Would you like to see Disney Skyliner expand to all 4 parks and see the newly planned Brightline Train eventually connect WDW?

Djsfantasi

Well-Known Member
You make it sound simple, but it's far more complicated than you're laying out. First of all, anywhere they put the Skyliner means they can't develop that land in the future without shutting down and rerouting it. That's already a huge hindrance to expanding the system (and why I think it's unlikely they will). I did a rough measurement of the route you suggested (which they likely wouldn't do because it would block future development) and it comes out to nearly 7 miles from the Animal Kingdom to the Magic Kingdom. That would be at least a 40 minute ride, and probably longer since the system has to slow down for every turn station. There are not very many guests who are going to want to ride in a Skyliner vehicle for that long.

It's an ineffective means of transportation if you can't build many direct routes.
So you say…

I chose my routes to follow existing transportation paths. Florida highways specifically. So the impact on future development is minimized.

Let’s assume your estimate of 7 miles and 40 minutes. Versus the current need to wait for 2 buses (20 minutes apiece) plus travel time (much more than 7 miles), comes out to 55 minutes. The Skyliner is more efficient. Plus more enjoyable than traveling in s crowded bus.

I don’t agree with you.
 

UNCgolf

Well-Known Member
So you say…

I chose my routes to follow existing transportation paths. Florida highways specifically. So the impact on future development is minimized.

Let’s assume your estimate of 7 miles and 40 minutes. Versus the current need to wait for 2 buses (20 minutes apiece) plus travel time (much more than 7 miles), comes out to 55 minutes. The Skyliner is more efficient. Plus more enjoyable than traveling in s crowded bus.

I don’t agree with you.

Why would you need to wait for two buses to go from Animal Kingdom to Magic Kingdom?

It's never taken me 55 minutes to get from Animal Kingdom to Magic Kingdom on a bus. It usually only takes 10-15 minutes once you're on the bus. Yes, you might have to wait 20-30 minutes for the bus to actually arrive, but I'd much rather be waiting for a bus (when you can do things like go to the bathroom or really anything else you want) than spend that time stuck in a vehicle where you have no options to do anything, unless you get off at one of the earlier stops. If the choice was between 45 minutes in a Skyliner or 45 minutes in a bus it might be a different calculation, but that's not the comparison (I'd still choose the bus, but that's beside the point -- and if those were the only options I'd probably just drive myself).

Of course some of that comes down to personal preference, but I can't imagine very many people wanting to be in a Skyliner vehicle for that long. It works as something people can take for short 5-10 minute trips. It's not designed to have people in it for longer journeys.
 

Surferboy567

Well-Known Member
Yes, you might have to wait 20-30 minutes for the bus to actually arrive, but I'd much rather be waiting for a bus (when you can do things like go to the bathroom or really anything else you want) than spend that time stuck in a vehicle where you have no options to do anything, unless you get off at one of the earlier stops.
This alone is one of the reasons I really like the idea of the Skyliner. To each their own I guess but rather be riding in a Skyliner then waiting.

I do agree though that the Skyliner is great in short bursts, but maybe their is a way to speed it up for a line to MK or AK?
 

JohnD

Well-Known Member
You’re making assumptions.

From HS, head to Coronado Springs and create a station there. Then, head down to the Blizzard Beach parking lot before turning to end at AK. The Skyliner appearance at BB is thematically consistentvb

The Epcot line can swing behind the WS to the Monorail line and turn along the existing monorail right of way to Magic Kingdom. With a stop at the front entrance.

Now we can get to all parks via Skyliner. We can abandon the Epcot monorail line and save maintenance and operating costs. The monorail is still used for the MK resorts and as an attraction.

IMHO, the Skyliner is a much better means of transportation. It is quick, efficient and enjoyable. Added stations do not slow down your travel, as it is loaded while moving. I find the Monorail cloying. Too stuffy for me. And I bet it’s less efficient than the Skyliner.
WDW already uses the monorail from the MK and the MK resorts to Epcot. Why build a parallel Skyliner route? Second, it’s one thing to travel from Pop to Epcot by Skyliner. Quite another from Pop to MK via Skyliner. Worst case, I would rather be stopped on the monorail between TTC and Epcot than the Skyliner for the same.

As I indicated, If they were to expand the Skyliner to include “access” to MK, at most they would build a line from the Intl Gateway to the front of the park. Transfer to monorail to get to MK. No one in their right mind would build another transportation system between Epcot and MK when you already one.
 

JohnD

Well-Known Member
So you say…

I chose my routes to follow existing transportation paths. Florida highways specifically. So the impact on future development is minimized.

Let’s assume your estimate of 7 miles and 40 minutes. Versus the current need to wait for 2 buses (20 minutes apiece) plus travel time (much more than 7 miles), comes out to 55 minutes. The Skyliner is more efficient. Plus more enjoyable than traveling in s crowded bus.

