News Splash Mountain retheme to Princess and the Frog - Tiana's Bayou Adventure

[larryz]

Apparently, the plot of the retheme is Louis trying to find his trumpet and getting into whacky shenanigans.

That's a multi-level tribute to jazz musicians everywhere, especially Louis Armstrong. Who could possibly be against THAT!?!?

 

[_caleb]

Isn’t this thread for attraction discussion only per WDWmagic’s original post? I think woke is a word frequently used in the discussion of Splash Mountain in the politics and social issues forum. I suppose it’s hard to keep them separated though.

Deleted my post. Sorry for being off-topic. Thanks for the reminder.

 

[MisterPenguin]

Apparently, the plot of the retheme is Louis trying to find his trumpet and getting into whacky shenanigans.

Oh, hey, you're back posting in this thread, but I think you may have overlooked this question to you...

So now Disney and the pro-rethemers on this site are claiming that those that people who like and/or work as cast members on Splash Mountain are racist.

Can you quote one person who said that in this thread?

Waiting for the quote to back up your accusation.

 

[MurphyJoe]

Apparently, the plot of the retheme is Louis trying to find his trumpet and getting into whacky shenanigans.

So let me see if I got this straight. To make the park more inclusive, Disney is going to remove an attraction based on Black American folk tales for a retheme primarily featuring a non-human character from a film mostly written by Caucasians (2 outta 3, Rob Edwards is the exception) and pushing aside the Black lead. This doesn't even make sense in Fantasyland.

 

[MisterPenguin]

So let me see if I got this straight. To make the park more inclusive, Disney is going to remove an attraction based on Black American folk tales for a retheme primarily featuring a non-human character from a film mostly written by Caucasians (2 outta 3, Rob Edwards is the exception) and pushing aside the Black lead. This doesn't even make sense in Fantasyland.

It still features a Black princess and culturally African-American music. The alligator is a stand-in for a very famous Black jazz musician.

Not hitting all the tick boxes doesn't mean it doesn't hit enough of them.

 

[Po'Rich]

Apparently, the plot of the retheme is Louis trying to find his trumpet and getting into whacky shenanigans.

This would be an interesting choice considering the blow-back Disney received a few years ago when there was an alligator accident. At the time, there was concern that the animated alligators, such as Louis, might contribute to children not keeping a safe distance from the real thing.

 

[_caleb]

So let me see if I got this straight. To make the park more inclusive, Disney is going to remove an attraction based on Black American folk tales for a retheme primarily featuring a non-human character from a film mostly written by Caucasians (2 outta 3, Rob Edwards is the exception) and pushing aside the Black lead. This doesn't even make sense in Fantasyland.

I think a lot more people know about Splash Mountain’s connection to Song of the South and all it’s racial insensitivity than know about any connections of the story/ride to “Black American folk tales.”

 

[Brer Oswald]

It still features a Black princess and culturally African-American music. The alligator is a stand-in for a very famous Black jazz musician.

Not hitting all the tick boxes doesn't mean it doesn't hit enough of them.

Not when a pretty large complaint of the film is that Tiana is a frog for most of the movie. It is with expectation that she will be the protagonist of this attraction in human form.

If she’s a mere side character, this will be a flop on the inclusivity scale that only the shilliest of shills will be able to defend.

 

[Brer Oswald]

I think a lot more people know about Splash Mountain’s connection to Song of the South and all it’s racial insensitivity than know about any connections of the story/ride to “Black American folk tales.”

That’s the problem. That’s what should be fixed. When people think of the African American Folktales, their mind is going to jump to the racially insensitive film, Song of the South. When people think of Splash Mountain, their mind is going to jump to the racially insensitive film, Song of the South.

The only way to fix this is to find a way to inform people with a more accurate and non-offensive adaptation. Instead, they’ve chosen to walk away and sell more toys.

It’s perfectly acceptable to applaud Disney’s decision to make attractions and movies with protagonists that have more culturally varied backgrounds, while also criticizing what they did to the Brer Rabbit stories and how they’ve handled their mistakes.

