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The Redhead is changing....

Daveeeeed

Well-Known Member
What if it was black people being auctioned off? Would it be "harmless" and "comedy"

I'm sorry I can't see how slightly revising a scene where women are literally in chains being sold is a bad thing

I know which version I would prefer my kids see
Gender is far different than race. And plus if there was a role reversal I don't think it's offensive or inappropriate.
Sure that's a good point you're making, but it doesn't really call for a scene that's not offensive to be changed. And what they're doing to fix it? Promoting little girls to wield riffles -- that fixes everything. Like other people have mentioned it is probably more related to future profit than anything, which is also an issue. People have different opinions on what's offensive, but the general consensus it that it's not. And that's part of the problem as it's catering for a very small minority. It's not like most of a certain ethnic group are against it, it's more of a minority of all people, so there's not reason to change it to suit them when it's a classic scene.
 

spacemt354

Chili's
Better message? I don't know. How about it just doesn't show women in chains being sold?

Question for you...what about this scene makes it so important to the ride?
Yes, but it's okay for the woman to now contribute to the overall crimes portrayed in the attraction, wielding a rifle while doing it. Much better message, right? Oh..wait...

The scene is not important to me to the overall scope of the attraction. Although as a red head the 'we wants the red head' line has been a staple of the attraction for me.

Changing it for the sake of a more G-rated attraction...do what you need to do. But this change doesn't actually make the attraction more G-rated, only in the eyes of those who blindly focus on social justice rather than the overall scope. There are still drunken pirates, mayors being drowned, guns, death, and a town burned down. But as long as the red head is a pirate with them, it's all okay.
 

Sonic Sunglasses

Well-Known Member
(sigh) OK. What about this? The Redhead is secretly in cahoots with Jack Sparrow and has organized a phony auction in an effort to fool both Barbossa's crew and the town folk into surrendering both the town's loot AND the pirates gold. Soon after, she absconds with all of the loot and gold and joins Jack Sparrow in the treasure room where they perform a duet of "A Pirates Life For Me". I realize that this is slightly less convoluted than the plots of most of the POTC films, but it might patch some of the plot holes in the attraction. Maybe.
I rather like it! It's a good a solution as any, and we get double the redhead.
 

Bocabear

Well-Known Member
There was a Marc Davis sketch for an unbuilt scene in which we see two helpless young girls luring the pirates...and then as we pass around the rock we see the pirates laid out with swords through them, and the young girls enjoying their pirate loot...That would be empowering for women .
 

newhorizons1

Well-Known Member
What about this new version is 'better'? What better message does it send to kids? Both scene versions and themes of the attraction are depicting pirate crimes.
Yep. It is going from a scene where women are being forced to do things against their will by men to a woman forcing others to do things against their will. I don't particularly enjoy the thought of my things being looted and having to stand there and watch them be sold. In the words of Bobby Hill, "That's my purse! I don't know you!"

The change of the scene saddens me. If it is simply to add in a female character to up sales of merchandise, there are better ways to go about it. Still Disney is a company out to make profit. I can't blame a business for acting like a business. If it is PC nonsense, we will never be at a place where someone isn't being offended by something.
 

Lets Respect

Well-Known Member
Gender is far different than race. And plus if there was a role reversal I don't think it's offensive or inappropriate.
Sure that's a good point you're making, but it doesn't really call for a scene that's not offensive to be changed. And what they're doing to fix it? Promoting little girls to wield riffles -- that fixes everything. Like other people have mentioned it is probably more related to future profit than anything, which is also an issue. People have different opinions on what's offensive, but the general consensus it that it's not. And that's part of the problem as it's catering for a very small minority. It's not like most of a certain ethnic group are against it, it's more of a minority of all people, so there's not reason to change it to suit them when it's a classic scene.
Why is gender different than race?

The scene at its worst is offensive. At the minimum, it's outdated. It wouldn't be constructed like that today.
 

Casper Gutman

Well-Known Member
There was a Marc Davis sketch for an unbuilt scene in which we see two helpless young girls luring the pirates...and then as we pass around the rock we see the pirates laid out with swords through them, and the young girls enjoying their pirate loot...That would be empowering for women .
This! add a funny new scene like this!
 

Casper Gutman

Well-Known Member
The new version conveys gender equality.

The "pirate crimes" that will be left are not problematic because they do not have a social injustice component.
I don't know that this is true, and it's one of the reasons this change is tricky.

Historically, pirates were rapists. The implication is inherent within every figure in the ride. The whole thing is a humorous look at a group renowned for committing sexual assault - the auction scene is simply the one in which that aspect comes nearest to the textual surface. Heck, the beloved theme song even notes that they "kidnap and ravage."

