Wish (Walt Disney Animation - November 2023)

Miss Rori

Well-Known Member
I do wonder whether it is the division over whether Magnifico or Asha were ultimately being more reasonable is part of the reason the film has sparked a particularly strong reaction. The film very strongly leans one way, but I think the fact that other people see a lot more ambiguity around the central conflict or flat out take the opposite view from the filmmakers makes the resolution seem unfair and thus irritating to an extent you don't find in many films.
"You can't have heroes and villains when the wrong side is making the best sense." - from Roger Ebert's review of I Am Sam. If Veerasunthorn, Buck, and company had truly made it clear that people in Rosas were suffering without their wishes, that life there was only "just good enough" rather than peaceful, tolerant, thriving, and creative, it could have made all the difference in the world. As it is Rosas looks like as close to actual utopia to most viewers as could be imagined, so what if a few wishes don't get granted? It's hard not to be jealous and look at Asha as an ungrateful, ditzy brat whom the story gives all the advantages to - i.e., why did Star come to her?

I think another reason a lot of people didn't enjoy the film can be found in these discussions. You'll hardly if ever see a review or comment about the film where the viewer brings up a moment that was touching, or a relationship that was moving....because, from all I've seen of the film, the characters don't have actual relationships with each other. Some viewers complain that the movie is virtually all expository dialogue and lyrics; the characters don't seem to spend time doing anything besides explaining things like "I am your friend" and "This is how the wishes work", making "funny" quips, and moving from plot point to plot point. You have to read the tie-in books to know what Sakina's wish was, Sabino composing and singing a song after getting his wish back was animated but cut, Amaya stops loving her husband in the course of a day despite presumably knowing what kind of a man he was for years, the townspeople think Asha is their enemy up until Magnifico threatens them, Simon is instantly forgiven when Magnifico isn't - even though, technically, both were brainwashed after doing what they thought was in their best interests if not those of others. Since there's no romance, no friendship, no playtime, no enmity...there's nothing to latch onto. We don't know anything of Magnifico or Asha's relationships to their deceased loved ones beyond some generic homilies. Sabino deserves his wish granted because...he is 100 years old and the heroine's relative. That's it. Has he ever held a meaningful job? Is he loved by the community?

Like, there's nothing like Anna going to the door each day to ask Elsa if she wants to play, or Belle assuring her father (the joke of the town) that she believes in his work, or Sebastian trying to give Ariel tips on wooing Eric, or Snow White praying that Grumpy will come to like her, or all the time spent between Simba and Mufasa. And that makes such a difference.
 

Miss Rori

Well-Known Member
This film promoted and styled itself as a celebration of Disney's legacy. Aside from the implication that you should be celebrating your hundreth anniversary with something worthy of your amazing legacy (which simueltaneously gives the whole movie a veneer of arrogance and angers people because it didn't live up to it), it also constantly insisted people think of superior movies while watching it. I think that's where a lot of the virtol is coming from.
Yes. The filmmakers and studio made a huge promise with this movie, and didn't come close to keeping it. It's a weird parallel with the inability to come up with a reason Sabino deserves to have his wish granted ahead of someone else's - he's 100 years old and the heroine's grandfather (and she says he's good!) is all the movie has to offer.

It was a horrible mistake to reveal so soon all the interesting could-have-beens for the film like "Starboy" and Evil!Amaya, because a lot of people clearly would have loved to see those realized! Combine that with how poorly the film made its case against Magnifico, to the point that the advertising failed to make things clear, and well...
 

BrianLo

Well-Known Member
The Hunchback of Notre Dame was the 5th highest-grossing film worldwide of 1996. I know it was seen as a disappointment following the massive successes of Aladdin and The Lion King (both of which were the highest grossing films worldwide in the years they came out) but I don't get this revisionism among the fandom that Hunchback is one of Disney's biggest flops. It made more worldwide than every Disney animated movie from the 70s and 80s (including The Little Mermaid), other Disney Renaissance movies like Hercules and Mulan, well regarded 2000s Disney movies like the Emperor's New Groove, Lilo and Stitch and The Princess and the Frog, and every Disney animated movie since the pandemic.

Sorry. I should clarify that I didn't mean to conflate the two in their releases. I just meant the long term prospects are how Disney currently treats Hunchback. As a D-list Franchise. Whether Hunchback should be treated as such is another matter entirely. Versus something like Brave, that did worse than Hunchback, but I'd qualify is now being treated as a C-lister. Thanks in part to the Princess line.

