The Death of Orlando High Speed Rail

Wilt Dasney

Well-Known Member
Deader than disco. The idea of a regional transit authority working with Amtrak is interesting, but seems unlikely since Amtrak doesn't currently feature high speed rail.

That money's going to California. I won't say it's DEFINITE, but I think it's a pretty good guess at this point. :lol: :cool:
 

geubux

Member
Shucks! And I was just thinking how we could use another government project that would require the annual investment of billions of dollars....money that us peons could waste on vacations.
 
This is impossible. It was announced right here in this forum that Orlando High Speed Rail was a "definite". :lol:

All kidding aside, there was a lengthy thread about it here.

I'm posting just so I can comment that I appreciate the juxtaposition of this thread and that thread. The other thread is very "internet" (ie, rumors, opinions, conjectures laid out as fact) and this thread is the polar opposite in that it is reality and real world facts.

Grain of salt folks, grain of salt.
 

flavious27

Well-Known Member
This should have been a line from jacksonville to wdw, so it could have been connected to the other proposed high speed rail in the east coast and southeast.
 

mp2bill

Well-Known Member
Shucks! And I was just thinking how we could use another government project that would require the annual investment of billions of dollars....money that us peons could waste on vacations.

Geubux, don't get it twisted. The cost to you for this project couldn't pay for 1/10th a vacation. Also, the idea behind projects like this is to increase efficiency, create thousands of jobs, and create competition for the airline industry, thus bringing down the price of long distance transportation. This creates more wealth for everybody.

pfffft... HS rail wasn't going to do me any good - I live in MI :).

isn't Detroit getting a spur from chicago?

Flavious, you're right. Here are two articles.
http://fastlane.dot.gov/2010/05/first-round-of-high-speed-rail-funds-flowing-to-states.html
http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/...rail-grants-bringing-good-news-to-california/
The plan is to replace regular commuter rail services with high speed rail that's readily available to 80% of the U.S. population by 2035. What was supposed to be in FL was only the 1st round of high speed rail systems in the U.S. (Orlando, Los Angeles, New York, Chicago).
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
isn't Detroit getting a spur from chicago?
Yes, but the "Chicago Hub Network" had no high speed rail connections to any of the other envisioned high speed rail corridors. You would have to take an "Other Passenger Rail Route" onto the East Coast System, the another "Other Passenger Rail Route" to Orlando. The "national network" is mostly isolated networks and corridors.
 

TP2000

Well-Known Member
Yes, but the "Chicago Hub Network" had no high speed rail connections to any of the other envisioned high speed rail corridors. You would have to take an "Other Passenger Rail Route" onto the East Coast System, the another "Other Passenger Rail Route" to Orlando. The "national network" is mostly isolated networks and corridors.


Yeah, who ever said anything about building a connected national network of high-speed trains across an entire continent? It's not 1885, it's 2011.

If you need to go more than 250 miles, you should fly.

Even at 200MPH, all those trains would take triple or quadruple (or more) the amount of time it takes to fly from Chicago to Orlando. Not to mention the cost.

It's interesting that Disney has not said one single word about the death of high-speed rail in their own backyard, and on their own property. Disney appeared to be very, very weak supporters of this whole plan, and are probably relieved to see it die.

.
 

Cosmic Commando

Well-Known Member
It's interesting that Disney has not said one single word about the death of high-speed rail in their own backyard, and on their own property. Disney appeared to be very, very weak supporters of this whole plan, and are probably relieved to see it die.

.

I think Disney knew that it was a longshot until it was actually carrying passengers. Either it would never open or it would take 20 years and Disney could pull the land they offered for the station at some point saying that the project was taking too long and no longer fit their land use plans.

I know HS was a sparkly now toy, but if you took HS rail from MCO to Disney property, you would still need to transfer to get to your hotel. No big loss, IMO.
 

TP2000

Well-Known Member
I know HS was a sparkly now toy, but if you took HS rail from MCO to Disney property, you would still need to transfer to get to your hotel. No big loss, IMO.

Not to mention that in the short 20 mile hop from MCO to WDW, with at least one stop in between at the convention center, an expensive high speed rail system couldn't get going beyond the 75 MPH that a far cheaper conventional rail system could travel for a tiny fraction of the price. :rolleyes:

The whole thing would take longer than Magical Express does picking you up outside your specific terminal, and may not even save time over picking up a rental car and driving over to your Disney hotel on the Beeline Expressway.
 

flavious27

Well-Known Member
Yes, but the "Chicago Hub Network" had no high speed rail connections to any of the other envisioned high speed rail corridors. You would have to take an "Other Passenger Rail Route" onto the East Coast System, the another "Other Passenger Rail Route" to Orlando. The "national network" is mostly isolated networks and corridors.

