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Unites States National Debt - How Much And What For

Quinnmac000

Well-Known Member
Even if true these are not the same as paying for someone else's debts. I'd like my mortgage to be paid in that case.
Property debt is different than medical, education,....

Paying off people's property debt would allow for more spending however it benefits mostly the property owner who can sell that property and pocket full profit.

Whereas education, the goal is the education received would go back to providing services to society such as someone going to law school becoming a lawyer or a law professor, someone going to business school opening a business which thus open up more job opportunities. Paying off that school debt allows them a great focus on financing other opportunities to better themselves such as purchasing an house, opening a business, saving for a pandemic at a younger age making them less reliant on Social Security and other government programs at an older age.

While I'm sure your tuition was lower than it is now...imagine where you would be, how much further you would be if you didn't have to deal with student debt.

Medical debt is the biggest cause of bankruptcy in the states which is why subsidized healthcare is important (last stat i saw said 66.5% of all bankruptcies in America stem from medical debt). That can happen to any and actually can deter everyone. Which is why it should be forgiven.

High tide rises all ships. By pushing everyone up, wealth inequality goes down. When the levels of inequality of wealth go down, stats have suggested crime goes down. If crime goes down, law enforcement budgets go down (savings). Poverty goes down (savings as less money), less wealth inequality means the poor neighborhood finally gets influx of local money and not reliant on state/feds (savings), and so on and so on.

Also VA healthcare/military GI Bill/Tuition Assistance become not necessary so those are also huge savings in the defense budget right there because it would already by provided by the government.
 
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21stamps

Well-Known Member
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Property debt is different than medical, education,....

Paying off people's property debt would allow for more spending however it benefits mostly the property owner who can sell that property and pocket full profit.

Whereas education, the goal is the education received would go back to providing services to society such as someone going to law school becoming a lawyer or a law professor, someone going to business school opening a business which thus open up more job opportunities. Paying off that school debt allows them a great focus on financing other opportunities to better themselves such as purchasing an house, opening a business, saving for a pandemic at a younger age making them less reliant on Social Security and other government programs at an older age.

While I'm sure your tuition was lower than it is now...imagine where you would be, how much further you would be if you didn't have to deal with student debt.

Medical debt is the biggest cause of bankruptcy in the states which is why subsidized healthcare is important (last stat i saw said 66.5% of all bankruptcies in America stem from medical debt). That can happen to any and actually can deter everyone. Which is why it should be forgiven.

I’m sorry, but this doesn’t make sense.

“People should have savings for a year of a pandemic where they were forced to lose income from government mandates, and forced to spend more money on childcare, or leave a job, because their government closed schools.”

However, People don’t need savings to plan for medical and college expenses. One of which is fully optional. In this case it’s the government’s responsibility to pay off?
 

seascape

Well-Known Member
I paid off my student loans. My sister's paid off their loans too. Is it reasonable that those who paid off their debts are now asked to subsidize those that didn't pay the debts they signed for. How about those that worked during High School, saving money for college. Is it fair they subsidize others. How about the father who told Elizabeth Warren, he saved money for his children, didn't take WDW or Universal vacations so his children didn't have debts and he is now being asked to subsidize others. Elizabeth Warren said that was fair. That is cazy, if student loans are to be forgiven then go back and pay people back for the loans they paid and give parents that paid in full some money too.
 

Nubs70

Well-Known Member
Property debt is different than medical, education,....

Paying off people's property debt would allow for more spending however it benefits mostly the property owner who can sell that property and pocket full profit.

Whereas education, the goal is the education received would go back to providing services to society such as someone going to law school becoming a lawyer or a law professor, someone going to business school opening a business which thus open up more job opportunities. Paying off that school debt allows them a great focus on financing other opportunities to better themselves such as purchasing an house, opening a business, saving for a pandemic at a younger age making them less reliant on Social Security and other government programs at an older age.

While I'm sure your tuition was lower than it is now...imagine where you would be, how much further you would be if you didn't have to deal with student debt.