As long as you have a ride celebrating pirates, that aspect will be present. It makes inserting a meaningful message of "gender equality" that doesn't dishonestly sanitize the subject very difficult, if not impossible.

Again, this is not necessarily an argument against removing the scene, but it is one against the simplistic approach WDW seems to be taking.
 

Sonic Sunglasses

Well-Known Member
There was a Marc Davis sketch for an unbuilt scene in which we see two helpless young girls luring the pirates...and then as we pass around the rock we see the pirates laid out with swords through them, and the young girls enjoying their pirate loot...That would be empowering for women .
When did they do the luring? Those pirates are long dead, hence the piles of bones. Given the clearly present shovel, they did a significant amount of finding and no luring at all.
 

Bairstow

Well-Known Member
I don't know that this is true, and it's one of the reasons this change is tricky.

Historically, pirates were rapists. The implication is inherent within every figure in the ride. The whole thing is a humorous look at a group renowned for committing sexual assault - the auction scene is simply the one in which that aspect comes nearest to the textual surface. Heck, the beloved theme song even notes that they "kidnap and ravage."

As long as you have a ride celebrating pirates, that aspect will be present. It makes inserting a meaningful message of "gender equality" that doesn't dishonestly sanitize the subject very difficult, if not impossible.

Again, this is not necessarily an argument against removing the scene, but it is one against the simplistic approach WDW seems to be taking.
Aren't these magical ghost pirates now?
I don't see how attention to historical details is of much relevancy at this point as are tie-ins to the films. Even so, as others have pointed out, there are multiple examples of female pirates who fought alongside men.

Given the current cultural srance on social justice, the thinking is that it would be better to close the ride altogether than to have one that humourously celebrates the rape component.
 

jaklgreen

Well-Known Member
What if it was black people being auctioned off? Would it be "harmless" and "comedy"

I'm sorry I can't see how slightly revising a scene where women are literally in chains being sold is a bad thing

I know which version I would prefer my kids see
This is exactly how I feel. If it is not big deal to auction off people, then change them to all black, after all that would be more historically accurate. But that's bad, right? It's Ok the way it is because they are just a bunch of white women. This part of the ride has always bothered me and more so when I had daughters. But the social norm in the country is that hey, it's all in good fun. Plus hey, look at that hot red head, she wants it. This totally plays into the male fantasy. Children do not understand the true horror this implies so it's kind of just been taken as tongue in cheek fun. But why should it? How is this any different then if it was African slaves up there? Frankly what bothers me is how many people are NOT bothered by this scene. I think in this day and age, making a parody of this kind of atrocity is in very poor taste, especially at a theme park.
 

MrPromey

Well-Known Member
Why is gender different than race?
Because race, specifically in the United States where this attraction is located, is still a very hot-button sensitive issue. It isn't in all parts of the world which is why you see commercials and advertisements that people here find horribly offensive from certain parts of Europe and Asia that nobody over there seems offended by.

There is a certain segment of the US population for which things like this scene are grossly offensive and I in no way mean to discount those people but I do not think it is the country at large or the scene would never have gone live and have lasted so long in the first place.

I would be curious to know how many women getting off the ride would find this scene offensive to them personally, prior to a big discussion on the topic that forces them to think about it in far greater detail than anything in that ride was meant to be considered?

Contrast that with black slaves. I'm pretty sure just about every African American would be offended by that.

Not making light of your stance or disregarding that some people are genuinely disturbed but I don't think the comparison is even close.

The scene at its worst is offensive. At the minimum, it's outdated. It wouldn't be constructed like that today.
This ride would not have been made, today.

At one time, alcoholism was a punchline - even in cartoons. Today, we would have no drunk pirate sleeping with pigs or another drunk pirate trying to give rum to cats.

The scene towards the beginning with the well, if it were to be made at all, probably wouldn't have them drowning/torturing someone. If anything, the pirates would maybe be trying to pull the guy out of the well after he jumped down to hide from them with a key to a safe or something.

There is nothing in modern society that is funny about terrorism or burning down a town, either. That scene would maybe be a celebration after the pirates - I don't know - liberate the village?

I get what you're saying and I'm not necessarily arguing for the wife sale scene to remain but I think these statements to defend your position in this post are pretty weak.

Anyone who puts the kind of thought you're putting into the auction scene to the whole ride will find there is nothing particularly light-hearted, funny, or fun being depicted At all. (except maybe the three pirates singing with the donkey. They don't seem to be up to no good at that moment and the donkey appears to be enjoying the company)

I think the original intent was for nobody to think that hard about any of it and that appears to be the point that people arguing against you are trying to make.

I assume your statement about current thinking being that it should be closed was sarcasm but maybe it's true. Maybe it's time to let all those tortured animatronic souls free.

That's a pretty big show building. What else could go in there?
 
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