Universal Epic Universe (South Expansion Complex) - Opens 2025

[MisterPenguin]

I thought this article was interesting this is just a snippet

Universal gets its way and acquires more land near I-Drive for future theme parks
After years of speculation, Universal Studios has now secured the additional property that crisscrossed their southern property. The purchase also includes the long sought after deed rights that had previously blocked Universal from building a theme park on the property.

Ironically, the property was previously owned by Universal Studios but sold it in 2003 when its former parent company, Vivendi, was struggling financially (around the same time Vivendi began talks to sell Universal to NBC which happened less than a year later).

The 1,800 acres were sold to Georgia developer Stan Thomas for $70 million, but Universal ensured it wouldn’t be facing any competition by placing a deed on the property banning large-scale amusement uses, including theme parks. Before selling the property, Universal had submitted plans to Orange County for a third theme park, 2 18-hole golf courses, 2 million square feet of retail, and more than 10,000 hotel and timeshare units.

Buying and selling and buying wasn't ironic. It was to keep competition out...

Well... most of that is old news. That Uni was in the process of buying all that foreclosed land was well-known. The hiccup was that the previous owner was looking for a payday by claiming a right to keep Uni from building theme parks there. What is news is that the courts have told that guy, "nope."

The history:

1. Most of that land was owned by Lockheed Martin.

2. Uni bought the land from LM.

3. Uni self-imposed a restriction on the land that it can't be used for a theme park.

4. Uni sold the land to Thomas with the stipulation that the theme-park-restriction remained. And, aha! We now know why Uni bought and sold the land: to keep anyone else from buying the land with the purpose of putting up a competing theme park by attaching the restriction to it.

5. Thomas lost the land due to foreclosure during the Great Recession (most likely he couldn't afford the real estate taxes). Land reverted to Orlando.

6. A different real estate buyer bought the foreclosed land.

7. Uni bought the land back.

8. Uni got their ducks in a row with Orlando zoning to put a theme park there.

9. Thomas pops back up with the claim that when he bought the land, he was given the duty of making sure the land was never used for a theme park. And even though the land was foreclosed on, he retained that right and was going to exercise it to keep Uni from building theme parks on it, and so he sued. [It was pretty obvious he was looking for a pay-out from Uni to drop the suit.]

10. Uni decides to make the southern most part of the area overflow parking for the Orlando Convention Center. It's pretty clear that Uni is angling the new property to be the go-to theme park destination for all the folks in the local hotels attending conventions.

11. Uni just won the suit against Thomas. There is nothing restricting them now from developing all that land pretty much as they wish (though, very likely there will be wetland considerations for a that big chunk on the east where there's ponds, canals, and low-lying drainage swamps.

In the pic below, all the red and all the orange is now Uni's free and clear to develop as they like (zoning and conservation permitting).

View attachment 277374

 

[winstongator]

The shape disturbs me. LOL> How are you going to make a themed area with real life things all over the place at every corner? I'm sure there is a bigger plan going on. Any ways this is getting interesting. I think that golf course will be Universal's soon BTW.

Parks in the middle section. The two protruding blocks, up and down, are resorts.

 

[winstongator]

Thankfully, Comcast is quite good at the long game and will slowly be able to pick up more land over time to build a green wall around the new resort.

Comcast's core business of CATV delivery is increasingly uncertain long term. I'd imagine they'd want to diversify, and Disney's parks have made up for ESPN's declining profits.

 

[ryguy]

I am sure lockheed and shingle creek have dollar signs dancing in their heads. Their property just became much more valuable. Uni should buy shingle creek for sure. Nice hotel and good golf course. If they don't want the course can always use the land for something else.

 

[Big Bang]

View attachment 277459

This map is slightly inaccurate. The two parcels on the north end right by the water treatment facility (one of them is shaped like Nevada) were included also included in the sale. (previously owned by Fourth Quarter properties - Another Stan Thomas affiliate).

Thankfully, Comcast is quite good at the long game and will slowly be able to pick up more land over time to build a green wall around the new resort.

Yep. There are a few additional parcels connected with theirs that have had movement. Just south of Lockheed Martin for example, sold part to Ripley but the owner retained the northern end which Comcast will all but certainly pick up.

Comcast's core business of CATV delivery is increasingly uncertain long term. I'd imagine they'd want to diversify, and Disney's parks have made up for ESPN's declining profits.

That is what drove their ambition to buy NBCUniversal, and then DreamWorks as well. Good on them to diversify out of that dependence. There are certainly other pieces I'm sure they'd love to have. If the chips fall and Time Warner breaks up, I can see one particular part of that mix I bet they'd jump at.

