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News Splash Mountain retheme to Princess and the Frog - attraction discussion only

RSoxNo1

Well-Known Member
C’mon, believe it or not nobody knew what the song and movie really were until just recently...that includes Tom Hank’s character in Splash. How many children have sung that song, (black and white and every other nationality since the movie was released and through the years since Splah was made. We know now and the censorship is as far as it needs to go.
There's a misconception that racism is only about hate. You kind of outlined an aspect of it here by citing ignorance. So many of the societal changes we're currently witnessing are stemming from more people understanding what we were ignorant of 1 year, 5 years, 10 years, or 100 years ago. We move forward by learning from that ignorance, listening to people that were affected by that ignorance and adapting our behavior.
 

celluloid

Well-Known Member
C’mon, believe it or not nobody knew what the song and movie really were until just recently...that includes Tom Hank’s character in Splash. How many children have sung that song, (black and white and every other nationality since the movie was released and through the years since Splah was made. We know now and the censorship is as far as it needs to go.

Sung by children of different races holding hands with a man of a minority race in a film that was the first to show a black and white hand grasping together, in a close up for impact no less.
 

owlsandcoffee

Well-Known Member
I don't mean to direct hate in anybody's direction but if anyone here is open to hearing criticism of SotS and SM I can suggest a couple videos and podcasts. I want to note I'm not anti-SM per se.
 

jagiord1

Well-Known Member
Bringing this thread back to the retheming of Splash Mountain: I know it flew under the radar with the news of the Disney Look being updated, but that same article specifically mentioned Splash Mountain's retheme to Princess and the Frog. This should put an end to all those theorizing it was canceled because Disney hasn't mentioned it since they first announced it.
 

Magicart87

〝𝘙𝘪𝘨𝘩𝘵𝘺-𝘖!〞
Premium Member
Bringing this thread back to the retheming of Splash Mountain: I know it flew under the radar with the news of the Disney Look being updated, but that same article specifically mentioned Splash Mountain's retheme to Princess and the Frog. This should put an end to all those theorizing it was canceled because Disney hasn't mentioned it since they first announced it.
That article neither hints at anything new nor does it explicitly mention the Splash Mountain overlay for WDW. Even the wording "adventures with Princess Tiana" sounds vague and ambiguous.
 

Sharon&Susan

Well-Known Member
That article neither hints at anything new nor does it explicitly mention the Splash Mountain overlay for WDW. Even the wording "adventures with Princess Tiana" sounds vague and ambiguous.
It is pretty explicit that they are talking about the retheme with it linking back to the original announcement that mentions both WDW and DL.
 
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Brer Oswald

Well-Known Member
There's a misconception that racism is only about hate. You kind of outlined an aspect of it here by citing ignorance. So many of the societal changes we're currently witnessing are stemming from more people understanding what we were ignorant of 1 year, 5 years, 10 years, or 100 years ago. We move forward by learning from that ignorance, listening to people that were affected by that ignorance and adapting our behavior.
Prejudice, antagonism, discrimination. So no, not just hate. But I’m not sure what you are even talking about here.

Unfortunately (or fortunately) a happy song about a beautiful day doesn’t fit those categories.

You can believe a conspiracy theory from the 90s that it was secretly based on an offensive song by the shear notion that there’s a shared syllable, but there’s no basis in reality.

It’s another theory to support someone’s narrative. The difference in intent is clear. One song makes fun of a particular background especially in its lyricism and articulation. The other is articulated well, features a made up phrase like Mary Poppins, and won a guy an Oscar.
 

Brer Oswald

Well-Known Member
I don't mean to direct hate in anybody's direction but if anyone here is open to hearing criticism of SotS and SM I can suggest a couple videos and podcasts. I want to note I'm not anti-SM per se.
There’s a very good book called “Who’s Afraid of Song of the South”. It doesn’t offer an opinion per say (I don’t care about opinion pieces on this subject because most aren’t well researched) but it adds some context on the creation of the film.

