Universal Epic Universe (South Expansion Complex) - Opens 2025

Tom Morrow

Well-Known Member
I would argue that Spider-Man has the proper cinematic pacing that we’re discussing here. Also Kong and a few others.

Introduction - three act structure with the third act being the most exciting part/climax - conclusion.

However, more often Universal does not follow this structure or have any semblance of pacing, and you go full throttle at the beginning of the ride and they never let off the gas until the end. Examples: Forbidden Journey, Gringotts, Transformers, The Simpsons Ride... and well, most of them.

In Forbidden Journey, the climax of the ride (being saved from the dementors and “it’s caving in!!”) is not any more intense or interesting than the events of the beginning of the ride, where you are immediately chased and attacked by a dragon. In Spider-Man, you begin by creeping around corners slowly and end with being whipped through the air.

Unlike, say, a basic roller coaster, cinematic and heavily themed rides should have cinematic pacing, or at the very least, not be on full blast the entire time.
 

JT3000

Well-Known Member
Seeing Haunted Mansion cited as an example of great storytelling made my day. A ride that wasn't even supposed to have much of a story originally, and the conspicuous storytelling that was later shoehorned in is now considered by most to be the worst parts of the entire attraction! :facepalm:

But this is coming from the same person who thinks TRON even has storytelling! A roller coaster through darkness and neon special effects. Next we'll hear about how even SeaWorld's coasters have masterful storytelling while Universal's rides just suxxorz.
 
Last edited:

Tom Morrow

Well-Known Member
Haunted Mansion doesn't have a story, but it is one of the best examples of great cinematic attraction pacing (although the modern playful queue additions ruin this a little). A first time visitor begins seeing this foreboding structure and has no clue what to expect inside. Will it be scary? Silly? The introduction hints at both, but gives you little information, and leaves you feeling more apprehensive. You board the doom buggy, and start out seeing very little. For more than the first 1/3rd of the ride, you don't actually see a ghostly apparition, only visual and audible evidence of ghosts, while the activity you are seeing increases as you go. The action pauses for a moment for the seance. You are then bombarded with what you've been anticipating, actual visible ghosts, presented on a massive scale in what is still one of the most impressive scenes in any theme park. The action continues to rise until the climax of being plopped right in the middle of a rowdy ghost graveyard party. It isn't until here where it is confirmed that the spooks are playful. You then get a proper goodbye conclusion and epilogue.

People get it wrong when they insist theme park attractions need a dictated story, they totally don't, but solid pacing makes a huge difference in the experience.

I'm also not saying that all attractions should follow a narrative structure either. Flight of Passage doesn't follow one (and it certainly has no story, only background information on what you're doing) but the flight experience has solid pacing by starting out with relatively "mundane" flight movements and visuals. The visuals gradually get more grandiose and the flight maneuvers increase in intensity, until you reach the first "peak". After this moment, everything pauses for a moment for a breather (this is honestly my favorite part of the ride because it's beautiful and I can't think of any other ride that has a moment of reflection like this). You then begin the second half of the flight, with the duration featuring the most impressive and beautiful visuals and intense flight maneuvers.
 

David1111

Member
I would argue that Spider-Man has the proper cinematic pacing that we’re discussing here. Also Kong and a few others.

Introduction - three act structure with the third act being the most exciting part/climax - conclusion.

However, more often Universal does not follow this structure or have any semblance of pacing, and you go full throttle at the beginning of the ride and they never let off the gas until the end. Examples: Forbidden Journey, Gringotts, Transformers, The Simpsons Ride... and well, most of them.

In Forbidden Journey, the climax of the ride (being saved from the dementors and “it’s caving in!!”) is not any more intense or interesting than the events of the beginning of the ride, where you are immediately chased and attacked by a dragon. In Spider-Man, you begin by creeping around corners slowly and end with being whipped through the air.

Unlike, say, a basic roller coaster, cinematic and heavily themed rides should have cinematic pacing, or at the very least, not be on full blast the entire time.
This is a reply I was looking for. One that actually discusses and doesn't just cast the concept off as crazy. Thank you.

