The fallacy of overcrowded parks......

[xdan0920]

I’ll also point out attendance figures equals total guests admitted in one day. It doesn’t equate to how many in the park at the same time. The amount in park at any one time can be surprisingly low.

That’s what I was driving at. It seems the easy and common defense of these after hours events is that the parks can’t handle the crowds so therefore after hours is the solution. The parks CAN ha dale the crowds though.

I dont care what the official or unofficial numbers are, or what crowding may be artificially manufactured by Disney. All I care about is getting enough things done in a park day so it feels like I accomplished something.

I care. If the crowding is simply numbers, that’s not something that can be solved. If it’s TDO constantly reducing operating hours and operating capacity, that can be fixed and is something that needs to be pointed out.

I see rides running at 50% capacity constantly.

My last trip I saw this consistently as well. 45 minute waits which in turn lead to crowded walkways since guests roam from attraction to attraction looking for a decent wait. Meanwhile the attractions that have the 45 minute waits could easily up the capacity and reduce waits and crowds.

 

[xdan0920]

The park is simply not adequately staffed for the crowds it receives.

I agree completely. On an average day, the staffing levels are cut down to make the park feel like a busy day. Which of course leads to the inevitable solution of reselling the park for more money to slightly less people at night. And people will yell from the rooftops how worth it, it is.

 

[HoustonHorn]

I gotta ask when are you there when rides are at 50% capacity?

I don't want to speak for @The_Jobu, but you can see it with rides with 2+ ride vehicles (can't think of the proper term right now). In my trips in November 18 and August 19, A.S.S./Dumbo/Space Mountain have been often running just one side. To me, that is "running at 50% capacity." If they used both sides, the lines would be shorter. But by only running one side, they are able to reduce staff, and that artificially inflates waiting times for guests while saving the company money on staffing.

 

[Animaniac93-98]

I agree completely. On an average day, the staffing levels are cut down to make the park feel like a busy day. Which of course leads to the inevitable solution of reselling the park for more money to slightly less people at night.

Or in the morning, where for the low, low price of $89 + tax a head you can skip the line on Peter Pan's Flight.

Too bad some of that extra $$ isn't going towards, say, updating that particular 50 year old ride.

 

[Victor Kelly]

I agree completely. On an average day, the staffing levels are cut down to make the park feel like a busy day. Which of course leads to the inevitable solution of reselling the park for more money to slightly less people at night. And people will yell from the rooftops how worth it, it is.

That happened when they started doing the after hours pay for EMH thing. At first it was hooray not that crowded and worth the $100 price tag. Now I hear it is way more crowded. And the parties I hear are at capacity and wait times rival normal hours wait times.

I will state this, I believe EMH is going to be turned into a pay to play deal soon. It is obvious that Disney tested the waters and they know people will pay for early entry and to stay later.

FP+ will go to pay to play as well. And yes, people will pay for it. Which may actually decrease wait times because the ratio will hopefully flip.

 

[GSP Guy]

Legitimate question....On the MDE app it shows mostly low wait times today at least in comparison to other times of the year. In reading all the comments it would seem that it's insanely crowded all the time. So is today an anomaly or is Disney simply being dishonest with the posted wait times? Anybody visiting the parks today?

 

[flynnibus]

Legitimate question....On the MDE app it shows mostly low wait times today at least in comparison to other times of the year. In reading all the comments it would seem that it's insanely crowded all the time. So is today an anomaly or is Disney simply being dishonest with the posted wait times? Anybody visiting the parks today?

These few days are specifically a low period. There are a few pockets left like this, but instead of full seasons like this, it's more like isolated pockets. Are you genuiely challenging people's generational of 'all the time' to nitpick isolated few days?

The # of weeks that are quiet time now are an endangered species.

 

[thomas998]

Forgive me some rambling thoughts dear reader....

I have been beating the drum against after hours and before hours and halloween parties and christmas parties and blah blah blah for quite a while now. Disney is working to sell the park multiples times a day, all under the guise of guest demand as it relates to over-crowding. So, it got me thinking....