It clears up some of the “issues” that are perceived, but also adds some that many people did not know about. There’s one particular “move” that really puts the public perception into perspective.
 

owlsandcoffee

Well-Known Member
There’s a very good book called “Who’s Afraid of Song of the South”. It doesn’t offer an opinion per say (I don’t care about opinion pieces on this subject because most aren’t well researched) but it adds some context on the creation of the film.

It clears up some of the “issues” that are perceived, but also adds some that many people did not know about. There’s one particular “move” that really puts the public perception into perspective.

I have heard of Jim's book, might have to read it someday. I'm of the opinion that SotS was attempting to tie up years of anti-black media and re-contextualize it with the message "we all have a lot to learn from each other". I don't believe the final product achieved that goal, for reasons I stated in this thread a few weeks ago.

It looks like the changes are definitely happening; hopefully PatF can just put an end to all this. Maybe someday when race isn't ruining people's lives we can just watch the movie warts and all.
 

Animaniac93-98

Well-Known Member
I don't mean to direct hate in anybody's direction but if anyone here is open to hearing criticism of SotS and SM I can suggest a couple videos and podcasts. I want to note I'm not anti-SM per se.

I think it's also important to look at other pieces about Hollywood's portrayal of and relation with Black people in the 1930s and 40s.

TCM has a documentary on black face in old Hollywood. NYT has a video on the limited roles for Black actors during Hollywood's "golden era". Both are on YouTube. It's also a good idea to look at the history of the Hayes code too, which among other things, forbid depictions of interracial romantic relationships on film.

You can't look at SotS in a vacuum. Saying it was made in another era is not a dismissal of its flaws, it's the truth. The problem with much of the conversation is that many people (especially those under 30) today only ever watch pre-1980 movies if they're things like Disney cartoons and are shocked to see anything that would not be considered appropriate now, but really was common back then.

Here's the opening to MGM's remake of Show Boat, the second highest grossing film of 1952. You might recognize it from The Great Movie Ride, but probably not the shots involving Black plantation workers that are not too dissimilar from those in SotS. All the studios of the time were perpetuating this Romanticized depiction of the "Old South", and the majority of American movie goers ate it up:

 
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owlsandcoffee

Well-Known Member
I had been discussing the influences behind SotS's animated segments (minstrelsy, Amos 'n' Andy) a while back but got overly intense and was a bit of a jerk. I'll repeat my thoughts more politely. Minstrelsy was probably the largest form of entertainment in America from the early 19th through the early 20th century. It's more than blackface; it had tropes and characters and songs. Two of the characters were Zip C**n and Jim Crow. Zip was a dandy who used big words and spoke fast but was, under it all, just another idiot. Jim was a total idiot, lazy, useless.

Br'er Fox is Zip, Br'er Bear is Jim. Br'er Fox even has a vest and hat which I believe reference Zip (Marc Davis was definitely aware of this form of art. I don't believe he was hateful or anything, I quite like him. But he had a vast knowledge of the arts). If those connections are a little tenuous, the voice acting should cement it. Yes, all of the voice actors were black, and Baskett especially is really really good at it. But. These actors were all bringing with them a history with Amos 'n' Andy that informed their performances. In that show they were made to imitate white people that had performed those characters on the radio. The characters were, originally, meant to mock black people. The dialects are not black dialects, they are minstrel dialects. And Splash Mountain features them too. That is my one issue with the ride. Could it have been changed without PatF? Yeah, just have new voices. Fixes most of it.

SotS will always be a stain until Disney acknowledges it, treats it as a mistake that requires forgiveness, and moves forward.

I agree that if most people my age (I'm 24) watched TCM as often as I do the phone lines would probably be on fire.
 