I like the unique design of the castle.

While I thought Wish was mediocre, I don't think it deserves the scorn and hatred its gotten from so many. A youtube search of the film will lead you to dozens of videos bashing the film and acting like it's the ultimate crime against humanity. Wish could have and should have been better, but I feel there is this bandwagon effect where everyone is eager to pile on in bashing the film simply because it's the popular thing to do.

Agreed, its biggest failing is that it's innocuous. A movie built on tropes instead of the heart of what people liked about the early renaissance films. While bland, it's also not an atrocious film.
 

WorldExplorer

Well-Known Member
I think another reason a lot of people didn't enjoy the film can be found in these discussions. You'll hardly if ever see a review or comment about the film where the viewer brings up a moment that was touching, or a relationship that was moving....because, from all I've seen of the film, the characters don't have actual relationships with each other. Some viewers complain that the movie is virtually all expository dialogue and lyrics; the characters don't seem to spend time doing anything besides explaining things like "I am your friend" and "This is how the wishes work", making "funny" quips, and moving from plot point to plot point. You have to read the tie-in books to know what Sakina's wish was, Sabino composing and singing a song after getting his wish back was animated but cut, Amaya stops loving her husband in the course of a day despite presumably knowing what kind of a man he was for years, the townspeople think Asha is their enemy up until Magnifico threatens them, Simon is instantly forgiven when Magnifico isn't - even though, technically, both were brainwashed after doing what they thought was in their best interests if not those of others. Since there's no romance, no friendship, no playtime, no enmity...there's nothing to latch onto. We don't know anything of Magnifico or Asha's relationships to their deceased loved ones beyond some generic homilies. Sabino deserves his wish granted because...he is 100 years old and the heroine's relative. That's it. Has he ever held a meaningful job? Is he loved by the community?

Like, there's nothing like Anna going to the door each day to ask Elsa if she wants to play, or Belle assuring her father (the joke of the town) that she believes in his work, or Sebastian trying to give Ariel tips on wooing Eric, or Snow White praying that Grumpy will come to like her, or all the time spent between Simba and Mufasa. And that makes such a difference.

The weird thing about Wish is that a huge issue for it is being stuffed with way too many characters, but most of them aren't there for any kind of storytelling reason.

- All of Asha's friends are there to be a reference to the seven dwarfs. Maybe at one point they planned for just one and they had a decent sized role, but in the final film the screentime is sliced up between seven, and all of them have their (thin) personalities determined by "must be analogous to a dwarf".

- Valentino is there because a cutesy sidekick is on the checklist. What little character he may have is determined by "funny".

- Sabino is there to be a metaphor for Walt Disney/the company. That doesn't necessarily mean he needs to be boring (there are other characters that represent Walt that aren't), but that's what they end up with here.

- Star is a marketing gimmick. They had a character with a personality and solid relationship in his place, but cut him for it.

- I know I'm getting into speculation here, but I will bet absolutely anything that Asha only has a mom because people make comments about Disney characters not having moms. She's completely pointless even by Wish standards.

So you're left with Asha, Magnifico, and Amaya (maybe I'm wrong and also the mom) as characters organically created for the plot. Amaya had her character (and so relationships) changed late in production, and Asha definitely didn't benefit from having a major character (Starboy) changed on her.

No one has any authentic feeling relationships or character details because most of them are there out of obligation or to bring to mind something else, not there to be characters or aid the story. Despite that, there are so darned many of them, that whatever little slivers of personality are there don't have any time to be featured.

(And I hate criticizing Asha's friends' personalities because it makes it sound like criticizing the dwarfs, but that's really the difference right there; we spent a TON of time with the dwarfs and so got to know them and how they interacted, and they developed an actual relationship with Snow White that's more unique than "yeah they seem friendly". They're also funnier and better animated, but that goes without saying. )

making "funny" quips,

Their Grumpy analogue being quippy and smug is...so modern Disney. That's their Negative Character cookie cutter.
 