Are the parks REALLY over crowded? There seems to be an argument that WDW, and more specifically MK was never designed to hold this many guests. But what does that mean exactly? Over the past 20 years, MK attendance has increased by 5 million clicks a year. Does that # include parties? @marni1971 @wdwmagic @lentesta

Let's say it doesn't include party guests, for arguments sake. Because if it does include parties, then the MK attendence growth is a clear and inarguable fallacy. Attendance hasn't grown significantly in this case. They are just getting secondary clicks constantly, so it looks like attendance growth.

So back to the point....

MK 20 years ago averaged 41,000 guests a day. Now it averages 54,000 guests a day. An increase of 13,000. A significant increase to be sure, but nowhere near capacity. So where does the argument come from that the park can't handle this many guests?

It seems to me, that the busiest days have always felt busy. The big difference now is that the average days feel the same as a busy day. Is it the extra guests? or is it Disney's optimized staffing? Next time you are in the MK on what should be a normal day but feels wall to wall look around a bit. You'll see only one side of Space and Thunder operating. You'll see shuttered restaurants, and restaurants with half the registers closed. You'll see garbage in the queues and on the floor, and no custodial staff in site. You might see that the MK closes at 6p for 4 out of 7 days a week, thereby increasing guest count on non-party days. The parks aren't over crowded, they are under-utilized.

I propose that the parks CAN handles today's guest load, Disney simply doesn't care to operate at full capacity. And why should they when people will simply pay double for an after hours party where it feels slightly less crowded.

You also have to look at useable space today versus 20 years ago. The foot print of MK remains the same but they have made changes within that same space that removes usable space for guests. Now factor in the areas consumed for stroller parking and even if the total number of guest was the same it would still seem more crowded to the guests.

And now you can throw in the reduced staff and evil fastpass+ and it just gets worse. It isn't going to get any better until we have a big recession and the number going gets cut by 25 or 30 percent.

 

[thomas998]

That’s what I was driving at. It seems the easy and common defense of these after hours events is that the parks can’t handle the crowds so therefore after hours is the solution. The parks CAN ha dale the crowds though.

I care. If the crowding is simply numbers, that’s not something that can be solved. If it’s TDO constantly reducing operating hours and operating capacity, that can be fixed and is something that needs to be pointed out.

My last trip I saw this consistently as well. 45 minute waits which in turn lead to crowded walkways since guests roam from attraction to attraction looking for a decent wait. Meanwhile the attractions that have the 45 minute waits could easily up the capacity and reduce waits and crowds.

But you wont buy mouse ears or overpriced water in a queue. I think they try to get you to just wander around and would be happy if everyone just walked from kiosk to kiosk and shop to shop never riding anything.

 

[GSP Guy]

These few days are specifically a low period. There are a few pockets left like this, but instead of full seasons like this, it's more like isolated pockets. Are you genuiely challenging people's generational of 'all the time' to nitpick isolated few days?

The # of weeks that are quiet time now are an endangered species.

Sorry I didn't realize you had a reading disability> I specifically stated "Legitimate question," I have a trip beginning next week and was reading about to

These few days are specifically a low period. There are a few pockets left like this, but instead of full seasons like this, it's more like isolated pockets. Are you genuiely challenging people's generational of 'all the time' to nitpick isolated few days?

The # of weeks that are quiet time now are an endangered species.

LOL give me a break sunshine I wasn't challenging anyone! I usually just lurk and read on here so don't go overcompensating through a computer screen. I have a trip beginning next week and was reading the previous comments regarding the crowds so was asking as I stated a "legitimate question." I don't "challenge" via the internet because there's not really a point to it.

 

[Animaniac93-98]

Legitimate question....On the MDE app it shows mostly low wait times today at least in comparison to other times of the year.

Tonight is a MNSSHP night at MK. Crowds on party days tend to be lower because the park closes to day guests at 6:00pm.

 

[flynnibus]

Sorry I didn't realize you had a reading disability> I specifically stated "Legitimate question," I have a trip beginning next week and was reading about to

There are numerous crowd calendar projections out there if you want to see what crowds are projected to be, and include (like touring plans) hindsight to see how observed crowds were verse predicted. Spend $8 and review if you have a serious interest. It's like buying a snack at Disney but will payoff for your whole trip

 

[GSP Guy]

Tonight is a MNSSHP night at MK. Crowds on party days tend to be lower because the park closes to day guests at 6:00pm.