EagleScout610

Premium Member
It is pretty explicit that they are talking about the retheme with it linking back to the original announcement that mentions both WDW and DL.
Yea, but I kind of wonder if some of the mentions of the refurb is their way of saying "Look, we've got tons of stuff happening rn so just hold tight. We'll get to Splash...eventually"
 

Brer Oswald

Well-Known Member
Yea, but I kind of wonder if some of the mentions of the refurb is their way of saying "Look, we've got tons of stuff happening rn so just hold tight. We'll get to Splash...eventually"
Nah they’re just plugging the bare minimum they have. “Diversity” is their new angle. The offerings (a PatF overlay, Jungle Cruise, and an advertisement for Soul) are pretty weak, but they seem to work well.

I don’t think they are particularly committed to “diversity”. Their brand has become pretty simple. “Pick a Princess, super hero, or Jedi. We have a few skin tones for each”. It’s a superficial start, but diversity is also about personality, physical type, culture, interest, etc. People are satisfied right now. Perhaps not in the future.
 

Animaniac93-98

Well-Known Member
I didn't see one Roman in that opening sequence... maybe you meant "romanticized"?

That said... that clip was stunning in its clarity and definition. Gave me goosebumps.

Warner Achieve does wonders with their film restorations. That clip also features the film's stereo soundtrack remix that was originally done for the 1998 LaserDisc and is now featured on the new Blu-ray release. :)
 

Musical Mermaid

Well-Known Member
It seems like Splash Mountain consistently has the highest wait time, anyone know how accurate the time posted usually is?
I can’t speak for the average wait time, but I rode it yesterday when the sign said 55 minutes and waited about 40 minutes for it. It had the highest wait time of all of the attractions at Magic Kingdom every time I checked the app. In comparison, I waited about 7 minutes for BTMR around that time.
 

Brer Oswald

Well-Known Member
I had been discussing the influences behind SotS's animated segments (minstrelsy, Amos 'n' Andy) a while back but got overly intense and was a bit of a jerk. I'll repeat my thoughts more politely. Minstrelsy was probably the largest form of entertainment in America from the early 19th through the early 20th century. It's more than blackface; it had tropes and characters and songs. Two of the characters were Zip C**n and Jim Crow. Zip was a dandy who used big words and spoke fast but was, under it all, just another idiot. Jim was a total idiot, lazy, useless.

Br'er Fox is Zip, Br'er Bear is Jim. Br'er Fox even has a vest and hat which I believe reference Zip (Marc Davis was definitely aware of this form of art. I don't believe he was hateful or anything, I quite like him. But he had a vast knowledge of the arts). If those connections are a little tenuous, the voice acting should cement it. Yes, all of the voice actors were black, and Baskett especially is really really good at it. But. These actors were all bringing with them a history with Amos 'n' Andy that informed their performances. In that show they were made to imitate white people that had performed those characters on the radio. The characters were, originally, meant to mock black people. The dialects are not black dialects, they are minstrel dialects. And Splash Mountain features them too. That is my one issue with the ride. Could it have been changed without PatF? Yeah, just have new voices. Fixes most of it.

SotS will always be a stain until Disney acknowledges it, treats it as a mistake that requires forgiveness, and moves forward.

I agree that if most people my age (I'm 24) watched TCM as often as I do the phone lines would probably be on fire.
Let me preface this be apologizing for my original reply to this post. It was snarky and not at all helpful to the discussion.

Disney’s Brer Fox and Brer Bear are based on the Fox and the Bear from the folklore. The fox thinks he’s smarter than he really is. He shows moments of brilliance (he catches the Rabbit often) but falls for the tricksters tricks. I’ve also been told he has elements of the Coyote from the Indigenous tales. The bear is gullible but has great force. I’m sure we’ve all met many Brer Foxes and Brer Bears in our life, not specific to any skin color or background, but rather in personality.

I think the complaints about the dialect and voice are somewhat justified. It seems like this is the aspect that make people the most uncomfortable about the film. Many try to come up with contrived reasons or theories on why the film is bad, but the explanations always come back to the voices. I get it. It’s probably exaggerated. To what degree, I don’t know, and I’m sure most arguing it don’t know either. I’d love to know, with something to back it up. Naturally, the dialect was heavily modified for the ride. Perhaps not enough, that might have been a wise change last year (including giving Brer Rabbit a black voice).