I am sure lockheed and shingle creek have dollar signs dancing in their heads. Their property just became much more valuable. Uni should buy shingle creek for sure. Nice hotel and good golf course. If they don't want the course can always use the land for something else.

Rosen Shingle Creek being bought out is all but a certainty, IMO. Comcast basically circling them with the property they just bought is rather telling. They have 3x major points that Universal wants on its property: 1) Resort, 2) Golf Course, 3) Convention Hall. I can see them adding some theming, but overall leaving the property as is.

Lockheed Martin will likely never sell. In fact they just announced a major expansion on the north end of their property. That said, with Kirkman road being eventually expanded south into their property (linking up with Universal Blvd) that puts a major road between their main campus and their heliport. Now that piece I could see eventually being sold to Universal.

I also wouldn't be surprised if they start making a move on Vista Cay Resorts.

 

[MisterPenguin]

This map is slightly inaccurate. The two parcels on the north end right by the water treatment facility (one of them is shaped like Nevada) were included also included in the sale. (previously owned by Fourth Quarter properties - Another Stan Thomas affiliate).

The county appraiser site doesn't show Universal as the new owner. They're still listed as Fourth Quarter.

Other online sources also leave those two properties off the owned-by-Uni maps. The also say Thomas has retained some nearby properties, so, I assume they mean those two lots.

Rick Singh CFA Orange County Property Appraiser Florida

 

[Big Bang]

The county appraiser site doesn't show Universal as the new owner. They're still listed as Fourth Quarter.

Other online sources also leave those two properties off the owned-by-Uni maps. The also say Thomas has retained some nearby properties, so, I assume they mean those two lots.

I found the actual court documents showing the transfer of ownership, but for whatever reason my post keeps getting blocked. Fourth Quarter did in fact sell them to SLRC. The County Appraiser's site takes 30-90 days to reflect any property sales. The other plots sold still show as being under Universal City Property Management III LLC, which is owned by Stan Thomas.

See attached for part of the header showing the parties, and the transaction

 

[MisterPenguin]

I found the actual court documents showing the transfer of ownership, but for whatever reason my post keeps getting blocked. Fourth Quarter did in fact sell them to SLRC. The County Appraiser's site takes 30-90 days to reflect any property sales. The other plots still show as being under Universal City Property Management III LLC, which is owned by Stan Thomas.

OK, then. Nevada and Connecticut belong to Universal.

So... that was a direct sale from Thomas to Uni and not through the foreclosure roundabout? Perhaps that was part of the settlement.

So... new map!!

 

[Big Bang]

OK, then. Nevada and Connecticut belong to Universal.

So... that was a direct sale from Thomas to Uni and not through the foreclosure roundabout? Perhaps that was part of the settlement.

So... new map!!

IIRC, the plots didn't have any pending foreclosures, so yeah clean transfer. Hold on to the map though. Reading through the deed docs and I found what looks to be 4x more transfers from OHL Holdings, yet another Stan Thomas holding company. Also, you missed a spot on the north end of Rosen Shingle Creek.

 

[MisterPenguin]

IIRC, the plots didn't have any pending foreclosures, so yeah clean transfer. Hold on to the map though. Reading through the deed docs and I found what looks to be 4x more transfers from OHL Holdings, yet another Stan Thomas holding company. Also, you missed a spot on the north end of Rosen Shingle Creek.

Got it. Since there were only four OHL Holding properties left on the board, I switched them to Uni. New map (of 1,536 acres)...

 

[JoeCamel]

So what they waiting for - built in this lifetime will ya.

They applied for the mass grading of 400+ acres, have approval for a 2500 space parking lot, approval for the stockpiling of dirt. I would say this is moving along nicely considering they are still closing on property purchases.

Eta; they added 124 acres to the mass grading plan today, 4/26/18

 

[bhg469]

The next 10 years are going to be incredible for theme park fans. Except those who STILL insist that they will never go to universal, in which case, more for us.

 

[lebeau]

The next 10 years are going to be incredible for theme park fans. Except those who STILL insist that they will never go to universal, in which case, more for us.

Those people are why Disney World is no longer worth visiting and Universal remains a bit of an undiscovered secret. Bless their little hearts!

 

[Big Bang]

Ok, so after going over pages of the legalese (painful), I've noticed the following:

The quit claim deed assigning all rights, etc. to SLRC had the term "Less and Except" which I had missed. i.e. they retain ownership of the following plots or pieces of larger plots. The 4x OHL stay with Stan Thomas. He also retained portions of the following plots from UCPM:

Whole plot of

Partial retention (approximations in red) based on verbiage of quit claim deed:

Lastly, some kind of "Crescent Wetland", which I started to think was the eastern side of the plot Universal already had but doesn't seem to be the case. I can't place where this one is as the deed is very brief about this part. These are the parts that Thomas got new financing for. Hopefully ones the Assessor's office has their map update we'll have a much clearer picture.