Thank you

 

[Disneyfreak Jen]

In addition to what has already been mentioned, there are two things that come to my mind...strollers and larger people.

The amount of strollers has increased in the parks over the last 20, 30, 40 years, in addition to people being larger than they were 20, 30, 40 years ago.
Those things can make the park feel more congested too.

 

[Mickeyboof]

Walt Disney World is a scam. I wish it weren’t. I’ve heard lovely stories about when it wasn’t. And maybe it won’t be in the future. But right now, it’s an all American scam.

 

[DuckTalesWooHoo1987]

The real deal about the crowd complaints are because people like me and the rest of us around here that have went multiple times per year for years know by our own experience that the parks are just not as empty as they used to be. We know that we used to have very minimal waits for even Space Mountain in the middle of the day and we know that during EMH you could literally walk through certain parts of the park and not see another human being for a span of minutes. We remember those days and we compare them to now and wish they would return. Sadly, I don't believe they will. Disney keeps throwing up hotel after hotel to draw more people in but then where are they gonna go when they get there? Oh, I know where! The parks. Then Disney is gonna say "Oh man we had no idea this many people wanted to come here!" Sorta the way UPS tells me everyday "Oh we didn't realize we were gonna have THIS much volume! We thought that Amazon was a little business with a cult following and didn't realize that people use it every DAY!" LOL!

 

[eliza61nyc]

Walt Disney World is a scam. I wish it weren’t. I’ve heard lovely stories about when it wasn’t. And maybe it won’t be in the future. But right now, it’s an all American scam.

l, wow that's harsh

 

[the.dreamfinder]

l, wow that's harsh

I mean if you want to fund stock buybacks and the acquisition of 21st Century Fox, WDW is THE place to vacation.

 

[the.dreamfinder]

Also, Fastpass, yes, even OG FP, is bad because it fills the thoroughfares with guests that would otherwise be in lines, used to be considered an “attraction”, and has done more to damage the Disney theme park experience than the IP/Franchise stuff by eliminating nuance, focus and absorption of themed spaces in favor of amusement park style commando touring behaviors.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

This is a fantastic thread.

The park is simply not adequately staffed for the crowds it receives.

This is one of the big differences between Tokyo Disneyland, which is similar to MK in layout and attraction mix, and the WDW equivalent. Except you're also paying more for this inferior experience in Florida, even compared to just a few years ago.

As the crowds have risen...their comparative desire to add attractions to spread out those crowds has dropped a lot. They don’t reinvested nearly what they once did. They just take a lot longer and the bills are much higher. That’s all intentional.

It’s more than the staffing...they are running aging Parks without enough refreshes/things to do.

Capacity design for a theme park is a little counterintuitive. The park is designed for a design day attendance that is greater than average daily attendance but lower than peak attendance. With the design day, the park is designed to a certain hourly by determining how much the park wants people waiting with the metric of attractions per guest per hour, with the standard park aiming for 1.5 - 2. Disney has effectively bucked both of these standards by better distributing visitation throughout the year and therefore more closely aligning the average day to the Design day and pushing down the expected attractions per guest per hour below 1. Disney wants a guest visiting for 10 - 12 hours only doing about 8 experiences (a definition broader than attraction). Disney constrains capacity to maintain the image of crowding and the expectation of low attractions per guest per hour, but it would not be sufficient to get them back to a that guest friendly range of 1.5 - 2.

Walt Disney Imagineering’s ridiculous costs only exacerbate the problem. Even if the desire was there, it wouldn’t make any financial sense to add capacity. Over $1 billion later and the Disney’s Hollywood Studios of 2020 won’t have made a significant leap in hourly capacity. The new Epcot is heading for a similar result of billions spent and less vacant space because it was demolished, not actually filled.

Disney is not facing the strain of insufficient capacity and increasingly worse returns on investment, but it’ll somehow be fixed by people with interest in or experience with fixed amusements.

This is fantastic...my sword is yours 🗡🛡

CMs on here have said before its a struggle to get hours because they keep them all to the bare minimum. They also said they send CMs home if the day isn't as busy as they expected.

Magic bands...plain and simple. They don’t tag the sharks to NOT see where they are going to be