Tiana's Bayou Adventure: Disneyland Watch & Discussion

The Grand Inquisitor

Well-Known Member
I'm going to put this here, although I think my original comments I need to apologize for were in some other thread.

In one of these Splash threads when the news broke a couple weeks ago, I was confident this was a slapdash response and I said Disney was lying when they said in the Parks Blog that this Tiana concept had begun development "last year". Yesterday I learned at a party that I was wrong about that, and WDI had in fact hatched this Tiana concept last year long before weeks of riots and looting and peaceful protesting swept across America in response to systemic racism and police brutality.

I need to protect the innocent here, but suffice it to say that there was a gentleman at the party who has been involved with WDI for many years and is in a position to know what he is talking about. (And no @Figments Friend it was NOT Mr. Baxter, whom I haven't seen in months since I took that sneaky photo for you after I ran into him shopping at the nearby Bristol Farms 🤣). But it was someone who would know what they're talking about. And here's what I learned...

The Tiana remake of Splash Mountain concept was actually proposed and given some funding for development back in 2019. Part of the way WDI operates is they are constantly dreaming up new ideas for the parks; sometimes they are all new builds and concepts, but often they are more affordable remakes and repurposing of existing park facilities. WDI stays in business and keeps their staff employed by having projects that are funded by the Parks division, and without those projects big and small the work dries up and Imagineers get laid off. So it behooves WDI management to always have a steady stream of slick and exciting new projects available to lure Parks executives into spending money and investing in the various parks around the world. They need a pipeline of attractive projects to show Parks execs keep the work going.

That said, the Tiana project for Splash Mountain did not come about because of any noble attempt by WDI to achieve social justice by removing the Song Of The South characters and story, they simply weren't thinking about it back in 2019. WDI's original driving goals behind redoing Splash Mountain were business driven, because they knew that even before Bob Iger's 2020 comments on the film it was unlikely Burbank would ever reverse course and embrace the Song Of The South characters, and thus the characters would remain relatively unknown by parks audiences and no real emotional attachment to that story could be leveraged. There was a minor undercurrent in WDI that Song Of The South wasn't very PC, but it was not a major element to the 2019 proposal to retheme Splash Mountain.

The Tiana concept was chosen as a project worthy of active development because the proposal was able to play up the connections to New Orleans themed food and cuisine, and thus the Food & Beverage departments in the parks could offer Instagram worthy food and drink concoctions for sale. The driving force with Bob Chapek in charge of WDI and the Parks (as he was in 2019 when the proposal was presented and given initial development funding) is to drive revenue across multiple departments; a new parks project has to prove that it is an IP that can translate directly into increased sales in either merchandise, dining, or upcharge experiences, and preferably at least two of those things if not all three.

And so Tiana's story was seen as a way to sell the project by connecting it to dining locations in the parks that already exist (New Orleans Square) or can be re-themed to help support the project (Hungry Bear Restaurant and the aging Pooh store with historically declining sales in Critter Country).

So work had actually been bubbling along on this Tiana Mountain idea for the past year. I asked how this works in WDW because Splash Mountain there is smack in the middle of Frontierland. I was laughingly told that the Tiana project was created with Disneyland in mind, but like many projects it also gets added to WDW as an afterthought. Star Wars Land was designed specifically for Disneyland's current location, and they knew they could wedge it in somewhere in WDW too. The Disneyland setting alongside New Orleans Square and a re-themed Critter Country is the ultimate goal for the project and the artistic vision they are designing for, and later they'll just wedge it into WDW next to Thunder Mountain because no one in Orlando is going to care or give them grief about it.

The other thing I learned was that the entire concept is very early in its development. It won't be opening for years. Under normal circumstances, even if it had gotten the green light from Burbank last month this idea would not have been announced publicly or seen the light of day for at least another 18 months if not longer. But the current political climate and the Twitter mob forced the issue before the ride was ready to be announced. That is why there is only one single piece of artwork available, and it was created quickly as a very generic view of the existing log ride with some characters and visual elements overlaid onto it. The real ride is still subject to many revisions and alterations, so there's no telling what actually is going to happen inside the ride where the show actually takes place. But screens will be included in the new show, and many of the America Sings animatronics will be retired permanently while the budget requires that some get repurposed into Princess & The Frog characters. The gentleman had not heard that the ride system will be changed in any meaningful way in Anaheim. There's no money for that anyway.

The other info I learned from the conversation is that many, many other active WDI projects have been put on indefinite hold at all the parks outside Japan. The sober realization in WDI is that Burbank will need to conserve cash and resources for at least several years, even after the parks, movie studios, cruise line, ESPN, DVC and mass merchandising all get "back to normal" hopefully sometime in 2021. Some of these mothballed construction projects (Tron, Marvel, Toontown, hotels, Anaheim's Downtown Disney) will be sitting silent around the parks for a year or more before they resume work. WDI management is just happy that the Tiana project got announced publicly and the current political climate forced Burbank to commit to it, so at least there is some development work happening in Glendale. But there are many other projects in development that haven't been announced yet that just met their sad demise. Layoffs will be coming to Glendale this fall.

I think that about sums up a chatty conversation that went in several different directions.

