Universal Epic Universe (South Expansion Complex) - Opens 2025

The Grand Inquisitor

Well-Known Member
It is still me. I have always looked to keep an even keel on all discussions. I can't totally explain why but the way it was stated that
Universal is doing things much better than Disney, just sounded wrong, and off it went. I will leave here and get back to normal
discussions.
I never wanted to start a disney vs universal thing. I just wanted to state with how Disney is failing on things like Galaxys Edge where they cut the budget versus Universal where Harry Potter is truly amazing. I love Disney and Disney world but I do not like how they constantly cut budgets and keep raising ticket prices.
 

The Grand Inquisitor

Well-Known Member
I never wanted to start a disney vs universal thing. I just wanted to state with how Disney is failing on things like Galaxys Edge where they cut the budget versus Universal where Harry Potter is truly amazing. I love Disney and Disney world but I do not like how they constantly cut budgets and keep raising ticket prices.
I want both parks to succeed, but Disney is not immune to criticism for their laziness regarding cutting many things for Star Wars.
 

JT3000

Well-Known Member
It would happen if we could also criticize Universal without being called Disney fanboys.

I've criticized Universal numerous times and never been called a Disney fanboy. Granted, I've also stated a preference for Universal, but I think how you go about it is the important part. Many who criticize Universal on this forum can't do so without sounding like they're trying to prop up the competition and inviting comparisons. Those same users often fall into the trap of 90% of their posts being criticism or generally negative. It becomes suspicious quickly, especially on a forum that has a long history of users purposely shilling for Disney and smearing the other parks.
 

Casper Gutman

Well-Known Member
Just spent the evening at DAK and rode every ride with ease and used no Fastpasses. Disney is not always stressful, and Universal is not always stress free.
Disney has installed a huge, cumbersome infrastructure - MM+, ADRs, etc. - that very strongly encourages (if not demands) a level of planning many (myself included) consider stressful. These systems are objectively real - the planning push is what Disney intended. Also undebatable are Disney’s dramatic price increases and the growing crowds. More subjective is the judgement of many that Disney has done little to deal with these crowds or to justify their price increases.

In short, while WDW being more stressful is a subjective judgement, Disney has undergone definite, demonstrable changes that have altered the experience in ways many would, indeed, consider stressful.
 

Tom Morrow

Well-Known Member
Disney has installed a huge, cumbersome infrastructure - MM+, ADRs, etc. - that very strongly encourages (if not demands) a level of planning many (myself included) consider stressful. These systems are objectively real - the planning push is what Disney intended. Also undebatable are Disney’s dramatic price increases and the growing crowds. More subjective is the judgement of many that Disney has done little to deal with these crowds or to justify their price increases.

In short, while WDW being more stressful is a subjective judgement, Disney has undergone definite, demonstrable changes that have altered the experience in ways many would, indeed, consider stressful.
I don’t dispute this at all. I hate FP+. Since I’m a local I almost always go to the parks in the evenings when the crowds are more manageable since it doesn’t matter how much I experience. In this way I typically have a stress free time and miss most of the stress FP+ creates.
 

Casper Gutman

Well-Known Member
Again, the comparison was new additions. Not the quality of the additions. It can't be helped that Disney didn't go for cheap.
Disney DOES go for the cheap, they just charge outlandish prices for it. TSL is a MONUMENT to going cheap. SWGE is disappointing many because Disney went cheap. The Riviera looks about as cheap as the Surfside.

Uni cheeped out on F&F. Other then that, none of their recent additions scream “cost-cutting” the way Disney’s do.
 

Tom Morrow

Well-Known Member
Okay so, ignoring Dino-Rama, which is unforgivably bad, let's say Toy Story Land is WDW's cheapest looking land. Which is pretty much true. It STILL looks better and is more inspired than the cheap, tacky/gaudy, and extremely rundown, grungy, faded lands of Marvel, Toon Lagoon, and Seuss Landing. So, you know, almost half of IOA, which is a shame because the rest does look great.

Fallon is about as cheap and basic as it gets. Volcano Bay isn't even as immersive as Typhoon Lagoon, certainly not enough to be called a "water theme park".

Also there's the very, very obvious signs of cost cutting on Hagrid's - the painted tree facade on the giant block show building instead of proper rockwork. The cheap, limited movement animatronics including the Skrewt that looks like a mechanical bull with a rubber suit around it. The views of backstage and infrastructure throughout. The rows of basic identical evergreen trees instead of even attempting to make it look like the forbidden forest. The very scarcely dressed-up interior of the drop track building.
 

JT3000

Well-Known Member
Okay so, ignoring Dino-Rama, which is unforgivably bad, let's say Toy Story Land is WDW's cheapest looking land. Which is pretty much true. It STILL looks better and is more inspired than the cheap, tacky/gaudy, and extremely rundown, dirty, grungy, faded lands of Marvel, Toon Lagoon, and Seuss Landing. So, you know, almost half of IOA, which is a shame because the rest does look great.

