Volcano Hotel

Kman101

Well-Known Member
Universal and MGM were built a long time ago ;) of course that was different and one wanted to be ahead of the other. And now, Disney and Universal often have imagineers bounce between the two. Of course concepts are taken and revamped and are similar. It's still not the competition some want it to be.
 

Kman101

Well-Known Member
It seems like you guys have no idea how corporations work. Share Holders for sure notice things like these and look at those numbers. Why would Disney ever want to risk losing customers to their biggest rival? Do you think the people at Uni want more money?? I don't know them personally but I bet they do! When is #2 ever content with being #2? Not long because you quickly slip to #3 if so.

No, it seems like you don't. Neither is losing customers to the other, not to where it affects them. What argument are you even trying to make?
 

HitOfDisney

New Member
No, it seems like you don't. Neither is losing customers to the other, not to where it affects them. What argument are you even trying to make?


One example would be the success of Harry Potter, you don't think they had a meeting on how to replicate or do something better as a result?

What it seems like is you're trying to go to the extreme. That if Disney responds to Uni for competition that everything they do has to be in the name of said competition. I am sure the answer lies somewhere in the middle but I'm also pretty sure that staying above ALL COMPETITION is in the bylaws of being an Imagineer.

What do you mean they aren't losing customers to the other? That is far from real. I would say most Tourist pick either or. Most people don't go for a week and go to Disney and Uni. I know a LOT of people do but I'd say MOST people don't. They even have to compete with other entertainment venues not just theme parks.

Hell I just read an article the other day talking about the competition between A Bugs life and Antz. If they compete in movies you think they just don't care about the parks?
 

kthomas105

Well-Known Member
So what was this in response to? Volcano Bay? One ride compared to a new water park? Not a good response if that is true.
This is just my opinion but Typhoon Lagoon had not seen a new attraction since 2005, I think Universal wanted to compete with Disney in the water park market and saw that Disney wasn't making strides to update their water parks. Once Universal took over the WetnWild site in Orlando this gave them the perfect opportunity. I don't think you can directly link the addition of Miss Adventure Falls to Volcano bay but Disney's experimentation with queue-less water slides is definitely in response to the fact that Volcano Bay will have queue-less attractions and the fact that guest will not have to carry their own tubes to the top of the slide.
 

Biff215

Well-Known Member
So what was this in response to? Volcano Bay? One ride compared to a new water park? Not a good response if that is true.
Agreed it's not a good response, but do you honestly think it's a coincidence that they opened a new TL attraction this year? And that they're testing virtual queues at BB similar to what VB will offer?

It seems like you feel the Disney brand is threatened by the idea that they may have reacted to competition in the past. I don't see this as a bad thing at all, it's what I expect and hope that they would do, especially when they occasionally beat them to the punch.
 

seascape

Well-Known Member
Nothing Universal does hurts WDW and nothing WDW does hurts Universal. They are both growing and building. This will continue for many years to come. However, Universal will not pass WDW in attendance with the land they own. The will top off at 4 parks, 2 shopping areas and a water park. Max attendance will be 60 million. WDW has 4 parks already, 2 water parks and Disney Springs which is huge. WDW also has lots of room to expand their 4 parks and still build 2 or 3 more. As for rooms on propery Universal will max out at betweem 15,000 and 20,000. Counting the Disney Spring hotels and Dolphin and Swann along with the Disney owned hotels and DVC, there are currently over 30,000 rooms on property and they will be adding thousands more probably topping out at more than 50,000. Adding all the other hotel and timeshare rooms, Orlando can support both companies, a China owned SeaWorld along with a new Cedar Fair and Six Flags parks. The market is big enough for everyone. Also given the prices Universal and Disney charge there needs to be more choices for the average citizen of the Orlando market and tourists that would like something other than Universal and WDW. Afterall very few people can afford doing both on the same trip.
 

andysol

Well-Known Member
Nothing Universal does hurts WDW and nothing WDW does hurts Universal. They are both growing and building. This will continue for many years to come. However, Universal will not pass WDW in attendance with the land they own. The will top off at 4 parks, 2 shopping areas and a water park. Max attendance will be 60 million. WDW has 4 parks already, 2 water parks and Disney Springs which is huge. WDW also has lots of room to expand their 4 parks and still build 2 or 3 more. As for rooms on propery Universal will max out at betweem 15,000 and 20,000. Counting the Disney Spring hotels and Dolphin and Swann along with the Disney owned hotels and DVC, there are currently over 30,000 rooms on property and they will be adding thousands more probably topping out at more than 50,000. Adding all the other hotel and timeshare rooms, Orlando can support both companies, a China owned SeaWorld along with a new Cedar Fair and Six Flags parks. The market is big enough for everyone. Also given the prices Universal and Disney charge there needs to be more choices for the average citizen of the Orlando market and tourists that would like something other than Universal and WDW. Afterall very few people can afford doing both on the same trip.