 

[_caleb]

That’s the problem. That’s what should be fixed. When people think of the African American Folktales, their mind is going to jump to the racially insensitive film, Song of the South. When people think of Splash Mountain, their mind is going to jump to the racially insensitive film, Song of the South.

The only way to fix this is to find a way to inform people with a more accurate and non-offensive adaptation. Instead, they’ve chosen to walk away and sell more toys.

It’s perfectly acceptable to applaud Disney’s decision to make attractions and movies with protagonists that have more culturally varied backgrounds, while also criticizing what they did to the Brer Rabbit stories and how they’ve handled their mistakes.

Right. But to try to provide “African Folk Tale” context to the ride would be a problem because the ride doesn’t exist in Harambe Village, but in Frontierland USA.

 

[Brer Oswald]

Right. But to try to provide “African Folk Tale” context to the ride would be a problem because the ride doesn’t exist in Harambe Village, but in Frontierland USA.

The context would have to be provided in a film. It’s too big of an issue to just gloss over in a theme park attraction. The audience there is too small in comparison, and 10 minutes isn’t enough time to elaborate on it.

Now, you could argue the inappropriateness of Frontierland as the backdrop, as you could for the replacement. Although the stories have roots in Africa, they were popularized by the Black Americans who would share the stories of Brer Rabbit in 19th century America. I assume that was the justification for choice of land when they originally made the ride, since Frontierland takes place in the 19th Century America.

 

[UNCgolf]

1) I hear a lot of people saying that Splash is "well designed" (myself included) and I have been trying to figure out what that really means. I think it boils down to that Imagineering, on the whole, is really good at one specific type of storytelling, which I call 'implicit' or 'experiential' storytelling. Rides that remain relevant over time have less of a linear narrative and more of an overall 'feel' to the ride (pirates, HM, spaceship earth, etc...). When people refer to a ride feeling like a 'classic', this is what I think they are trying to explain. Attractions like Alien Encounter or even Frozen Ever After aren't really objectively bad, but are inherently less repeatable and relevant in the long term due to their more linear narrative. Splash is unique where it bridges the gap between these two types but never ends up being *too* linear in its narrative. I think that's part of the reason why people relate to the story (and attraction as a whole) so well.

I think this basically describes why I have a higher opinion of Navi River Journey than most. Of course it has issues (mainly that it's much too short) but the "feel" of the attraction is fantastic. You're surrounded by a lush detailed setting; it's gorgeous and relaxing. If you offered me the choice of a short ride with the feel/experience of NRJ or a longer ride along the lines of Frozen Ever After (not that FEA is longer -- just a hypothetical FEA that was twice as long as it currently is), I'd take NRJ every time.

 

[thequeuelinelectures]

There seems to be a theme here: ignore the question asked and make some other point.

I responded to someone who claimed that since PatF will be an expedited projected, then that means it will just be screens.

So, I asked what other rethemes were labeled by Disney an "expedited project" and the result was to remove all the AAs and make it just screens.

Someone said: Mission Breakout.

So I asked "How many AAs were removed from MBO and replaced by screens?"

Still no answer to that question, but, you two decide to talk about: the exterior of MBO which didn't have AAs and is not screens; and FEA which added a bunch of AAs and has relatively few screens. Neither of which were labeled an 'expedited project' as far as I know (FEA in fact took a rather long time to retheme).

So...

If someone claims that an "expedited project" is going to be "just screens", is there any example of a previously expedited project in which that happened?

Mind you, except for a very small number of simulators (Soarin', Star Tours, SW:SR, FoP), there's pretty much no Disney ride that's just all screens. And even then, those simulators are rather plussed -- they ain't just a flying theater. The only ride that I can think of that's mostly screens done cheap is Nemo. But a data set of one isn't a pattern. Disney isn't Universal.

For the record, I'm hopeful for this project and generally think MBO and FEA were well done. You're also totally right that when you go through those rethemes there isn't a trend of getting rid of physical elements for digital ones. That being said, I think some of the concern people are feeling around disney touching this attraction is that they just don't make rides like this anymore.

