enough Ap holders continue to defend the company's actions or non-actions they will have no reason to change. Even if you're satisfied with the product don't you want Disney to deliver the best it can? If you knew there was so much more potential wouldn't you demand that? After all, that is what you are paying for.

 

[Hrudey3032]

Won't somebody please ban the all-too-ever-so-negative WDW1974 from this forum? He's not welcome here, IMO.

Actually, he's not welcome at ANY Disney forum, due to his annoying and often discriminatory elitist attitude. And it's obvious that he's waaaaaaaay too anti-Disney for his own good.

Also, WDW1974, if you hate WDW so much, STOP GOING THERE!!!

Where are the "voices of reason" like Enderikari and Wannab@dis when you need them?!

Who is the Elitist here? You are wanting someone kicked off a board for expressing their view on something?That is just as much a elitist. Look I may not agree with everything WDW1974 said but to ban him?get real. As long as he explains why his views are the way they are(which he has IMHO) then I am happy to debate with him and enjoy a intelligent conversation.I believe him to be a huge Disney sentimentalist who does not like the direction WDW has taken.That is his view and he is entitled to that.

If Steve(Owner) has no problems with him then don't worry about him.He has called no one a name and has been quite articulate and has been well thought out in his argument. If you don't like his views you can always block him and not see his comments.

 

[WDW1974]

I have not noticed gum all over the pavement, but then again, I'm not looking for it. Maybe there is a perceptible difference in the overall cleanliness of the parks between now and 20 years ago. But I suspect it is not a difference the vast majority of guests are aware of or care much about.

And that there, my friend, is the biggest problem.

After spending 40-some years selling the public on a product that was as close to perfect as could be, Disney has been able to WalMart its product over the past 10-12 years so that most people are simply ignorant. They either don't know or don't care.

So what if the parks are MUCH dirtier than in 1988? Who cares? They're still cleaner than Universal and Busch, right? Uhm ... actually, no they're not even close. What about Six`Flags? OK, yeah, I guess they are (being that I don't go to Six Flags, I am just taking others' word on that one!)

Disney used to proudly tout that fact that before a bucket of popcorn fell to the pavement it was cleaned up. It really used to be that way. Now, you can walk by the same piece of trash day after day before someone notices AND desires to pick it up.

What people today don't get is that Disney was about things like cleanliness and service and overall immersion and NOT about character dining, Jon Benet Boutiques, people standing in the middle of Main Street trying to sell pictures, 10 cent pins being sold for $12.95 and paying an extra $55 to experience Halloween or Christmas.

People truly are like sheep (but the the last eight years has proven that much better than my dime store theme park analysis can!)

Sure, the stores all sell the same crap. 20 years ago, they all sold slightly different crap. Not much of an argument.

No. Actually 20 years ago they didn't all sell different crap. They had shops that sold higher quality products and products themed to the area they were located in. They helped tell the story.

Then the consultants came to power in the 1990s and suddenly every location had to meet specific financial goals. The consultants didn't understand the concept of show, of even having locations that weren't profitable on their own but added to the quality of the experience.

So that's why Main Street is nothing more than one sickening giant World of Disney crap outlet with meaningless facades.

That's why where there used to be four unique shops in Liberty Square we have three combined into one giant Disney character Christmas shop (because after all LS is all about the meaning of Christmas) and another simply blacked out and closed.

That's why the entire second level of the Canada pavilion is simply closed.

I could go on ... I won't.

But Disney merchandising in 2008 is a far different animal than it was in 1988.

Finally, I'm unclear as to how the average CM weight has anything to do with my overall enjoyment of WDW. I'm much, much more concerned with customer service than I am with a CM's physique. And I've been very pleased with the CMs I have encountered at the World - friendly, helpful, cheerful - they do a phenomenal job.

Because Disney used to have an image. That image involved attractive, professional looking CMs. This may not be politically correct (not that I give a flying you know what) but slovenly morbidly obese CMs do NOT portray a postive image. They portray the opposite. A sad one. And the customer service I have been receiving has been very lacking in many ways. I got stare downs (psychotic looking ones) from a few CMs who I happened to make eye contact with. I said 'hello' to more than a few who simply ignored me and kept walking. If you think any of this would have been acceptable in the 70s or 80s or most of the 90s, you're 100% wrong.