I don’t agree with you.
I don’t agree with you.
 

doctornick

Well-Known Member
Okay, it's a silly tangent to talk about doing additional Skyliner (or any other new transportation) to MK (or the front of Epcot). The Monorail and ferries are fine. There's no way that Disney would waste any money and time building a Skyliner line to MK - and I say this as someone who really loved the Skyliner addition.

There is an argument to provide for additional transportation that is not buses in other areas. The most obvious being the AKL/DAK/Blizzard Beach/Coronado cluster. Would additional Skyliner there be an answer? Certainly could be but it wouldn't have to be that.

The other area to consider would be the Disney Springs/Saratoga/Typhoon Lagoon/OKW/Port Orleans area perhaps connecting it towards Epcot or DHS. I think that's a lower priority but it would be neat to use something like a streetcar as was mentioned at some point in this thread.
 

Twirlnhurl

Active Member
I am getting caught up with this one, so I am replying to a bunch of different people. Please forgive my late entry in this thread.
The only visual I think the skyliner has an issue with is Carribean Beach. It alters the scale and feel of the resort.
Funny. I actually feel the opposite. Far and away, my favorite portion of the Skyliner route is over Caribbean Beach. I think it adds a great kinetic energy and it also makes the resort feel more cohesive and less spread out. But each to his own!

I think that the next step would be to get a fleet of fully electric and fully autonomous Magic Busses. It would be cool if they could design them with an entrance side and an exit side, and have guests get on and off from continuously moving floors, and the busses never had to come to a stop when loading and unloading.
Buses can certainly have a very high capacity. The urban Bus Rapid Transit systems with platform level boarding, offboard fare collection, and adequate operations can transport as many people over a given distance as all but the highest capacity metro rail systems (the Bogota BRT system carries up to 40,000 people per hour per direction) albeit with much wider right-of-way requirements and higher labor costs if drivers are used.

But a common misconception is that a continuously moving loading system has a higher capacity than a stationary loading system. In fact, it is typically the opposite, outside of a fairly narrow range of conditions.

For a thought experiment, imagine that the capacity of a single theater of the Carousel of Progress is 500 people. If the theater rotates every 5 minutes, the hourly capacity would be 6,000 people per hour. And if the number of people attempting to ride is less than 6,000 people per hour and they arrive at an even pace, the average wait would be 2.5 minutes.

If the theater had twice as many seats, it would have an hourly capacity of 12,000, with the same average wait. And so on.

Eventually, if you keep adding seats, you would run into the problem of not enough doors to get people seated in time. So the limiting factor for capacity of a vehicle that stops to board is door width.

As it turns out, for a continuously loading system like Skyliner or Peoplemover, the limiting factor is also door width. However, when a vehicle is moving, the door width limitation is complicated by the transfer, which generally requires a narrow threshold, so that unsteady riders can right themselves, or at least be warned of the transition to the moving floor.

So no matter how many seats you add inside the cabin, you will eventually run out of door space or will not have a wide enough moving sidewalk.

Because of this, the actual maximum capacity of a continuously moving vehicle is probably somewhere around wice the capacity of Spaceship Earth, maybe around 6,000 people per hour. Once the demand exceeds that number, the average wait would raise from a few seconds to something much higher than 2.5 minutes, the shortest possible average wait of a system that departs every 5 minutes.

But the advantage of stationary loading is theoretically even greater. Carousel of Progress may dispatch every 5 minutes, but some metro systems can dispatch as frequently as every 70 seconds. So the average wait can actually be reduced to something like 35 seconds!

If they were going to do something, I think the most logical would be DHS (heading south) - > turn station -> Blizzard Beach/Winter Summerland. Then have Blizzard Beach act as a hub (like Caribbean Beach) with one line going north to Coronado and one going west to DAK. Could even go all out and put some sort of station among the All Star resorts to go to Blizzard Beach as well.
I created a transportation model of WDW a few years back with a layout like this, and I found that the trip demand generated from the All Star Resorts would be so great that it would overwhelm a monorail system (with a capacity of around 19,000 people per hour per direction) at peak hours! Skyliner has a much lower maximum theoretical capacity. In fact, that is greater than the hourly ride (excluding shows) capacity at DHS!

I'd much rather be waiting for a bus (when you can do things like go to the bathroom or really anything else you want) than spend that time stuck in a vehicle where you have no options to do anything, unless you get off at one of the earlier stops.
As you implied, your preferences are your own. And that is totally fine. But in general, studies show that the vast majority of transit riders have the opposite preference. Time spent waiting for the ride is qualitatively more burdensome than time spent moving, all else equal for most riders.
 