Seeing Haunted Mansion cited as an example of great storytelling made my day. A ride that wasn't even supposed to have much of a story originally, and the conspicuous storytelling that was later shoehorned in is now considered by most to be the worst parts of the entire attraction! :facepalm:

But this is coming from the same person who thinks TRON even has storytelling! A roller coaster through darkness and neon special effects. Next we'll hear about how even SeaWorld's coasters have masterful storytelling while Universal's rides just suxxorz.
I wasn't talking about the mediocre story in HM, but how it's framed on a technical level. In a themepark, that is a way of storytelling. It's perfectly paced, bringing in a meticulously crafted 'world' to an audience that builds intrigue and suspicion as each scene unfolds. You legitimately don't know what scene comes next, but every one delivers something unique and brings you along nicely. Every scene is meticulously crafted from the attic (original) to the party. Disney has regressed on a lot of things but that is an entirely separate topic. I think you're viewing this from the wrong angle. Sometimes it's a good idea to watch things differently. Whether it's watching a movie for it's technical details, or a theme park ride. How the shot is frames; how a ride's scene is. What is going on visually and underneath. A skilled painter can tell you a million things about a painting that none of us here could catch!

TRON does not have 'storytelling per say,' but reading my post, I was including everything from pacing to the soundtrack and how that let's the story (in this case a simple one) unfold. TRON has a very good score that feels like it's made for the ride (more work required than just copy and paste). The ride is very balanced and builds tension. Comparing a dark ride like that to a coaster is apples to oranges. A better comparison is the Rip Ride Rocket to TRON, not in theme, but the storytelling. A hybrid dark ride/coaster Everest could be compared to Mummy, arguably the best Universal ride to use cinematic elements. I'm not saying Universal doesn't have it at all, but for however good FJ is, it's only mostly random scenes stringed together like the terrible Ariel ride, without a painterly eye for unfolding a story before your eyes. Not talking about a backstory (although that can be used), but the story you are apart of is the main part, and it requires good writing/pacing to maximize it.

I came on too strong, and I apologize for that, but I was bringing legitimate discussion to the table and was cast off as not. The whole reason I brought this up was that I was concerned for the new park not worrying about it as much as they should, but I hope they do.
Haunted Mansion doesn't have a story, but it is one of the best examples of great cinematic attraction pacing (although the modern playful queue additions ruin this a little). A first time visitor begins seeing this foreboding structure and has no clue what to expect inside. Will it be scary? Silly? The introduction hints at both, but gives you little information, and leaves you feeling more apprehensive. You board the doom buggy, and start out seeing very little. For more than the first 1/3rd of the ride, you don't actually see a ghostly apparition, only visual and audible evidence of ghosts, while the activity you are seeing increases as you go. The action pauses for a moment for the seance. You are then bombarded with what you've been anticipating, actual visible ghosts, presented on a massive scale in what is still one of the most impressive scenes in any theme park. The action continues to rise until the climax of being plopped right in the middle of a rowdy ghost graveyard party. It isn't until here where it is confirmed that the spooks are playful. You then get a proper goodbye conclusion and epilogue.

People get it wrong when they insist theme park attractions need a dictated story, they totally don't, but solid pacing makes a huge difference in the experience.