While I'll concede that IOA has seen much better days in terms of maintenance, I remain incredulous that anyone could possibly find Toy Story Land more inspired or, frankly, superior to these lands in any way barring upkeep. It's only a marginally better effort than Dino-Rama. I don't care how well it's maintained if it's a poor product to begin with. A freshly painted Seuss Landing or Toon Lagoon quite simply blows TSL out of the water.
 

My95cobras

Well-Known Member
Okay so, ignoring Dino-Rama, which is unforgivably bad, let's say Toy Story Land is WDW's cheapest looking land. Which is pretty much true. It STILL looks better and is more inspired than the cheap, tacky/gaudy, and extremely rundown, grungy, faded lands of Marvel, Toon Lagoon, and Seuss Landing. So, you know, almost half of IOA, which is a shame because the rest does look great.

Fallon is about as cheap and basic as it gets. Volcano Bay isn't even as immersive as Typhoon Lagoon, certainly not enough to be called a "water theme park".

Also there's the very, very obvious signs of cost cutting on Hagrid's - the painted tree facade on the giant block show building instead of proper rockwork. The cheap, limited movement animatronics including the Skrewt that looks like a mechanical bull with a rubber suit around it. The views of backstage and infrastructure throughout. The rows of basic identical evergreen trees instead of even attempting to make it look like the forbidden forest. The very scarcely dressed-up interior of the drop track building.

On top toy story land, you can add Dino Rama and mickeys toon town fair to be the worst themed lands. Way worse than marvel and Seuss.
 

Tom Morrow

Well-Known Member
While I'll concede that IOA has seen much better days in terms of maintenance, I remain incredulous that anyone could possibly find Toy Story Land more inspired or, frankly, superior to these lands in any way barring upkeep. It's only a marginally better effort than Dino-Rama. I don't care how well it's maintained if it's a poor product to begin with. A freshly painted Seuss Landing or Toon Lagoon quite simply blows TSL out of the water.
I felt that identifying what toys were used to make which fixtures (and pretty much every fixture IS a toy) is at least mildly interesting and inspired. Perhaps the lack of building structures and buildings you can enter is what makes it feel cheap? Despite this, in my opinion, it still looks sculpted, landscaped, and aesthetically pleasing. I assure you all, I don't think Toy Story land is a great land by any means, but it isn't as bad or tacky as I thought it was going to be (because the other Toy Story lands are much worse).

My biggest complaint with Marvel and Toon has always been the gaudy cutouts and randomness strewn everywhere creating lots of visual clutter. In general I think Universal has a bad tendency to create visually cluttered areas. Seuss is more inspired in creating a sense of place, but for whatever reason, the paint they apply fades super quickly (and yes I know that it's supposed to be pastel colors) and looks drab until they paint it again. Universal also does this weird thing where they paint the walkways in some locations like Seuss Landing which looks tacky to begin with and results in them quickly looking gross and scuffed up. The rundown look of the three lands is perhaps what really makes them feel cheap to me, though. Before everyone jumps down my throat, take a close look at these three lands next time, they're grungy and in need of a serious refresh. The area in and around Hulk, for example, is easily the dirtiest, trashiest area in any Orlando park, it's as bad as the worst Six Flags park and is downright appalling. I think Skull Island, Jurassic Park (minus current construction walls), obviously Hogsmeade, Lost Continent, and Port of Entry all look great. It's weird how unbalanced IOA is, with the three lands that need the most attention to look good seemingly receiving the least.
 

The Grand Inquisitor

Well-Known Member
I felt that identifying what toys were used to make which fixtures (and pretty much every fixture IS a toy) is at least mildly interesting and inspired. Perhaps the lack of building structures and buildings you can enter is what makes it feel cheap? Despite this, in my opinion, it still looks sculpted, landscaped, and aesthetically pleasing. I assure you all, I don't think Toy Story land is a great land by any means, but it isn't as bad or tacky as I thought it was going to be (because the other Toy Story lands are much worse).

My biggest complaint with Marvel and Toon has always been the gaudy cutouts and randomness strewn everywhere creating lots of visual clutter. In general I think Universal has a bad tendency to create visually cluttered areas. Seuss is more inspired in creating a sense of place, but for whatever reason, the paint they apply fades super quickly (and yes I know that it's supposed to be pastel colors) and looks drab until they paint it again. Universal also does this weird thing where they paint the walkways in some locations like Seuss Landing which looks tacky to begin with and results in them quickly looking gross and scuffed up. The rundown look of the three lands is perhaps what really makes them feel cheap to me, though. Before everyone jumps down my throat, take a close look at these three lands next time, they're grungy and in need of a serious refresh. The area in and around Hulk, for example, is easily the dirtiest, trashiest area in any Orlando park, it's as bad as the worst Six Flags park and is downright appalling. I think Skull Island, Jurassic Park (minus current construction walls), obviously Hogsmeade, Lost Continent, and Port of Entry all look great. It's weird how unbalanced IOA is, with the three lands that need the most attention to look good seemingly receiving the least.
I think the whole point is Marvel and Toon lagoon look cheap is because you are supposed to be in a comic book and a comic newspaper.But other than that IOA is probably my favorite theme park besides Magic kingdom.
 