UNCgolf

Well-Known Member
As you implied, your preferences are your own. And that is totally fine. But in general, studies show that the vast majority of transit riders have the opposite preference. Time spent waiting for the ride is qualitatively more burdensome than time spent moving, all else equal for most riders.

All else isn't equal here, though. The Skyliner and a bus are very different forms of transportation with different comfort levels (i.e. some people are going to think the buses are more comfortable and some people are going to think the Skyliner is more comfortable), and the Skyliner is a much slower system.

Also, the time spent waiting isn't a constant. You could have to wait 20 minutes for a bus, but you also might only wait 5 minutes. In that scenario, the bus trip would likely be twice as fast overall as riding the Skyliner.

There are many variables at play, but I still think it's pretty unlikely that most guests would be happy spending 45 minutes riding the Skyliner to get to a destination. Even if the majority of guests would be fully on board, though, I don't see Disney expanding it to that level. I think the system has too many downsides to be used on a mass scale across numerous stops and relatively long distances.
 
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TrainChasers

Well-Known Member
I created a transportation model of WDW a few years back with a layout like this, and I found that the trip demand generated from the All Star Resorts would be so great that it would overwhelm a monorail system (with a capacity of around 19,000 people per hour per direction) at peak hours! Skyliner has a much lower maximum theoretical capacity.
All 3 All-Star Resorts combined have 4,812 rooms. Pop Century and Art of Animation combined have 4,864 rooms.
 

Twirlnhurl

Active Member
All else isn't equal here, though. The Skyliner and a bus are very different forms of transportation with different comfort levels (i.e. some people are going to think the buses are more comfortable and some people are going to think the Skyliner is more comfortable), and the Skyliner is a much slower system.

Also, the time spent waiting isn't a constant. You could have to wait 20 minutes for a bus, but you also might only wait 5 minutes. In that scenario, the bus trip would likely be twice as fast overall as riding the Skyliner.

There are many variables at play, but I still think it's pretty unlikely that most guests would be happy spending 45 minutes riding the Skyliner to get to a destination. Even if the majority of guests would be fully on board, though, I don't see Disney expanding it to that level. I think the system has too many downsides to be used on a mass scale across numerous stops and relatively long distances.
I agree. It's utility is with relatively close destinations like what was actually built. I can imagine a few other individual origin-destination pairs, but I don't see a resort-wide network.
All 3 All-Star Resorts combined have 4,812 rooms. Pop Century and Art of Animation combined have 4,864 rooms.
Right, but for a park to park system fed by Skyliner, the total number of connected rooms adds traffic to central primarily routes, regardless of the location of the origin. So a new suburb on the east side of town will make traffic in the middle of town worse, as long as at least some of the trips generated go through the center.

I am definitely not saying you can't connect Skyliner to these specific resorts, but those resorts would crowd the network of premium transit with comparatively little benefit to the bottom line. A similar number of deluxe or moderate rooms connected by Skyliner would be more profitable, since those markets may be willing to spend more for such an amenity.
 

TrainChasers

Well-Known Member
I am definitely not saying you can't connect Skyliner to these specific resorts, but those resorts would crowd the network of premium transit with comparatively little benefit to the bottom line. A similar number of deluxe or moderate rooms connected by Skyliner would be more profitable, since those markets may be willing to spend more for such an amenity.
The opposote argument could be made.... by adding skyliner to all-stars, you are able to add to the price of the value resorts.
 

Calmdownnow

Well-Known Member
How about feeding the poor people or homeless in exchange for them becoming rickshaw drivers for Disney to transfer guests from park to park. Who wouldn't enjoy such a unique experience of a person peddling their little legs off in the Florida heat whilst you sit there enjoying the luxury of life? ;)
Funny -- I distinctly remember my family taking rickshaw cycle transport from one of the Universal hotels (can't remember if it was Hard Rock or Portofino) to their parks at some point in the distant past. We tipped very high because the two rickshaw teams we used competed to get there first.
 

tpoly88

Active Member
Boats, light rail, monorails... I'm sure there are other options. I just really dislike the Skyliner.

I'm afraid of heights, so I wasn't planning to ever ride it, but my GF really wanted to so we ended up doing it. The height aspect actually didn't bother me at all (probably because it's completely enclosed) but I just didn't enjoy it; it was slow and annoying. I wouldn't stay at any of the resorts with it because they expect you to use it over other types of transportation.
im personally not a fan of it as it is either going super slow or it stops all the time. Taking that when its hot and it stops, that is not fun. i timed it one day to see the difference between taking the boat to HS from Epcot or the Skyliner, the boat believe it or not even with the stops is faster. The skyliner is a great concept and much cheaper than any other type of transport to move that many people and I could see this from AKL to AK and the route taking you over the Serengeti, watching all the animals as you go, that would be neat. still the Monorail is the best but the cost to build and run it makes it likely there will never be more track added.
 