Medical debt is the biggest cause of bankruptcy in the states which is why subsidized healthcare is important (last stat i saw said 66.5% of all bankruptcies in America stem from medical debt). That can happen to any and actually can deter everyone. Which is why it should be forgiven.

High tide rises all ships. By pushing everyone up, wealth inequality goes down. When the levels of inequality of wealth go down, stats have suggested crime goes down. If crime goes down, law enforcement budgets go down (savings). Poverty goes down (savings as less money), less wealth inequality means the poor neighborhood finally gets influx of local money and not reliant on state/feds (savings), and so on and so on.

Also VA healthcare/military GI Bill/Tuition Assistance become not necessary so those are also huge savings in the defense budget right there because it would already by provided by the government.
Bankruptcy is forgiveness. Your debt is discharged, you owe nothing. Yes, you are of increased financial credit risk but you are not liable once the debt is cleared.
 

drizgirl

Well-Known Member
There is a HUGE difference between willingly taking on school debt with the amount disclosed, and suddenly losing income or having additional expenses due to forced government closures/restrictions.

Huge.
This should not even need to be explained.

ETA- Please tell me you do see the difference here.
If someone can't see the difference between using public money to pay people affected by government shutting down business, and using public money to pay of loans taken in good faith to pay for school, then I really don't have any hope for for meaningful conversation.

You honestly think it's just OK for the government to shut down business without financial assistance?

Sort of makes me wonder if anyone feeling this way might have loans of their own they're hoping to get paid off.
 
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drizgirl

Well-Known Member
The word "folly" was used. Other posts have been similarly dismissive in tone.
Not dismissive. Just realistic. College has gotten way too expensive for many families not to look at it any other way. If your family can afford to take on that large an expense without an eye toward the cost/benefit involved, then kudos to you. It's just not reality for many these day. If you think parents aren't looking at it this way in many homes, you're kidding yourself.

Or maybe it's a regional thing. Maybe parts of the country with higher average salaries, or different types of employment opportunities can more easily afford it. But around here, the potential earning capability of any given major is a big consideration for students.
 

21stamps

Well-Known Member
Not dismissive. Just realistic. College has gotten way too expensive for many families not to look at it any other way. If your family can afford to take on that large an expense without an eye toward the cost/benefit involved, then kudos to you. It's just not reality for many these day. If you think parents aren't looking at it this way in many homes, you're kidding yourself.

Or maybe it's a regional thing. Maybe parts of the country with higher average salaries, or different types of employment opportunities can more easily afford it. But around here, the potential earning capability of any given major is a big consideration for students.

Well, considering that poster flat out said that parents, who are paying for their kids’ college, shouldn’t get to decide against allowing a kid to choose a major with little return on what is being spent on the university of the child’s choice...instead using interests, data, and descriptions/career prospects to find a different direction where all can agree would be a good fit.

So, maybe some parents just don’t care what their kids decide, foot the bill anyway.. so we expect anyone to be able to take out any loan regardless of financial return, and then ask the public to pay it off. 🤷‍♀️

I don’t know. I’m confused by a lot these days.
 
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21stamps

Well-Known Member
If someone can't see the difference between using public money to pay people affected by government shutting down business, and using public money to pay of loans taken in good faith to pay for school, then I really don't have any hope for for meaningful conversation.

You honestly think it's just OK for the government to shut down business without financial assistance?

Sort of makes me wonder if anyone feeling this way might have loans of their own they're hoping to get paid off.

Apparently, all Americans are supposed to save for the government to shut down most of the economy and schools for a pandemic... but not save for medical expenses or college tuition.
Unless you’re low income, then you should get paid more than you were before, for a certain time period at least.

I’ll echo what I said above, I don’t understand anything anymore.
My Woke Handbook was lost in the mail.
 

LittleBuford

Well-Known Member
Not dismissive. Just realistic. College has gotten way too expensive for many families not to look at it any other way. If your family can afford to take on that large an expense without an eye toward the cost/benefit involved, then kudos to you. It's just not reality for many these day. If you think parents aren't looking at it this way in many homes, you're kidding yourself.

Or maybe it's a regional thing. Maybe parts of the country with higher average salaries, or different types of employment opportunities can more easily afford it. But around here, the potential earning capability of any given major is a big consideration for students.
"Folly" is a dismissive term.

