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Unites States National Debt - How Much And What For

kong1802

Well-Known Member

drizgirl

Well-Known Member
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Anybody talking about pandemic relief for struggling families? Just curious. Why the hell are we even talking about loan forgiveness before we take care of people struggling because the government shut businesses down? And I’m not talking about the we here. I’m talking about we as a country. Our incoming new administration. Our current elected officials.
 

kong1802

Well-Known Member
Anybody talking about pandemic relief for struggling families? Just curious. Why the hell are we even talking about loan forgiveness before we take care of people struggling because the government shut businesses down? And I’m not talking about the we here. I’m talking about we as a country. Our incoming new administration. Our current elected officials.

That's a valid point.


I'd be all for just letting the Repubs "win" this round and only give out 500 bill in assistance vs the $2 trillion.

As the article points out, speed is pretty important right now. We can do more if needed, but gotta get help out there now.
 

LittleBuford

Well-Known Member
There’s probably more, but the under current I get from your statements seem to be questioning why wouldn’t a liberal arts degree be valid. I think that’s the wrong way to look at it. I asked the question I did because in the business world (granted I only have my own company for direct reference) hiring us not generally looking for those degrees. It’s usually very specific as to role, and from what I see not a lot of call for say Liberal Arts.

So in a way as respectfully as I can, I would say that given your experience is academia that you might not have a good grasp of what companies may be looking for when it comes to degrees, no?
It’s not an undercurrent; it’s exactly what I’m saying. And no, I don’t have a good grasp of what companies in the business world are looking for, because that isn’t the world that my students generally go into (though some do), nor is it a world that my own research and teaching directly speak to (though broadly applicable skills such as communication and critical thinking are central to the humanities). I’m still not sure why you’re treading so carefully. Why would I take offence at something that I myself would never deny?

My overall point is really very simple. There are many kinds of qualifications out there, just as there are many kinds of jobs and career paths. I respect all of these as valid and worthwhile: let me mention again that my parents are business people who left school at 16; I am the only academic in my family. Young people should think long and hard before embarking on any kind of further education, looking into the pros and cons (particularly with regard to employment prospects) and consulting with their parents and other mentors. Ultimately, however, they must choose what feels right for them.

If I didn’t believe in the validity of the humanities, I wouldn’t be doing what I’m doing. If the humanities weren’t capable of setting people up for successful careers, my job wouldn’t exist in the first place. There are many paths to financial and personal happiness, and I will continue to do all I can to help those students who decide to pursue their goals by way of my courses.
 
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Laketravis

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
Anybody talking about pandemic relief for struggling families? Just curious. Why the hell are we even talking about loan forgiveness before we take care of people struggling because the government shut businesses down? And I’m not talking about the we here. I’m talking about we as a country. Our incoming new administration. Our current elected officials.

I'm not hearing as loud of a discussion as I think there should be.

It may be due to the concern over how the artificial jump-start can actually cause longer term damage. The infusion of trillions of new government money into the economy Q2 created an almost false sense of euphoria inside the bubble of a pandemic.

Losing one's job but realizing more cashflow then when they were working.

Obtaining mortgage forbearance or not having to pay rent for the better part of a year.

Refinancing existing mortgages at ridiculously low interest rates and cashing out large amounts of equity.

The proceeds just from the above didn't just trickle, they ZOOMED thru the economy at high velocity.

So why no discussion now about additional relief? It may actually be premature, because I don't think we are anywhere near the bottom of economic disaster.
 

drizgirl

Well-Known Member
I'm not hearing as loud of a discussion as I think there should be.

It may be due to the concern over how the artificial jump-start can actually cause longer term damage. The infusion of trillions of new government money into the economy Q2 created an almost false sense of euphoria inside the bubble of a pandemic.

Losing one's job but realizing more cashflow then when they were working.

Obtaining mortgage forbearance or not having to pay rent for the better part of a year.

Refinancing existing mortgages at ridiculously low interest rates and cashing out large amounts of equity.

The proceeds just from the above didn't just trickle, they ZOOMED thru the economy at high velocity.

So why no discussion now about additional relief? It may actually be premature, because I don't think we are anywhere near the bottom of economic disaster.
I think the people earning more money than when they were employed ended a while back, maybe the end of July?

And people can't refinance a home without an income, so the ones taking advantage of low interest rates are not the ones without jobs.

I'm not talking about fixing things on a macro level right now. It could be that there's enough going on that will see it through. I'm talking about fixing things on a micro level, taking care of the people who have lost jobs, not through any fault of their own, but because the government shut things down. The people who lost jobs. The people who lost businesses. In some states, what one gets for unemployment won't even cover the cost of buying health insurance. Nobody seems in any sort of hurry to fix any of it. It's ridiculous that it's been 8 months since anything was passed.
 

Laketravis

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
I think the people earning more money than when they were employed ended a while back, maybe the end of July?