The era in which SotS was made was an era in which many black actors had “unflattering” roles by today’s standards. Thankfully, we are in a much better era today. However, I don’t think it is right to place the blame of the past era on Johnny Lee, James Baskette, and Nick Stewart, all of which gave an amazing performance. Nor should we place the blame on the characters that predate Disney and the voices by a significant amount of time.

A lot of people seem to be claiming that these characters come from minstrelsy. Not sure where this is coming from, but it isn’t quite accurate. There are, however, rooted in slavery. But this is where the context matters. These were the stories that gave the black Americans hope. They were the Brer Rabbits. They didn’t always want to resort to his trickery, but they did when they had to. They were so much smarter than the white people that looked down upon them (The Brer Foxes and the Brer Bears). I think it’s a shame that we only seem to care about their tragedies rather than their triumphs. Their messages and stories are still something we all need to learn from. The more time that passes, the more I realize that they were the smartest of them all.
 

MadTeacup

Well-Known Member
Ideally, they'd also put something new in the Stitch building but it looks like they just don't care.
They actually do care, though. Right before the Covid closure, a team of imagineers was preparing a new attraction for the space. They were SO close to getting the green light that the demo permits were already being filed. Unfortunately, I would not be surprised if the PatF budget is partially being funded by redirected funds from the Stitch replacement.

View attachment 547888

There's lots of room back there, even if they move the dots back to the stripe zone... the bigger issue would be sightlines from the west edge of the expansion area. Of course, the current management doesn't seem all that concerned about sightlines, so that might not be an issue.
There's two issues with building in this area. The obvious one is the parade route. As someone has already mentioned, there's not much space left to re-orient the parade route. I know this from firsthand experience. HOWEVER, the even BIGGER issue is the barely noticeable green structure with a (white roof) between Splash Mountain and the parade route. This building houses the mechanical systems that power Avac, (sp?) the Magic Kingdom trash chute system. It would be difficult to relocate this facility because it would likely result in trash disposal issues throughout the park. Don't get me wrong, from satellite imagery, this definitely looks feasible. Unfortunately, it's not that simple
 

owlsandcoffee

Well-Known Member
Let me preface this be apologizing for my original reply to this post. It was snarky and not at all helpful to the discussion.
No worries. I didn't even see it, and I've done the same before.
Disney’s Brer Fox and Brer Bear are based on the Fox and the Bear from the folklore. The fox thinks he’s smarter than he really is. He shows moments of brilliance (he catches the Rabbit often) but falls for the tricksters tricks. I’ve also been told he has elements of the Coyote from the Indigenous tales. The bear is gullible but has great force. I’m sure we’ve all met many Brer Foxes and Brer Bears in our life, not specific to any skin color or background, but rather in personality.
That's fair. I can agree with that.
To what degree, I don’t know, and I’m sure most arguing it don’t know either. I’d love to know, with something to back it up.
You can find the voice actors giving interviews later in life; it's obvious they didn't talk like their characters. Buuuuuuuut...
I don’t think it is right to place the blame of the past era on Johnny Lee, James Baskette, and Nick Stewart, all of which gave an amazing performance. Nor should we place the blame on the characters that predate Disney and the voices by a significant amount of time.
...fair. I don't hold the actors to account for that. It's a larger, centuries-spanning history.
A lot of people seem to be claiming that these characters come from minstrelsy. Not sure where this is coming from, but it isn’t quite accurate. There are, however, rooted in slavery. But this is where the context matters. These were the stories that gave the black Americans hope. They were the Brer Rabbits.
I maybe wasn't clear. The Br'er characters are not rooted in minstrelsy, but I argue that their depiction in SotS is, for reasons I elucidated above. I agree that Br'er Rabbit is aspirational and subversive.

I'll note I actually enjoy SotS for what it is and I don't think it's as bad as some twitter kiddies seem to think (funny they usually haven't seen it!). Disney is partly to blame for this; it must be awful if they will never let anyone see it! And that creates the question of why it's okay to have in SM but not the film.
 

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