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Miss Rori

Well-Known Member
- Valentino is there because a cutesy sidekick is on the checklist. What little character he may have is determined by "funny".
And as soon as they went with the plushy concept for Star, he wasn't needed since Star is so cutesy as is.
- Sabino is there to be a metaphor for Walt Disney/the company. That doesn't necessarily mean he needs to be boring (there are other characters that represent Walt that aren't), but that's what they end up with here.
I think they meant Asha as the Walt analogue from some comments by the filmmakers (she's an artist/animator, etc.). In the stage where the characters were living in exile in the woods, Sabino was the character who encouraged Asha to try and fight Magnifico's rule so she and others wouldn't know the disappointment he did of not seeing their dreams realized (the exiles were tying their wishes to the wishing tree instead and hoping for the stars' blessing), as he was not only old but in effect terminally ill; he died soon after their big conversation. I would not be surprised if this was changed because it was too similar to Moana and her grandmother's dynamic.
So you're left with Asha, Magnifico, and Amaya (maybe I'm wrong and also the mom) as characters organically created for the plot. Amaya had her character (and so relationships) changed late in production, and Asha definitely didn't benefit from having a major character (Starboy) changed on her.
We know now that Dahlia was originally going to be the character who unconditionally loved Magnifico until he had an argument with her, and that there was yet another character (Flazino) who got the apprentice job and ended up imprisoned when he realized Magnifico's true colors. Amaya was taking up the slack of two other characters when she was changed.
No one has any authentic feeling relationships or character details because most of them are there out of obligation or to bring to mind something else, not there to be characters or aid the story.
I think about how much I liked Wonka and how that movie has a ton of characters (seven major and minor antagonists, five friends for the hero, a polite adversary in the Oompa-Loompa, and some tertiary characters who serve minor plot functions/comedy relief) but everybody manages to make an impression and there are some interesting relationships drawn up, because the filmmakers took time to figure out how they'd interact with each other and what each could bring to the story. The film is about 20 minutes longer than Wish, to be fair, but still, it's pretty impressive how much it accomplishes in that regard.
 

Ghost93

Well-Known Member
Sorry. I should clarify that I didn't mean to conflate the two in their releases. I just meant the long term prospects are how Disney currently treats Hunchback. As a D-list Franchise. Whether Hunchback should be treated as such is another matter entirely. Versus something like Brave, that did worse than Hunchback, but I'd qualify is now being treated as a C-lister. Thanks in part to the Princess line.
I think it's cause Hunchback — while a good movie — doesn't work as a "franchise." There is nothing in the movie that is well suited for a ride and it's dark and heavy themes make it awkward to sell toys (beyond Esmeralda dolls). Frollo is a great villain, but he's not a great DISNEY villain as he's very grounded in reality. He reminds you of corrupt politicians and church officials — not someone you want to see at Disney-villain themed events at the parks. While I think he's a compelling character, I always find him out of place when he pops up in Fanastmic, surrounded by a bunch of sorcerers.

And while most audiences like Quasimodo and feel sorry for him, they don't wan't to dress up as him. Quasimodo is ugly and has a terrible life and no one wants to "be him" for Halloween in the way they might want to be one of the Disney Princesses or even male Disney characters like Aladdin or Hercules. Some people might want to dress up as Esmeralda, but that's a cultural appropriation landmine in the same way that dressing up as Pocahontas is.

Hunchback's best asset in terms of marketability comes from its Phantom of the Opera/Les Miserables eqsue soundtrack, which is why the IP has mostly been exploited in stage shows — such as the one at MGM studios, the 1999 German production and the regional American productions. Like Newsies, its appeal is more around theater kids than the average Disney fan.
 

Heppenheimer

Well-Known Member
I think it's cause Hunchback — while a good movie — doesn't work as a "franchise." There is nothing in the movie that is well suited for a ride and it's dark and heavy themes make it awkward to sell toys (beyond Esmeralda dolls). Frollo is a great villain, but he's not a great DISNEY villain as he's very grounded in reality. He reminds you of corrupt politicians and church officials — not someone you want to see at Disney-villain themed events at the parks. While I think he's a compelling character, I always find him out of place when he pops up in Fanastmic, surrounded by a bunch of sorcerers.

And while most audiences like Quasimodo and feel sorry for him, they don't wan't to dress up as him. Quasimodo is ugly and has a terrible life and no one wants to "be him" for Halloween in the way they might want to be one of the Disney Princesses or even male Disney characters like Aladdin or Hercules. Some people might want to dress up as Esmeralda, but that's a cultural appropriation landmine in the same way that dressing up as Pocahontas is.

Hunchback's best asset in terms of marketability comes from its Phantom of the Opera/Les Miserables eqsue soundtrack, which is why the IP has mostly been exploited in stage shows — such as the one at MGM studios, the 1999 German production and the regional American productions. Like Newsies, its appeal is more around theater kids than the average Disney fan.
I liked Hunchback and thought it was well done, but I think I may have rewatched it all but once since I originally saw it on its theatrical release. Its just not a fun movie.
 