What actually keeps the quality of the cast as high as it is would be three groups: international program members, college kids and retirees.

Please define "making magic". AK is the newest park, and I find it to be filled with magic. The theming is on a par with the MK, and the attractions are top notch. I don't believe the CMs could be any more attentive.

I can't define making magic. I simply know it when I experience it. And that's my point, it's different for everyone. Or it should be.

But in the past decade Disney has done little but 'market the magic' in advertsing campaigns that try and suggests the Mouse (for a price) can create pre-packaged magical experiences. The Year of a Million Dreams But Mostly Free Cheap Crap That No one Wants would be a great example of that.

I do agree with you about DAK, though ... and I'll go further. The theming at DAK surpasses almost every area of the MK by a large degree.

As to the CMs ... I've said my piece.

And it would certainly make for a less profitable Disney (and, in turn, a lower quality experience) than what is being offered now.

You, like I, have no idea in knowing what would have happened had Disney decided to not throw out four decades of theme park experience and gone with consultants/outsiders who had no clue what they were breaking.

 

[WDW1974]

Won't somebody please ban the all-too-ever-so-negative WDW1974 from this forum? He's not welcome here, IMO.

Actually, he's not welcome at ANY Disney forum, due to his annoying and often discriminatory elitist attitude. And it's obvious that he's waaaaaaaay too anti-Disney for his own good.

Also, WDW1974, if you hate WDW so much, STOP GOING THERE!!!

Where are the "voices of reason" like Enderikari and Wannab@dis when you need them?!

Who ever said Disney fan sites were full of intelligent, articulate, rational posters?

Certainly, not I!

Hey Nut, I got an idea for you, when you can actually add something intelligent to a debate/discussion go for it.

Until then, it might be best if you just took your meds (or pixie dust) and let us grownups talk.

 

[WDW1974]

I don't know... Do you have any pants on?

I never post with any pants on.

But that's because I like to speak the naked truth.

 

[WDW1974]

agreed, WDW1974 is very welcome.

Appreciate those feelings (though I'd rather have some ice cream).

But I did just get a fairly large work project dumped in my lap that is due Thursday, so I may have to bow out for a while and let the inmates take over the asylum.

 

[jt04]

Appreciate those feelings (though I'd rather have some ice cream).

But I did just get a fairly large work project dumped in my lap that is due Thursday, so I may have to bow out for a while and let the inmates take over the asylum.

Just don't let that project keep you from voting :lookaroun

Hope you will return soon as you are voicing the opinion of more than a few people here.....

 

[wdwCC]

No. I am saying much of WDW is stale.

Stale means the same as a loaf of bread sitting on the shelves today with a date of Oct. 27th on it. It is edible. And healthy. And may even be tasty depending on what you stick between two slices.

But it's best days have passed and no one is baking anything new.

The management may toss out some cheap cookies that may give you a 30-second sugar high, but have no substance at all.

Far too much of WDW feels like its best days were years (or decades ago).

I sometimes think that so many in the fan community are blind to what has made Disney, Disney. They don't remember when there wouldn't be any chunks of concrete missing from walkways and sidewalks. They don't remember when there wouldn't be door frames with wood rot. They wouldn't remember when you'd never see any CM (lead, manager or whatever) not in costume. They wouldn't remember when 'suits' were called that because they wore nice, professional suits and not Gap ware. They wouldn't remember when you'd always see signs for 'Wet paint' because Disney painted EVERY day. They wouldn't remember when you'd never see Jack Skellington and Pirates merchandise on sale in Tomorrowland because ... well, it didn't belong. They wouldn't remember when you'd never see staggered hours for attractions or dining locals because it was bad show.

Staleness is a state of mind as much as anything.

But I really get the idea that most fans are so high on pixie dust and churro droppings that they could trip over a corpse on Main Street and not even notice.

I like the bread thing. If the state of things has gotten that bad, what would be the "line in the sand" when management takes notice? If the vast majority only comes once in a while and don't notice things, and gets enough bodies through the gate to produce a profit, when is that point they would be forced to return to previous Disney standards? I am sort of hearing you want Disney to return to Disney standards, and not a Six Flaggs standard. Is that a good description?