There is the missing link between cleveland west and east of about 125 miles, but if they get lines built out to either city and link could be built.
 

jt04

Well-Known Member
Not to mention that in the short 20 mile hop from MCO to WDW, with at least one stop in between at the convention center, an expensive high speed rail system couldn't get going beyond the 75 MPH that a far cheaper conventional rail system could travel for a tiny fraction of the price. :rolleyes:

The whole thing would take longer than Magical Express does picking you up outside your specific terminal, and may not even save time over picking up a rental car and driving over to your Disney hotel on the Beeline Expressway.

Same empty arguments I refutted time after time. Remember this segment was being built with the idea of an eventual Orlando to Miami link being added. This was only a first step in the process. But alas, HSR will be obsolete long before it could ever be completed on any large scale in the USA. Watch this site for the future of high speed mass transportation.....

http://blog.cafefoundation.org/ :)

I have been reading up on this and it isn't some crazy idea. It is happening and rather quickly. I'd say by 2020 it will be a a viable alternative for travel in some areas and much more convienent and versatile (and cheaper!) than HSR.
 

CDavid

Well-Known Member
Yeah, who ever said anything about building a connected national network of high-speed trains across an entire continent?

That's exactly the ultimate objective, and that's the way it has to be. The last thing you want is a bunch of disconnected, short to medium distance "high-speed" corridors between select destinations - but little or no rail transportation connecting them. For instance, in Florida not everyone is traveling solely between Miami and Orlando (in the HSR proposal); Some people may board in Tampa who need to go to Jacksonville or Savannah. Should we really expect them to take the train to Orlando, get off and board a bus (or fly) to Jacksonville, then get on another train to Savannah? That would never work, obviously, and is one of probably thousands of such examples nationwide.

That doesn't mean that every segment of passenger railway needs to be "high-speed" rail. On the contrary, what most of the country needs first is a program of incrementally improved conventional passenger rail, with the goal of faster, greatly expanded, and more reliable service. There are many different plans (and proposed routes) for high-speed rail in America, but if you did have such a train from Miami to Orlando in the future, then you certainly must have conventional train service connecting north to Jacksonville and points north and west. This connecting service should (as a very general rule) at a minimum have 3-5 trains per day at speeds between 79 and 110 mph. This can be done at a relatively modest cost, especially when compared to big-ticket investments such as true HSR.

If you need to go more than 250 miles, you should fly.

Don't fall into the trap of assuming that high-speed trains are competing timewise with airplanes and therefore the only place they can 'win' is in short-distance corridors where - combined with th extra time needed to get to the airport, through security, and actually on the plane then make the flight - the train can get just as fast. A train with a top speed of even 110 mph could conceivably beat the plane on a 250 mile route, but in any event it is not air travel but the automobile which is the passenger trains primary competition. You don't have to beat the planes schedule when you aren't competing on time anyway. People who want to fly, should fly. The train may sometimes attract more people from buses (or perhaps even some people who otherwise wouldn't have made the trip at all, without train service) than it gets from the air.

Even at 200MPH, all those trains would take triple or quadruple (or more) the amount of time it takes to fly from Chicago to Orlando.

Again, especially on longer distance connecting train services, you are not attempting to compete timewise with air travel (and even a conventional 79 mph train will easily beat driving times on such a route). Improved conventional train services (and in this example, restoring the Chicago to Florida train route) can, again, be made much faster and more frequent than today for a reasonable cost, so even if in the future its still an overnight or all-day trip somewhere, more air passengers will start to decide the time savings aren't worth the hassles of flying, and opt for the slower train (this happens already).

Not to mention that in the short 20 mile hop from MCO to WDW, with at least one stop in between at the convention center, an expensive high speed rail system couldn't get going beyond the 75 MPH that a far cheaper conventional rail system could travel for a tiny fraction of the price

Correct. Actually, the entire Tampa to Orlando proposal should have been for a conventional passenger railway, built on improving existing freight-shared rail infrastructure, at a fraction of the cost of the HSR proposal. The airport to WDW should have been light-rail.

Finally, the Tampa to Orlando high-speed rail project may have been dead before Governor Scott rejected it. Service from Jacksonville to Miami (along the east coast) is supposedly still a go, but apparently that's being looked at again now too, along with Sun Rail, both thought to be a done deal.

The entire federal program of high-speed rail projects has been so mismanaged and so poorly implemented it has set the prospects for passenger rail development in the United States back years.
 

TP2000

Well-Known Member
The entire federal program of high-speed rail projects has been so mismanaged and so poorly implemented it has set the prospects for passenger rail development in the United States back years.

Agreed. The Feds seem to have bumbled their way into it thinking they could pass out big checks to gloss over their ineptness, and now that individual states are opting out, the Feds are making themselves look even worse.

There was clearly not a lot of planning behind the process.
 

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