 

drizgirl

Well-Known Member
"Folly" is a dismissive term.

I should have specified. In some cases it is folly. If you're taking out 80K in loans for a liberal arts degree with no plan to justify the expense, I classify that as folly.
 

21stamps

Well-Known Member
I should have specified. In some cases it is folly. If you're taking out 80K in loans for a liberal arts degree with no plan to justify the expense, I classify that as folly.
Which is literally what everyone has been saying in regards to those degrees and the amount of loans taken out for them.

Anyone, student or parent, can spend whatever they want on an education for any subject at any school. Just don’t expect other people to pay for it, the one’s who made decisions based on practicalities.
 

drizgirl

Well-Known Member
Then there are those who take out student loans and use them to cover other expenses besides tuition and books.
My friend's son did this. Lived a nice lifestyle in college. Had great spring break trips. He's been struggling ever since graduating as he pays off his loans. He's practically salivating at the thought that he could get a public bailout.
 

drizgirl

Well-Known Member
That assumes of course that you believe only the top 1% will have to pay for the program.

So here's my question. When we spend billions of dollars on cancelling student loan debt, are we going to then spend less on the other items on the agenda?

How many times are we going to go back to the same well?
Nobody want to answer my question? Anyone willing to give up some of the other platform initiatives in the name of student debt forgiveness? Maybe less money for climate change? Less money for health care?

And how many of you actually believe this will only hit people making over 400K?
 

kong1802

Well-Known Member
That assumes of course that you believe only the top 1% will have to pay for the program.

So here's my question. When we spend billions of dollars on cancelling student loan debt, are we going to then spend less on the other items on the agenda?

How many times are we going to go back to the same well?

I'm all for initiatives that help the middle class. I think cancelling student debt will help the middle class. It's a conversation worth having.

The top has done extremely well for decades. I'm not going to listen to those who had 100k tuitions paid for by their parents lecture the rest of us on responsibility. The middle needs help. These strawmen of "so and so bought a tv with their money" isn't helpful either. There is a real crisis that needs to be addressed. A solution needs to be found. We can't keep ignoring it or pretending that "personal responsibility" is the answer. I see that as a cop out to far too many problems. We are here now. Unless someone is planning on building a time machine to go back with the power of hind sight to assist each borrower, we need a real solution.

The reverse of your well question is the important one, IMO. How many times are we going to give tax breaks and pile onto the debt with no benefit to the middle?

I don't think all of the debt should be cancelled. There has to be a limit. Again, its a conversation worth having based off its merits, not based off talking points.
 

kong1802

Well-Known Member
Below is a pretty good overview of the situation:


One of the problems it highlights is For Profit colleges. Something I think that was championed by Betsy Devos......Go figure.....

Weird nothing about humanity degrees...
 

21stamps

Well-Known Member
I'm all for initiatives that help the middle class. I think cancelling student debt will help the middle class. It's a conversation worth having.

The top has done extremely well for decades. I'm not going to listen to those who had 100k tuitions paid for by their parents lecture the rest of us on responsibility. The middle needs help. These strawmen of "so and so bought a tv with their money" isn't helpful either. There is a real crisis that needs to be addressed. A solution needs to be found. We can't keep ignoring it or pretending that "personal responsibility" is the answer. I see that as a cop out to far too many problems. We are here now. Unless someone is planning on building a time machine to go back with the power of hind sight to assist each borrower, we need a real solution.

The reverse of your well question is the important one, IMO. How many times are we going to give tax breaks and pile onto the debt with no benefit to the middle?

I don't think all of the debt should be cancelled. There has to be a limit. Again, its a conversation worth having based off its merits, not based off talking points.

You understand that the parents in your rant, are mostly those who give up things to be able to finance their kids’ education, right?
We all make choices, some choose to save to help their kids not take on so much student debt.
Some kids take on the debt and work hard to pay it off.

Both require planning and choosing to do so.
You’re asking for those people to give a handout for someone else who didn’t live a life planning for the future, but wants everything the same as those who did.
 

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