MarvelCharacterNerd

Well-Known Member
I think they meant Asha as the Walt analogue from some comments by the filmmakers (she's an artist/animator, etc.).
But he's the old guy turning 100
playing the company song.
So yeah, he reps the company.

But everything in the movie is so on the nose, that yeah, animator Asha counts, too.
 

Miss Rori

Well-Known Member
But he's the old guy turning 100
playing the company song.
So yeah, he reps the company.

But everything in the movie is so on the nose, that yeah, animator Asha counts, too.
I think that also plays into another thing that annoyed critics about the film: we're supposed to see Asha and Sabino = Walt Disney and the company as a whole, but everybody who knows enough about the guy's history and how the company operates (especially in the Iger era) knows that they're really Magnifico - picking on the artists, locking up IP, pouring lots of sentiment over everything so people don't notice and even eat it up.
 

TsWade2

Well-Known Member
A couple weeks ago, Disneyland Paris did a annual pass private night party called Treasure Night. They did a show called Disney Classics Celebration. It includes Aladdin, Beauty and the Beast, Mulan, The Lion King, Hercules, Encanto, and of course...........Wish. See for yourself:
 

Miss Rori

Well-Known Member
I do wonder whether it is the division over whether Magnifico or Asha were ultimately being more reasonable is part of the reason the film has sparked a particularly strong reaction. The film very strongly leans one way, but I think the fact that other people see a lot more ambiguity around the central conflict or flat out take the opposite view from the filmmakers makes the resolution seem unfair and thus irritating to an extent you don't find in many films.
Inevitably the comedy nitpicking video series CinemaSins got around to this movie a few days back, and they actually pointed out a legit flaw in Asha's initial suggestion of Magnifico just returning the wishes he won't grant to the people, so they could realize them on their own, wouldn't work: those people would end up resentful of those whose wishes might get granted. Which raises the question of how many of Rosas' people will really be willing to work for their wishes when everybody gets them back at the end, given Asha now has the magic wand...uh-oh! ;)

Regarding the resolution seeming unfair, I think a big part of it is that Magnifico is only a jerk before he uses the Forbidden Book; there's no indication that he ever truly hurt anything more than people's feelings until that point. He didn't even know he could use the wishes as a source of power, and he's a magical scholar! But even though everything's set up for a redemption arc he doesn't get a chance to redeem himself or be saved once he uses the book; everybody gives up on purifying him of the black magic because the black magic book says it's impossible. But if everybody just wishing on their star-selves and singing is more powerful than forbidden extra-powerful magic, who's to say it couldn't have worked to purify him? Or, as someone suggested at another forum - what if after he was imprisoned in the mirror Amaya saved him with True Love's Kiss, given the movie was out for all the "common" Disney tropes anyway?
 
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FettFan

Well-Known Member
The biggest sin that ‘Wish’ committed was that it was developed as a celebration of the Walt Disney Company’s centennial…. Yet it was not a starring vehicle for Mickey.

I only hope that we never lose sight of one thing – that it all started with a mouse.”


I mean, we should have gotten crossovers on an epic scale like a theatrical adaptation of Fantasmic.

Maybe even have Mickey meeting Dreamfinder and Figment.
 

Miss Rori

Well-Known Member
I've just returned from the Chicago Comic and Entertainment Expo (C2E2) convention. There was a lot of Disney cosplay on the floor, including a lot of deeper cuts (Princess Kida, Prince John, Esmeralda, etc.) but I didn't see anyone cosplaying a character from Wish. (ShopDisney did bring out child costumes for Asha and Dahlia, and even then, no kid was dressed as them.) I find that very telling regarding the film's long-term prospects, unfortunately. 2022 and '23 saw lots of Encanto cosplay and there were still some Mirabels and Isabellas on the floor here.
 
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WorldExplorer

Well-Known Member
Disney World is the same. In a sea of tiny princesses (tons of Belles, Ariels, Snow Whites, and Cinderellas especially), you occasionally see Ashas but it's a very rare sight. Mirabel and Isabella are significantly more common still.

Never saw a single child dress like Dahlia.

It will be very interesting to see the Halloween parties; you see a ton of groups dress as the dwarfs since it's good for big groups. I wonder if anyone will go for Asha's friends instead.
 