Djsfantasi

Well-Known Member
Yeah, this is what people are forgetting. People come to Disney from all over (with a high percentage coming from American suburbs). Public transit with tons of options works for people who have been trained to use that kind of stuff. But let's face it, the average middle class American who would go to a theme park like Disney has a very suburban mentality, and doesn't know how to be jostled around a public transit system like they do in NYC, Europe, or Asia. And yes, to make it work efficiently and be an advantage of cars, people need to be efficient and not act like they're on vacation.

America is very much a driving country. People feel more comfortable in cars. The Magic Busses and the school bus might be their main exposure to public transportation. Add in the fact that many of the non-Americans are from South American tour groups and don't speak English. Does anyone really think that convoluted systems are going to work?

The best, most cost effective investment Disney could make to help with transit is to invest in the Magic Busses and improve parking logistics. Its kind of at the point that even if you stay on site, you'll have a better time if you just drive to all of the parks.
Not all… I come from Boston, home if the nations first subway station. There is the Red, Green, Blue and Silver lines.

I hate driving into Boston and it’s cowpath streets. So I take the T whenever possible. Development has centered around T stations so you pretty much can go anywhere on the subway. They even added a new line when the seaport neighborhood grew.
 

Djsfantasi

Well-Known Member
All else isn't equal here, though. The Skyliner and a bus are very different forms of transportation with different comfort levels (i.e. some people are going to think the buses are more comfortable and some people are going to think the Skyliner is more comfortable), and the Skyliner is a much slower system.

Also, the time spent waiting isn't a constant. You could have to wait 20 minutes for a bus, but you also might only wait 5 minutes. In that scenario, the bus trip would likely be twice as fast overall as riding the Skyliner.

There are many variables at play, but I still think it's pretty unlikely that most guests would be happy spending 45 minutes riding the Skyliner to get to a destination. Even if the majority of guests would be fully on board, though, I don't see Disney expanding it to that level. I think the system has too many downsides to be used on a mass scale across numerous stops and relatively long distances.
I have never experienced a 45 minute ride on the Skyliner.

My experience has been a maximum wait of 5 minutes to board and 10 minutes to HS and 15 minutes to EPCOT. That is about the time spent waiting for a bus but I’m at the park. I feel that Skyliner is much faster.

Plus, the views are much more engaging from the sky as opposed to the highway views from a bus.

This is from Art of Animation and includes transfer time.

So that’s my preference. Skyliner access is a factor in my choice of resorts.

But to each his/her own…
 

UNCgolf

Well-Known Member
I have never experienced a 45 minute ride on the Skyliner.

My experience has been a maximum wait of 5 minutes to board and 10 minutes to HS and 15 minutes to EPCOT. That is about the time spent waiting for a bus but I’m at the park. I feel that Skyliner is much faster.

Plus, the views are much more engaging from the sky as opposed to the highway views from a bus.

This is from Art of Animation and includes transfer time.

So that’s my preference. Skyliner access is a factor in my choice of resorts.

But to each his/her own…

Of course you haven't -- there aren't any right now.

We were discussing what would happen if they tried to expand it across the entire resort, which would result in a lot of long Skyliner trips. It's one of the many reasons they aren't going to do it. It's a from of transportation that works for short trips around a central location; it's not efficient for longer trips that require numerous turn stations.

Skyliner access is actually a factor in my choice of resorts too -- I wouldn't stay at any of the Skyliner resorts (unless you count Boardwalk Inn and Beach/Yacht Club as Skyliner resorts; I'd still stay there) because they expect you to use it and have drastically cut back on other transportation options to DHS/Epcot.
 
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Djsfantasi

Well-Known Member
Of course you haven't -- there aren't any right now.

We were discussing what would happen if they tried to expand it across the entire resort, which would result in a lot of long Skyliner trips. It's one of the many reasons they aren't going to do it. It's a from of transportation that works for short trips around a central location; it's not efficient for longer trips that require numerous turn stations.

Skyliner access is actually a factor in my choice of resorts too -- I wouldn't stay at any of the Skyliner resorts because they expect you to use it and have drastically cut back on other transportation options to DHS/Epcot.
Who said right now? I’ve been riding the Skyliner since it opened. Your argument is misguided.

Given your set views of the Skyliner, I am not trying to dissuade you. But for the others who are learning about the Skyliner, your assumptions may be flawed.

There are design constraints for any expansion. I can see that the original design have taken these into effect.
  • Minimize turn stations
  • Expansion lines could operate at a different speed
  • Following existing transportation routes is preferred
  • Routes through large undeveloped areas should be avoided.
  • Short routes to a central hub are preferred to a long route with multiple stations
You assume a worst case scenario. I can see a solution that results in a 20 minute trip from anywhere on property to your destination. Which is a 10 minute differential trip, given that the wait for buses or boats is 20 minutes or more.
 
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