JT3000

Well-Known Member
I felt that identifying what toys were used to make which fixtures (and pretty much every fixture IS a toy) is at least mildly interesting and inspired. Perhaps the lack of building structures and buildings you can enter is what makes it feel cheap? Despite this, in my opinion, it still looks sculpted, landscaped, and aesthetically pleasing. I assure you all, I don't think Toy Story land is a great land by any means, but it isn't as bad or tacky as I thought it was going to be (because the other Toy Story lands are much worse).

My biggest complaint with Marvel and Toon has always been the gaudy cutouts and randomness strewn everywhere creating lots of visual clutter. In general I think Universal has a bad tendency to create visually cluttered areas. Seuss is more inspired in creating a sense of place, but for whatever reason, the paint they apply fades super quickly (and yes I know that it's supposed to be pastel colors) and looks drab until they paint it again. Universal also does this weird thing where they paint the walkways in some locations like Seuss Landing which looks tacky to begin with and results in them quickly looking gross and scuffed up. The rundown look of the three lands is perhaps what really makes them feel cheap to me, though. Before everyone jumps down my throat, take a close look at these three lands next time, they're grungy and in need of a serious refresh. The area in and around Hulk, for example, is easily the dirtiest, trashiest area in any Orlando park, it's as bad as the worst Six Flags park and is downright appalling. I think Skull Island, Jurassic Park (minus current construction walls), obviously Hogsmeade, Lost Continent, and Port of Entry all look great. It's weird how unbalanced IOA is, with the three lands that need the most attention to look good seemingly receiving the least.

I see Toon Lagoon as more zany than cluttered. The visual design ties directly into the theme. If these toons were real, they wouldn't be living in a neat, refined world where nothing is askew.

I don't see Marvel as being cluttered either. Most everything is strategically placed, even if it's not the most aesthetically pleasing format. They might have been better off going for a more realistic angle here, as it would have aged better, but it was a relatively unique design at the time that, again, properly conveyed the theme of action jumping off comic book pages.

Seuss has always had problems with its paint. The Florida sun wrecks havoc on this land in short order. When the park first opened, the entire land was covered in vibrant pastels -- including the ground. That was always the first thing to go, so they eventually started painting it in dark oranges and blacks, and the land hasn't looked as good since. Why it's in its current state, I have no idea, but maybe if enough people made them aware of the problem, it would get fixed.
 

Casper Gutman

Well-Known Member
Everything that follows is subjective. This should go without saying, but the stated opinions are strong, so I felt it best to reiterate the point.

I honestly find it very, very hard to believe that TSL could be considered better than Toon, Seuss, or Marvel without a heavy, HEAVY dose of Disney brand loyalty. All three sections are brightly painted and, as such, tend to dull in the Florida sun - that’s true. But I’ve been to IOA very recently and none of these lands look bad at all - particularly not in comparison to areas of WDW.

Let’s dig into Marvel a bit, since I think it’s one of the best lands in Orlando and we have a direct comparison available with the Avengers Campus Disney is building. Marvel is actually a tough subject for a land, because Marvel’s whole point is it’s proximity to reality - most stories take place in NY, not DCs Gotham or Metropolis or Oa or etc... The upshot is that designers need to come up with a unique approach rather then just reproducing an IP location like Radiator Springs or Hogsmeade. Uni choose to create an impressionistic space full of gripping color and larger-than-life characters that exists somewhere between the comic page and the cheap TV cartoons based on those comics (The Spidey ride, for instance, is all the TV cartoon - an approach that makes more sense when you consider that when Uni was designing, Marvel’s comics were teetering on the edge of bankruptcy and oblivion.)

Disney, meanwhile, is taking a hyper-realistic approach, creating an exact reproduction of a location we’ve never seen on film. Personally, I find that Uni’s colorful, effusive approach captures the chaotic spirit of superhero comics much more then Disney’s industrial, controlled, quasi-educational approach, which seems likely to drain a lot of life from the properties.

Some folks here seem predisosed to dismiss anything other then the hyper real approach (outside of Future World or Tomorrowland or any of the other locations Disney has used it to great effect.). But TSL is a great example of how the hyper-real approach breaks down. The entire “you are toys” theme, of course, is a way to slap a veneer of theming onto unthemed rides, but it quickly breaks down. The scale varies wildly, some objects are clearly toys while others aren’t, Saucers pretty much breaks the theme completely, giant unthemed warehouses are everywhere... Like Marvel land giant stationary statues of key characters are scattered about, but the hyper-real approach doesn’t justify their existence while Marvel’s impressionistic approach does.

As for the above attempted dissection of Hagrid, the same can be done to any great ride. Let’s take DLs Indy, one of the 5 best rides in the US; you have an Indy who sounds nothing like Ford, a rotating gate that doesn’t rotate, visible tracks, a hallway of flat painted skeletons meant to be 3-D, etc. Even ToT, the best ride in the US, has a hallway full of video monitors and mannequins coated in glo-paint.

Long story short: I’ll take IOA over any Orlando Disney park except AK.

PS: Dino-Rama is much better then TSL: it looks like what it’s meant to be, is consistent in scale and concept, and serves as a sharp, witty punchline to all of Dinoland.
 

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