Splash has 60+ animatronics and most modern attractions don't even get close to that. Rise has ~10, Navi River has ~1, Pirates in Shanghai has ~5, Frozen ever after has ~10. The last ride they did that's as animatronic dense as splash is maybe Sinbad but that's been 20 years. I don't mind this trend of fewer figures that are of higher quality, but that would be represent a bigger change for Splash.

I think that's some of the anxiety people are feeling. Less, OMG SCREEENS, and more that a shift from loads of lower quality figures to fewer key figures of higher quality risks losing some of the charm that made Splash a classic ride.

That being said, I'm optimistic they can reuse some of the old figures and do something great here

 

[Brer Panther]

Just thought I'd post this old article from 2015 discussing how Disney tried to help Splash Mountain feel less like a direct adaptation of Song of the South and stand on its own as an adaptation of the Brer Rabbit stories:

http://passport2dreams.blogspot.com/2015/05/song-of-south-disneys-loaded-gun.html

Depressingly, most of what they're saying sound very much what people on this site have said to justify the retheme.

Your thoughts?

 

[BuzzedPotatoHead89]

For the record, I'm hopeful for this project and generally think MBO and FEA were well done. You're also totally right that when you go through those rethemes there isn't a trend of getting rid of physical elements for digital ones. That being said, I think some of the concern people are feeling around disney touching this attraction is that they just don't make rides like this anymore.

Splash has 60+ animatronics and most modern attractions don't even get close to that. Rise has ~10, Navi River has ~1, Pirates in Shanghai has ~5, Frozen ever after has ~10. The last ride they did that's as animatronic dense as splash is maybe Sinbad but that's been 20 years. I don't mind this trend of fewer figures that are of higher quality, but that would be represent a bigger change for Splash.

I think that's some of the anxiety people are feeling. Less, OMG SCREEENS, and more that a shift from loads of lower quality figures to fewer key figures of higher quality risks losing some of the charm that made Splash a classic ride.

That being said, I'm optimistic they can reuse some of the old figures and do something great here

This is my feeling as well. I would hate to see a majority of the animatronics be fully trashed for a more screen based experience, but I do think even in that case it could still “work”. I have said I have every faith WDI CAN pull this off successfully my concern is that this is being rushed for PR reasons.

 

[BuzzedPotatoHead89]

There seems to be a theme here: ignore the question asked and make some other point.

I responded to someone who claimed that since PatF will be an expedited projected, then that means it will just be screens.

So, I asked what other rethemes were labeled by Disney an "expedited project" and the result was to remove all the AAs and make it just screens.

Someone said: Mission Breakout.

So I asked "How many AAs were removed from MBO and replaced by screens?"

Still no answer to that question, but, you two decide to talk about: the exterior of MBO which didn't have AAs and is not screens; and FEA which added a bunch of AAs and has relatively few screens. Neither of which were labeled an 'expedited project' as far as I know (FEA in fact took a rather long time to retheme).

So...

If someone claims that an "expedited project" is going to be "just screens", is there any example of a previously expedited project in which that happened?

Mind you, except for a very small number of simulators (Soarin', Star Tours, SW:SR, FoP), there's pretty much no Disney ride that's just all screens. And even then, those simulators are rather plussed -- they ain't just a flying theater. The only ride that I can think of that's mostly screens done cheap is Nemo. But a data set of one isn't a pattern. Disney isn't Universal.

To your question on GOTG you are correct. More AAs were added as part of the pre-show, though more “practical effects” were lost.

If we’re looking for a “pure” example of an attraction conversion where AAs were lost. I think GMR to MMRR is the most recent example of a quality replacement with likely a net AA loss. Going further back “less worthy examples” the CoP/AS theater eventually gave way to innoventions which became an even more screen heavy attraction. CBJ was replaced by a ride (Pooh) with mostly flats (yes, flats and plastic figures are not screens, but I think you and I both know the spirit of the argument here).

I wouldn’t say there’s no past evidence in the theme park industry or WDI of AAs being replaced due to cost/maintainable. My caution is that reliance on “screens” and a handful of complex AAs requires more thoughtful approach to execution, particularly for a ride like Splash. But it can be done, and has been before.