It did, and extended benefits are scheduled to run out at the end of the year. A dark aspect of many Covid layoffs is that some employers took advantage of the situation and laid off employees they wanted to terminate for other reasons but could now do so "due to Covid" - a reason not questioned by many state unemployment agencies so unemployment benefits were approved. However, many potential employers now see "Laid off due to Covid" as a sort of scarlet letter.

And people can't refinance a home without an income, so the ones taking advantage of low interest rates are not the ones without jobs.

Correct. But there are literally millions of homeowners who have done cash-out refi's this year, liquifying their equity and in many cases spending it (another short lived jolt to the economy) and are now left with much higher mortgage balances. This could be problematic if/when home prices see a downward correction and many homeowners are then upside down with their mortgages, leading to short sales.

I'm not talking about fixing things on a macro level right now. It could be that there's enough going on that will see it through. I'm talking about fixing things on a micro level, taking care of the people who have lost jobs, not through any fault of their own, but because the government shut things down. The people who lost jobs. The people who lost businesses. In some states, what one gets for unemployment won't even cover the cost of buying health insurance. Nobody seems in any sort of hurry to fix any of it. It's ridiculous that it's been 8 months since anything was passed.

Agreed. So where is Biden's plan for this? (as you originally asked). I haven't seen it.
 

21stamps

Well-Known Member
I think the people earning more money than when they were employed ended a while back, maybe the end of July?

And people can't refinance a home without an income, so the ones taking advantage of low interest rates are not the ones without jobs.

I'm not talking about fixing things on a macro level right now. It could be that there's enough going on that will see it through. I'm talking about fixing things on a micro level, taking care of the people who have lost jobs, not through any fault of their own, but because the government shut things down. The people who lost jobs. The people who lost businesses. In some states, what one gets for unemployment won't even cover the cost of buying health insurance. Nobody seems in any sort of hurry to fix any of it. It's ridiculous that it's been 8 months since anything was passed.

This is the most head scratching part. The lack of attention to it from both the politicians and the public.

#cancelstudentdebt should have nothing to do with pandemic relief for problems caused by government mandated orders.
 

21stamps

Well-Known Member
If I didn’t believe in the validity of the humanities, I wouldn’t be doing what I’m doing. If the humanities weren’t capable of setting people up for successful careers, my job wouldn’t exist in the first place. There are many paths to financial and personal happiness, and I will continue to do all I can to help those students who decide to pursue their goals by way of my courses.
No one, that I have seen, is saying those degrees shouldn’t exist.
People are saying (repeatedly), from what I’ve seen, that someone should be cautious about the amount of debt they take on when looking at income norms in their field.
 

drizgirl

Well-Known Member

We've pushed the middle class money to the top.

I know this sounds Bernie-like, but I wont cry for them if they have to give it back in terms of student loan forgiveness.
That assumes of course that you believe only the top 1% will have to pay for the program.

So here's my question. When we spend billions of dollars on cancelling student loan debt, are we going to then spend less on the other items on the agenda?

How many times are we going to go back to the same well?
 

LittleBuford

Well-Known Member
No one, that I have seen, is saying those degrees shouldn’t exist.
True, but a number of posters have characterised them as frivolous and a waste of time and money.

People are saying (repeatedly), from what I’ve seen, that someone should be cautious about the amount of debt they take on when looking at income norms in their field.
Of course. Who here has or would disagree with that?
 

21stamps

Well-Known Member
True, but a number of posters have characterised them as frivolous and a waste of time and money.


Of course. Who here has or would disagree with that?

Depends how much money. If you want to attend a school with tuition of $50k per year, probably not the best choice if you are taking out loans to cover the amount.
 

Laketravis

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
Depends how much money. If you want to attend a school with tuition of $50k per year, probably not the best choice if you are taking out loans to cover the amount.

Then there are those who take out student loans and use them to cover other expenses besides tuition and books.
 

Quinnmac000

Well-Known Member
Anybody talking about pandemic relief for struggling families? Just curious. Why the hell are we even talking about loan forgiveness before we take care of people struggling because the government shut businesses down? And I’m not talking about the we here. I’m talking about we as a country. Our incoming new administration. Our current elected officials.

Just like you don't want to pay for other's people's college...why should I give my hard tax dollars because you (not you generally) didn't properly have a savings account?

Thats why these arguments about fairness are stupid.

Someone in Minnesota doesn't deal with natural disasters such wildfires or hurricanes yet their tax dollars goes to pay for those suffering in other areas when it does happen.

Subsidized healthcare, education, etc benefits everyone.
 

21stamps

Well-Known Member
Just like you don't want to pay for other's people's college...why should I give my hard tax dollars because you (not you generally) didn't properly have a savings account?

Thats why these arguments about fairness are stupid.

Someone in Minnesota doesn't deal with natural disasters such wildfires or hurricanes yet their tax dollars goes to pay for those suffering in other areas when it does happen.

There is a HUGE difference between willingly taking on school debt with the amount disclosed, and suddenly losing income or having additional expenses due to forced government closures/restrictions.

Huge.
This should not even need to be explained.

ETA- Please tell me you do see the difference here.
 
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