I'm also not saying that all attractions should follow a narrative structure either. Flight of Passage doesn't follow one (and it certainly has no story, only background information on what you're doing) but the flight experience has solid pacing by starting out with relatively "mundane" flight movements and visuals. The visuals gradually get more grandiose and the flight maneuvers increase in intensity, until you reach the first "peak". After this moment, everything pauses for a moment for a breather (this is honestly my favorite part of the ride because it's beautiful and I can't think of any other ride that has a moment of reflection like this). You then begin the second half of the flight, with the duration featuring the most impressive and beautiful visuals and intense flight maneuvers.
Agreed with all of what you wrote. To comment on the last bit that's a good point. Nobody cares about story on Soarin' or Popeye's because it doesn't really need one. My point was storytelling elements like pacing (and others) help propel a ride further. FoP does a REALLY good job at pacing and has strong direction; it really may be the best example of what proper storyboarding can do for simulators. Compare it to the hodgepodge of Star Tours... But like you said, not all rides need it. Gringotts is probably Uni's best example of a ride that could have been mind-blowing was dogged down because of this problem. Screens aren't even the problem, it just has storytelling issues. I enjoy the ride because it's an E-ticket like I do Test Track, but they have some issues. I was mainly pointing out the best instances of them, and said that Uni doesn't have them as much at the top and would benefit from focusing on that aspect more.
 

Tom Morrow

Well-Known Member
Pacing is a major problem for me with Gringotts. The ride starts off with a spectacle that really should have been saved for the finale. After the tilt track drop, it never again lives up to that level of excitement, and the majority of the remainder of the ride is spent ushering your vehicle from one show top to the next. This is why Gringotts gets complaints of being "too short", despite having an average ride time.

Gringotts is also a case where too much emphasis was placed on storytelling, by placing the ride at a very, very specific point in the Harry Potter timeline. When everyone heard there would be a Gringotts cart ride, our imaginations ran wild with what kind of crazy trippy roller coaster Universal could come up with. Instead, the bank cart system plays second chair to being a story delivery system.

Forbidden Journey is another case where the ride is an endless onslaught of chaos, but the ride system works in its favor by having the screen segments divide the ride up between faster movement on the screens and more intimate interaction for the physical scenes. The story is all over the place and makes little sense as it is more of a "Harry Potter Greatest Hits", but I can excuse it because it's just such a cool ride.

But anyway, the point of all this is that I would like to see Universal improve on their craft. They've mastered the ride technology, now they need to move on from their tropes and design crutches.
 

The Great Gonzo

Well-Known Member
This is going be amazing if they have the Classic Monsters. I've been dreaming about this being possible since I was a little weirdo.

Plus it may get Disney off their rich butts to build a 5th park. It has been 21 years.
 

Tom Morrow

Well-Known Member
This is going be amazing if they have the Classic Monsters. I've been dreaming about this being possible since I was a little weirdo.

Plus it may get Disney off their rich butts to build a 5th park. It has been 21 years.
Disney doesn't need and can't support a 5th park. The problem all along has always been that DAK and DHS were underbuilt from the beginning and Epcot did not evolve and grow in a good way. The parks stagnated from the mid-00's until the mid '10's. In the last five years, they have been addressing these issues, and I expect them to continue to flesh out the existing parks before ever considering a 5th.
 

The Great Gonzo

Well-Known Member
Disney doesn't need and can't support a 5th park. The problem all along has always been that DAK and DHS were underbuilt from the beginning and Epcot did not evolve and grow in a good way. The parks stagnated from the mid-00's until the mid '10's. In the last five years, they have been addressing these issues, and I expect them to continue to flesh out the existing parks before ever considering a 5th.

I agree that they will probably address their needs first. But I beg to differ my fine gentleman about the 5th park idea. The parks have already become too unbearable most of the year.
 

brb1006

Well-Known Member
Challenge accepted.
dsc015471.jpg


What do I win? Or was I not eligible for a prize because I'm part of the Universal fandom, which you're now attempting to preemptively delegitimize because you know we'll disagree with your position, which is being presented as fact? On the Universal forum, no less. And we're the "fanboys?" For the love of Mickey, take off the blinders.
Yeah that entire section of Dinoland needs to be demolished and replaced with something better themed.
 

cheezbat

Well-Known Member
Going further, WDW can't support a fifth park because the infrastructure and staffing requirements just aren't there. As is, Disney could not properly staff WDW these days without its College Program, and they've already reached the limits of how much they can get out of it.
I find this ironic, seeing as how the greater orlando area is on a major population boom. So many new houses being built, so many more people moving here....if Disney paid well enough they wouldn’t have a staffing problem.
 

trr1

Well-Known Member
I find this ironic, seeing as how the greater orlando area is on a major population boom. So many new houses being built, so many more people moving here....if Disney paid well enough they wouldn’t have a staffing problem.
and there's the rub paying well enough. the average wage is between $9 and $12 dollars depending on what department you are in
 

Sirwalterraleigh

Premium Member
This is going be amazing if they have the Classic Monsters. I've been dreaming about this being possible since I was a little weirdo.