 

[Computer Magic]

I like the bread thing. If the state of things has gotten that bad, what would be the "line in the sand" when management takes notice? If the vast majority only comes once in a while and don't notice things, and gets enough bodies through the gate to produce a profit, when is that point they would be forced to return to previous Disney standards? I am sort of hearing you want Disney to return to Disney standards, and not a Six Flaggs standard. Is that a good description?

When they lose market share to their competitors. Sadly, it has come to that. Instead of wanting to be the best by leap and bounds, do "just" enough.

 

[WDW1974]

I'm not a fan of Fitzgerald. If an imagineer like Tony Baxter were given some freedom and money to come up with something new I bet he would deliver; especially on something like Journey Into Your Imagination.

Tony isn't really the answer anymore than Tom.

He is considerably more talented, I believe.

But his years in the sun are behind him, and I wouldn't expect him to have an impact on much of anything outside of Disneyland before he retires (likely in 2011-2012).

One might say having these two dueling divas of WDI constantly doing battle the past 15 years has been one major reason behind the toxic atmopshere on Flower Street.

 

[WDW1974]

Just don't let that project keep you from voting :lookaroun

Hope you will return soon as you are voicing the opinion of more than a few people here.....

I voted two weeks ago! First day I could!
(although being a Floridian one wonders if it will actually count!)

And I am sure I'll be back ...

 

[Figment1986]

I voted two weeks ago! First day I could!
(although being a Floridian one wonders if it will actually count!)

And I am sure I'll be back ...

Get to work then already! You hate procrastinating after all.. :drevil:

 

[SirGoofy]

So what if the parks are MUCH dirtier than in 1988? Who cares? They're still cleaner than Universal and Busch, right? Uhm ... actually, no they're not even close.

Gotta disagree with you on this one. Everytime I visited Uni on my CP the place looked like utter crap.

Because Disney used to have an image. That image involved attractive, professional looking CMs. This may not be politically correct (not that I give a flying you know what) but slovenly morbidly obese CMs do NOT portray a postive image. They portray the opposite. A sad one. And the customer service I have been receiving has been very lacking in many ways. I got stare downs (psychotic looking ones) from a few CMs who I happened to make eye contact with. I said 'hello' to more than a few who simply ignored me and kept walking. If you think any of this would have been acceptable in the 70s or 80s or most of the 90s, you're 100% wrong.

What actually keeps the quality of the cast as high as it is would be three groups: international program members, college kids and retirees.

You may have mistyped this, because I can't exactly understand what you're trying to say.

Are you putting down these groups of employees? Because if you are I take offense to this. These three groups are the best cast members I have ever encountered. Yes, there's the college program CMs who hate working for Disney, but they are the extreme minority. And the retirees are the sweetest group of people there.

 

[hokielutz]

it's a personal thought as well as saying stuff.... it spurs conversation and thoughts on the concept. He does bring up interesting points on attractions being made elsewhere and comparing it to what disney is doing right now.

This kind of discussion was done already over a month ago with the whole "Potterland is being created, so what is Disney doing to counter, etc..."

Same kind of antagonizing, same heated responses...

They are fun threads to read, but it gets annoying especially since the general discussion was done not too long ago.

 

[coasterphil]

So what if the parks are MUCH dirtier than in 1988? Who cares? They're still cleaner than Universal and Busch, right? Uhm ... actually, no they're not even close. What about Six`Flags? OK, yeah, I guess they are (being that I don't go to Six Flags, I am just taking others' word on that one!)

I can't agree with this. While SeaWorld is absolutely immaculate, Universal is pretty bad.

 

[CBOMB]

I agree with your critique...however, does it really add anything to re-post the posts that are seen (to you) as attacks? Really, that seems to cause more problems and create more bad will, than if it was just left with the person posting the original "attack". And, what you consider an attack, may not be an attack at all...just a miscommunication from the internet and not getting total context.

I, personally, am one who has to kind of agree with the OP...I would like to see Disney step up, in a lot of ways that was posted.

You are probably correct. I just get so tired of posters trying to belittle another poster because they either don't like the tone of the post or they disagree with what the poster has to say. There is nothing wrong with honest disagreement or defending a different view. It only seems to become a problem when people make the suggestion your post has no business being on a WDW forum. Most of the times it seems to happen when someones post is perceived as a slam on WDW.