You're thinking some of us are looking at it as a competition as if one wins and the other loses. And If WDW responds, it's a negative- as if they didn't respond that they'd somehow lose.
No. They respond because they capitalize.

Take miss adventure. Volcano bay is getting all the buzz. Is it going to steal attendance from TL or BB? No. They'll bring an influx of visitors to Orlando. But by adding Miss Adventure Falls they can capitalize on the VB buzz and gain some for themselves- if nothing else as a reminder that WDW has a top notch water park. VB is good for Orlando. So is Harry Potter. So is Star Wars. Both WDW and Uni benefit from all those expansions- as Their attendance and prices reflect. But if either park sits idle, they go to back of mind instead of brought back into the mix- hence the responses.

You can look to Universal as a key contributor that prodded WDW into the unprecedented spending that is going on right now. Because if Universal wasn't extremely successful right now, it would be bad for Orlando, and subsequently Disney, as a whole.
 

HitOfDisney

New Member
I don't think some of us are thinking of competition in the same way.

Yea we for sure aren't. Every theme park is at competition. I bet even the Disney Parks compete among themselves but they for sure are trying to take money away from Universal. They simply want to take it because they can and because if they don't continue to expand and innovate and Uni continues to grow the gap will shrink. This is basic economics.
 

HauntedPirate

Park nostalgist
Premium Member
Nothing Universal does hurts WDW and nothing WDW does hurts Universal. They are both growing and building. This will continue for many years to come. However, Universal will not pass WDW in attendance with the land they own. The will top off at 4 parks, 2 shopping areas and a water park. Max attendance will be 60 million. WDW has 4 parks already, 2 water parks and Disney Springs which is huge. WDW also has lots of room to expand their 4 parks and still build 2 or 3 more. As for rooms on propery Universal will max out at betweem 15,000 and 20,000. Counting the Disney Spring hotels and Dolphin and Swann along with the Disney owned hotels and DVC, there are currently over 30,000 rooms on property and they will be adding thousands more probably topping out at more than 50,000. Adding all the other hotel and timeshare rooms, Orlando can support both companies, a China owned SeaWorld along with a new Cedar Fair and Six Flags parks. The market is big enough for everyone. Also given the prices Universal and Disney charge there needs to be more choices for the average citizen of the Orlando market and tourists that would like something other than Universal and WDW. Afterall very few people can afford doing both on the same trip.

Again with this hogwash? I mean, with regards to WDW - 20k more hotel rooms? Build 2 or 3 more theme parks??? Where in the blue blazes do you think they are going to put all of that? There isn't enough suitable land to do even a third of that, according to the maps I've seen, and even expanding to the marginally suitable land it would likely be so massively expensive to develop that the TWDC bean counters wouldn't touch it with a 10-meter cattle prod.

Perhaps you should spend some time researching and learning about WDW and Universal instead of spouting off this nonsense over and over.
 

Bairstow

Well-Known Member
Nothing Universal does hurts WDW and nothing WDW does hurts Universal. They are both growing and building. This will continue for many years to come. However, Universal will not pass WDW in attendance with the land they own. The will top off at 4 parks, 2 shopping areas and a water park. Max attendance will be 60 million. WDW has 4 parks already, 2 water parks and Disney Springs which is huge. WDW also has lots of room to expand their 4 parks and still build 2 or 3 more. As for rooms on propery Universal will max out at betweem 15,000 and 20,000. Counting the Disney Spring hotels and Dolphin and Swann along with the Disney owned hotels and DVC, there are currently over 30,000 rooms on property and they will be adding thousands more probably topping out at more than 50,000. Adding all the other hotel and timeshare rooms, Orlando can support both companies, a China owned SeaWorld along with a new Cedar Fair and Six Flags parks. The market is big enough for everyone. Also given the prices Universal and Disney charge there needs to be more choices for the average citizen of the Orlando market and tourists that would like something other than Universal and WDW. Afterall very few people can afford doing both on the same trip.