 

[rreading]

The context would have to be provided in a film. It’s too big of an issue to just gloss over in a theme park attraction. The audience there is too small in comparison, and 10 minutes isn’t enough time to elaborate on it.

Now, you could argue the inappropriateness of Frontierland as the backdrop, as you could for the replacement. Although the stories have roots in Africa, they were popularized by the Black Americans who would share the stories of Brer Rabbit in 19th century America. I assume that was the justification for choice of land when they originally made the ride, since Frontierland takes place in the 19th Century America.

In theory this explanation could take place in the queue of the ride - we certainly have enough time standing around waiting to ride. But that would only work for those who are at WDW intending to ride, and might not appease the cancel culture.

I have not seen SotS and have to assume that it is as racist as it is said. But to me, it seems that the protests must be against the story of Brer Rabbit - not SotS - since Disney has essentially expunged SotS and could easily make the statement that Brer Rabbit existed separate from the movie and that no one is able to see the movie anymore.

Just because it is a story from black culture doesn't mean that it is racist. That's my concern with this. Get rid of the Confederate monuments and Confederate flag - sure. But this? Doesn't make sense to me

 

[celluloid]

To your question on GOTG you are correct. More AAs were added as part of the pre-show, though more “practical effects” were lost.

If we’re looking for a “pure” example of an attraction conversion where AAs were lost. I think GMR to MMRR is the most recent example of a quality replacement with likely a net AA loss. Going further back “less worthy examples” the CoP/AS theater eventually gave way to innoventions which became an even more screen heavy attraction. CBJ was replaced by a ride (Pooh) with mostly flats (yes, flats and plastic figures are not screens, but I think you and I both know the spirit of the argument here).

Mission Space would be a other major example (although not of quality in my or many opinions)of that.
Also Test Track from World of Motion and Kitchen Kaberet to Soarin' to some extent.

 

[Danny012]

First time posting so apologise if this is in the wrong thread. I am genuinely gutted at the loss of splash mountain as it was mine and my partners favourite ride. On my last wdw visit the ride consistently had long queues and saw people of all ethnicities on the ride and coming away with a smile on their faces.
I have seen song of the south after hearing lots of people who hadnt seen the film say it was racist. Personally i didnt find it offensive and if anything it shows a geniunely sweet interacial friendship- the white boy learns life lessons via the brer rabbit stories told him by uncle remus. Isnt that a good message that we can learn from each other despite racial/cultural differences.
That being said i can see how some would find the plantation setting insensitive even though its set after the civil war. Maybe disney should rerelease the film and let people make their own minds up.

 

[lightningtap347]

First time posting so apologise if this is in the wrong thread. I am genuinely gutted at the loss of splash mountain as it was mine and my partners favourite ride. On my last wdw visit the ride consistently had long queues and saw people of all ethnicities on the ride and coming away with a smile on their faces.
I have seen song of the south after hearing lots of people who hadnt seen the film say it was racist. Personally i didnt find it offensive and if anything it shows a geniunely sweet interacial friendship- the white boy learns life lessons via the brer rabbit stories told him by uncle remus. Isnt that a good message that we can learn from each other despite racial/cultural differences.
That being said i can see how some would find the plantation setting insensitive even though its set after the civil war. Maybe disney should rerelease the film and let people make their own minds up.

Disney can't re-release the film after spending so much time denying it's existence.

It's funny in that the films own lessons are shown in Disney's response.

Disney created this problem by withholding media and allowing public opinion to fester. They ran away from the problem and tried to dig their head in the sand. Now the problem is too big, and they can't run away from it anymore.

Removing Splash Mountain is not going to solve the problem that they've created. It might help, but the problem is still not alleviated. There's a film that has been perpetrated as being viscerally racist without any evidence to the contrary. The public opinion of the media is set in stone without even have seen it.

I don't think those opinions (or the fascination) with regards to the media are going to go away with this. This is going to be there so long as it's forbidden.