Heppenheimer

Well-Known Member
I've just returned from the Chicago Comic and Entertainment Expo (C2E2) convention. There was a lot of Disney cosplay on the floor, including a lot of deeper cuts (Princess Kida, Prince John, Esmeralda, etc.) but I didn't see anyone cosplaying a character from Wish. (ShopDisney did bring out child costumes for Asha and Dahlia, and even then, no kid was dressed as them.) I find that very telling regarding the film's long-term prospects, unfortunately. 2022 and '23 saw lots of Encanto cosplay and there were still some Mirabels and Isabellas on the floor here.
Unfortunately, Disney will probably come to this conclusion: "Hmm, they don't like new characters. They want more sequels!"
 

Miss Rori

Well-Known Member
Disney World is the same. In a sea of tiny princesses (tons of Belles, Ariels, Snow Whites, and Cinderellas especially), you occasionally see Ashas but it's a very rare sight. Mirabel and Isabella are significantly more common still.
Lots of those four in particular (especially Belle - Richard White, Gaston's voice actor, was a guest at the show, and Paige O'Hara was set to appear before falling ill - they actually got Linda Larkin [Jasmine's speaking voice] to take over her autograph sessions at least) among the cosplayers, but there were also several Rapunzels and Auroras, and at least one Tiana, and or course Anna and Elsa remain popular. Heck, there were a bunch of women cosplaying Anastasia from the Don Bluth film, and some jokes about how technically she qualifies as a Disney Princess thanks to the Fox buyout! Surprisingly no Moanas this year (she was very popular from 2017-22) but it might just be a matter of time.
Never saw a single child dress like Dahlia.

It will be very interesting to see the Halloween parties; you see a ton of groups dress as the dwarfs since it's good for big groups. I wonder if anyone will go for Asha's friends instead.
I don't do the Halloween party scene, but that's a good point; a lot of cosplayers like duo/group outfits - this year I saw a lot of those for Super Mario Bros. (which meant a comparable number of princess outfits to the Disney ones!), Barbie, Dune, Ghostbusters, the Spider-Verse movies (which rivaled Batman characters in general as the most popular superhero-related characters), Doctor Who (there were multiple 15th Doctors!), Hazbin Hotel, and a resurgence in Star Wars-related cosplays after 2023 was a bit lean. And most of the Seven Teens costumes seem relatively simple for an interested cosplayer (or their parent ;) ) to create from scratch while being screen-accurate, compared to the heavy work it takes for, say, Te Fiti or Prince John or Princess Kida.

But if no one was doing Asha or Magnifico - who apparently didn't excite all those cosplayers supposedly clamoring for a new "classic" Disney villain, given there were plenty of Maleficents, Cruellas, and Ursulas on the floor here - who was going to do Bazeema or Dahlia?

And that's what makes me doubtful that the movie is finding its devoted audience now, or that it ever will. That no one wants to take the trouble to cosplay these characters suggests that they and the movie weren't sufficiently exciting and moving to inspire them; that no one is latching on to anything in the characters - not their personalities, not even a cool "look".
 

Miss Rori

Well-Known Member
Have the film on Disney+ and I have to ask...how exactly are the wishes trapped in the tower? The arched windows do not appear to have glass in them and they clearly react and move to the presence of Asha (during "At All Costs") and Star's arrival, and yet they don't just...leave and return to the owners? Are they happy to be in the tower? Why do they float out in the climax when the shutters are opened?

(Also it's hilarious that just about everybody in Rosas is asleep/indoors when Asha sings "This Wish" and yet they're all conveniently awake/outside just in time and position to see Star glow for about a minute. Obviously her caterwauling all over town woke everybody up.)
 

LittleBuford

Well-Known Member
Have the film on Disney+ and I have to ask...how exactly are the wishes trapped in the tower? The arched windows do not appear to have glass in them and they clearly react and move to the presence of Asha (during "At All Costs") and Star's arrival, and yet they don't just...leave and return to the owners? Are they happy to be in the tower? Why do they float out in the climax when the shutters are opened?

(Also it's hilarious that just about everybody in Rosas is asleep/indoors when Asha sings "This Wish" and yet they're all conveniently awake/outside just in time and position to see Star glow for about a minute. Obviously her caterwauling all over town woke everybody up.)
This is a level of criticism up there with “Why didn’t Ariel just write Eric a letter explaining her predicament?” Any Disney film would buckle under this kind of scrutiny. Yes, there is much in Wish that one might criticise, but it seems a bit unreasonable to demand such watertight logic of what is, at the end of the day, a fairytale.
 

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