Plus it may get Disney off their rich butts to build a 5th park. It has been 21 years.
No 5th park
Disney doesn't need and can't support a 5th park. The problem all along has always been that DAK and DHS were underbuilt from the beginning and Epcot did not evolve and grow in a good way. The parks stagnated from the mid-00's until the mid '10's. In the last five years, they have been addressing these issues, and I expect them to continue to flesh out the existing parks before ever considering a 5th.
Correct...no 5th park
I agree that they will probably address their needs first. But I beg to differ my fine gentleman about the 5th park idea. The parks have already become too unbearable most of the year.
Incorrect...no Fifth park
They’re unbearable because they have substandard capacity. Another park with substandard capacity won’t fix that problem.
Correct...so you don’t need a 5th park
I find this ironic, seeing as how the greater orlando area is on a major population boom. So many new houses being built, so many more people moving here....if Disney paid well enough they wouldn’t have a staffing problem.
Until the next housing crash...when everything will collapse for 6 years and it’s John Steinbeck...

Always that way in the “riviera”
and there's the rub paying well enough. the average wage is between $9 and $12 dollars depending on what department you are in

That’s never gonna change...it’s good for some people in some situations...never universally so
 

raven

Well-Known Member
I find this ironic, seeing as how the greater orlando area is on a major population boom. So many new houses being built, so many more people moving here....if Disney paid well enough they wouldn’t have a staffing problem.
Housing costs in the Orlando area are among the highest in the state. Until they figure out a way to regulate the cost, they will just raise their prices to take any higher wages people get.
 

cheezbat

Well-Known Member
Housing costs in the Orlando area are among the highest in the state. Until they figure out a way to regulate the cost, they will just raise their prices to take any higher wages people get.
Trust me I know. I’ve lived in Florida for 18 years and moved to orlando 6 years ago...I moved out a few years back because it’s just getting too expensive...and the job pay isn’t increasing anywhere near the same rate as housing prices.
 

Sirwalterraleigh

Premium Member
Just of interest what does a house in a decent neighborhood cost per foot? Let's say a 3 bedroom 1800 sqft detached house? In my area the cheapest you can get that house for is around $250,000. Prices head up from there.

I have noticed the wages seem to be low in Orlando. I saw a grocery store advertising $22.50 an hour on Hilton Head Island which isn't far from me. I don't think it's possible to hire someone here for $10 an hour? Disney apparently can find thousands of people to work for that, not sure how because Disney wouldn't ever have a staff if they paid like that where I am.

You’re near Hilton head...kinda different from the rest of SC - generally speaking - isn’t it?

Anyway...Orlando is 75% based on tourism...tourism is renowned for crappy wages. That’s the dynamic in orlando. Great place to travel...not exactly Shangri-la to work in.

It always is what it is.
 

OG Runner

Well-Known Member
It is when you say crazy stuff like this...



Dinoland was a purposefully-built permanent area of DAK (unlike, say, Camp MickeyMinnie).

Also...

1. Stop expressing opinion as fact.
2. Stop using all caps.
3. Stop calling people "dude."
4. Stop thinking huge walls of text equals cogent arguments.
5. Stop using emotional arguments such as we're supposed to be nice to new people. No. We're not. Not when they act like you do.

I would add, Stop always expressing your opinions as absolutes. (just continuing the "Stops, not a response to this post) None of the
parks are perfect.
 

Register on WDWMAGIC. This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.

Back
Top Bottom