Anyone curious enough to read the document can find it on the Orange County Comptroller's site. Doc # DOC2323S18360.

There is also a Right of First Refusal agreement between SLRC and UCPM.

 

[donsullivan]

Overall transportation both between the parks and hotels as well as arrival, parking and departure for day guests is going to be a really interesting thing to watch. That area of the city is renowned for ridiculous traffic and there is only a small amount of land available to expand the roads to support a significantly increased flow of traffic. Like every problem, it's one that can be solved but it will not be cheap or fast and it will not come without a lot of local community battles. Any roadway that routes traffic away from the I-Drive hotels and merchants will be resisted pretty aggressively and will likely spend years in the courts. My sense is all of the infrastructure issues involved in supporting this development will be the most complex and schedule impacting part of it all.

Not to mention that they will not be able to put buildings on all of that land either. The Water Management District and zoning is going to require a whole water management plan (lots of retention ponds) that will eat up a good bit of that land as well..

 

[Big Bang]

Overall transportation both between the parks and hotels as well as arrival, parking and departure for day guests is going to be a really interesting thing to watch. That area of the city is renowned for ridiculous traffic and there is only a small amount of land available to expand the roads to support a significantly increased flow of traffic. Like every problem, it's one that can be solved but it will not be cheap or fast and it will not come without a lot of local community battles. Any roadway that routes traffic away from the I-Drive hotels and merchants will be resisted pretty aggressively and will likely spend years in the courts. My sense is all of the infrastructure issues involved in supporting this development will be the most complex and schedule impacting part of it all.

Not to mention that they will not be able to put buildings on all of that land either. The Water Management District and zoning is going to require a whole water management plan (lots of retention ponds) that will eat up a good bit of that land as well..

I think along those lines the South Kirkman Rd extension all the way down to Destination Parkway will likely be given the green light with Universal chipping in on the project. With the slight enlargement of the center property with the added plots that a large lake or retention pond in the same vein as The Magic Kingdom or Epcot is what we will end up with. Plus with the property stretching all the way to Shingle Creek on the east side now that they can still put a large body of water and still have ample land for one or two parks.

I think my question is going to be, how much can they use Shingle Creek itself for water traffic? I would think with that plot north of Sandlake Rd, that is destined to be a resort of some sort, and that using the waterway would be the best way to ferry guest down to the park.

 

[donsullivan]

I think along those lines the South Kirkman Rd extension all the way down to Destination Parkway will likely be given the green light with Universal chipping in on the project. With the slight enlargement of the center property with the added plots that a large lake or retention pond in the same vein as The Magic Kingdom or Epcot is what we will end up with. Plus with the property stretching all the way to Shingle Creek on the east side now that they can still put a large body of water and still have ample land for one or two parks.

I think my question is going to be, how much can they use Shingle Creek itself for water traffic? I would think with that plot north of Sandlake Rd, that is destined to be a resort of some sort, and that using the waterway would be the best way to ferry guest down to the park.

I can't imagine any of that Shingle Creek watershed land will be available for development of any kind. After the mess the Army Corps of Engineers made of the Kissimmee River downstream (Details here) of this and had to repair over the decades, the restrictions on doing anything to that watershed are even higher than ever. My guess would be that whole plot of land on either side of Sand Lake will be off limits for any development at all.

 

[Big Bang]

I can't imagine any of that Shingle Creek watershed land will be available for development of any kind. After the mess the Army Corps of Engineers made of the Kissimmee River downstream (Details here) of this and had to repair over the decades, the restrictions on doing anything to that watershed are even higher than ever. My guess would be that whole plot of land on either side of Sand Lake will be off limits for any development at all.

That really raises the question as to why they bothered even buying it then if that is the case.

 

[donsullivan]

That really raises the question as to why they bothered even buying it then if that is the case.

My guess is that it was just part of the total set of parcels they were purchasing from the previous owner who needed to dump everything. It's not all that uncommon for wetlands areas that cannot be developed to be owned by private parties. They will just sell at a lower price per acre since they cannot be developed. Disney owns a bunch of wetlands land that they can't develop as well.

 

[Big Bang]

My guess is that it was just part of the total set of parcels they were purchasing from the previous owner who needed to dump everything. It's not all that uncommon for wetlands areas that cannot be developed to be owned by private parties. They will just sell at a lower price per acre since they cannot be developed. Disney owns a bunch of wetlands land that they can't develop as well.

Sure. For the eastern end of their property now it does make for a nice barrier between the future park(s) and other businesses. They certainly have enough land for now to do some interesting things. Going to be very interesting to see what they do next.