I think the situation used to be that Disney and Universal were in a semi-mutually beneficial relationship. That is, Disney has, for decades, provided a good enough reason for families to book a 4-7 day vacation in the Orlando area. Universal, and to a lesser extent, Sea World, have served to offer an attractive theme park alternative for 1 or 2 days of a mostly-Disney 5 day Orlando stay, especially for families who had already seen all 4 of Disney's main park offerings. This was especially true during the Great Recession, where Disney essentially froze their building altogether while Universal spent millions on the two Harry Potter expansions. This resulted in a massive increase in Islands of Adventure's attendance (and later Universal Studios') but also a nearly-identical increase in attendance at Disney's parks that were offering nothing new, suggesting that Disney was piggybacking off of Universal's efforts. After all, the two Universal parks are hardly enough to justify a family spending a full 4-7 days to see, especially when you factor in the cost of airfare. The model, as before, would be that a family would be coming to Orlando in order to see the Universal parks, but still would be spending a majority of their time, and quite possibly their resort stay, with Disney. People sometimes ask- why didn't Disney build anything during the late-2000s to justify families making return trips to Orlando? Because Universal was doing it for them.

Now, everything has changed, because Universal's waterpark changes the entire paradigm. Now, Universal will have enough park and waterpark offerings to constitute an entire 4-day stay, or at least enough days of a vacation to justify families using their on-site resorts, cutting Disney out of the picture altogether. This is why, more than ever, Disney is going to be motivated to not just match Universal's offerings, but diffuse to some extent the allure of their attractions. If Disney and Universal were not true competitors before, they're about to become such.
 

HitOfDisney

New Member
I think the situation used to be that Disney and Universal were in a semi-mutually beneficial relationship. That is, Disney has, for decades, provided a good enough reason for families to book a 4-7 day vacation in the Orlando area. Universal, and to a lesser extent, Sea World, have served to offer an attractive theme park alternative for 1 or 2 days of a mostly-Disney 5 day Orlando stay, especially for families who had already seen all 4 of Disney's main park offerings. This was especially true during the Great Recession, where Disney essentially froze their building altogether while Universal spent millions on the two Harry Potter expansions. This resulted in a massive increase in Islands of Adventure's attendance (and later Universal Studios') but also a nearly-identical increase in attendance at Disney's parks that were offering nothing new, suggesting that Disney was piggybacking off of Universal's efforts. After all, the two Universal parks are hardly enough to justify a family spending a full 4-7 days to see, especially when you factor in the cost of airfare. The model, as before, would be that a family would be coming to Orlando in order to see the Universal parks, but still would be spending a majority of their time, and quite possibly their resort stay, with Disney. People sometimes ask- why didn't Disney build anything during the late-2000s to justify families making return trips to Orlando? Because Universal was doing it for them.

Now, everything has changed, because Universal's waterpark changes the entire paradigm. Now, Universal will have enough park and waterpark offerings to constitute an entire 4-day stay, or at least enough days of a vacation to justify families using their on-site resorts, cutting Disney out of the picture altogether. This is why, more than ever, Disney is going to be motivated to not just match Universal's offerings, but diffuse to some extent the allure of their attractions. If Disney and Universal were not true competitors before, they're about to become such.

I didn't even think of that but you made more solid points. It's a bit difficult to find the true disconnect because they are for sure competitors. I know a lot of families do take long vacation stays but I would assume a very large % of people are locals/FL residents. Sure they are most likely AP holders but anytime you choose to go to Disney and not go to Uni or vice versa you are giving money to the competition, assuming you eat or buy something during the visit.
 

HitOfDisney

New Member
Good figures aren't public, but it's less than you'd think.
Every place I've read seems to agree that it is at most 10%.

10% would be a lot but I also wonder what the average time spent in Orlando is for the tourist, regardless I think the point still stands.
 

marni1971

Park History nut
Premium Member
Again, you need to read Marty's book - Dream It! Do It! The plans for the Studio park were started long before Universal's announcement. Did it cause them to maybe up the timeline and open it a bit sooner? Sure, why not. But the park itself was not an answer to a Universal park.

I don't know how you can say that EPCOT came together quickly, when they were working on it for 10 years prior to opening. :confused:
Disney MGM was a response to USF. And yes, I've read that book.

Living Seas to Seaworld

And DAK to IOA

Epcot as-was was in development for around five and a half years before opening day.
 

marni1971

Park History nut
Premium Member
So you think that these are "answers" to Potter, and that Disney never would have built them if Potter was never built?

Pandora was Disney's "answer" to Potter Land. SWL is Disney's attempt to keep more guests from going to Uni.

Pandora is the answer to a large third-party IP based land. Not the attractions but the concept and scale.

The potter swatters never happened. These were the attractions. New SM. New Imag. Door Coaster. JTTCOTE derivative. Each park was to get an E.
 

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