Basically the Tiana project had been in development since last year, they actually weren't lying about that like I assumed. But this Tiana project was not initially created out of some noble call to Social Justice, but rather it was initially conceived in 2019 to sell more Instagrammable moments at the adjacent restaurants and gift shops. Pooh and Song Of The South are not hot sellers and are definitely not Instagrammable. Luckily for Burbank and Glendale, they could quickly reposition this Splash Mountain makeover concept as being guided by a noble and lofty goal to bring Social Justice to the magic kingdom and quickly squash an embarrassing Twitter campaign.
So does anyone know of what the ride scenes could be? I remember reading somewhere(I cant remember where) that the ride would focus more on Louis trying to find his trumpet and that Tiana is barely in the ride except the beginning and end of the ride.
 

Brer Panther

Well-Known Member
The fact that they apparently aren't planning to close the ride until 2022 does give me some hope. There's still time for them to change their minds.

I know that the animatronics themselves are historic and all, but was it ever really "honoring" America Sings by reusing the animatronics if the show still closed?
It was either that or they all just get scrapped. I think it was indeed honoring America Sings by reusing them if the alternative was Disney trashing them all like they did the Universe of Energy dinosaurs.
 

PiratesMansion

Well-Known Member
It was either that or they all just get scrapped. I think it was indeed honoring America Sings by reusing them if the alternative was Disney trashing them all like they did the Universe of Energy dinosaurs.

If the person responsible for those animatronics existing in the first place disagrees and felt it was a slap in the face to his own work and legacy, than it's fair to say that it's debatable IMO.
 

Brer Panther

Well-Known Member
Would he have been happier with having them all get scrapped?

Side note, wouldn't it be kind of dangerous to have animatronic birds in the tunnel after the big drop? Wouldn't the splashing water soak the animatronics and ruin them?
 

PiratesMansion

Well-Known Member
Would he have been happier with having them all get scrapped?
Direct quote by Marc Davis from "Marc Davis In His Own Words: Imagineering the Disney Theme Parks"
20200706_191159.jpg


I don't blame him. Imagine your parents, with whom you were estranged, took something you cared a great deal about, your most treasured object/momento, then got rid of it and gave part of it to someone you repeatedly clashed with whose contributions have already replaced or outshown your own more than once, long after your parents had established they had little use for you. That's basically what happened to Marc Davis.

Obviously there were others who thought it was the right decision, but I would hope the opinion of the man who's responsible for those figures existing would have more weight than nothing.

If it comes down to Baxter vs. Davis, then sorry, I'm always going to side with Davis. As much as Baxter has done a lot to make DL what it was, his legacy pales in comparison to that of Davis IMO. I'm sure many will see Marc's feelings as petty, because of course Splash came out of all this, but given how he was treated by the end, I think that those feelings and that pettiness had some validity to them.
 

BuzzedPotatoHead89

Well-Known Member
Direct quote by Marc Davis from "Marc Davis In His Own Words: Imagineering the Disney Theme Parks"View attachment 481880

I don't blame him. Imagine your parents, with whom you were estranged, took something you cared a great deal about, your most treasured object/momento, then got rid of it and gave part of it to someone you repeatedly clashed with whose contributions have already replaced or outshown your own more than once, long after they had established they had little use for you. That's basically what happened to Marc Davis.

Obviously there were others who thought it was the right decision, but I would hope the opinion of the man who's responsible for those figures existing would have more weight than nothing.

If it comes down to Baxter vs. Davis, then sorry, I'm always going to side with Davis. As much as Baxter has done a lot to make DL what it was, his legacy pales in comparison to that of Davis IMO.

I do agree with this and it’s part of the reason I would not have “mucked up” Pirates to begin with to leave one “Marc Davis classic” attraction in tact.

However, even in the timeline of WDI, each Imagineer ultimately builds on the next ones work. Among the examples, Davis and Gracey spun off the concepts from Crump’s museum of the weird for HM in a totally different direction after Walt’s passing. Baxter then went on to flip the script Davis’ work like America Sings and the Mine Train to “plus” it, and now Baxter’s work is being “refreshed” too.

I really don’t mind change. But in terms of Splash, unless the budget is there for a totally new attraction I think I’d rather have the existing AAs survive in some form than a bunch of sterile plastic figures. If they built purpose-built next-gen AAs like BaTB in Tokyo that’s great too, but I doubt that’s in the budget at this juncture for many reasons, so might as well save and reskin and/or redress what exists currently.
 

Practical Pig

Well-Known Member
I'm going to go ahead and guess that animatronic removals will focus on those that aren't easily accessible under current fall-protection standards, so that they can (mostly at least) proceed with a plug-and-play approach to installing the new animatronics into the old infrastructure and repurposing as much as they have to, and keeping as much as they can.
 

Model3 McQueen

Well-Known Member
In the Parks
No
They are my favorite types of guests. No need to apologize, I smiled during that entire confrontation. It was funny and amusing to me.

I assume that person had no admission ticket?😂

lol you are a patient woman!

Basically she didn't want to pay the $2 to spectate her lap swimming son. That's literally what the explosion was about.. $2 more dollars.
 

Model3 McQueen

Well-Known Member
In the Parks
No
I'm going to put this here, although I think my original comments I need to apologize for were in some other thread.

In one of these Splash threads when the news broke a couple weeks ago, I was confident this was a slapdash response and I said Disney was lying when they said in the Parks Blog that this Tiana concept had begun development "last year". Yesterday I learned at a party that I was wrong about that, and WDI had in fact hatched this Tiana concept last year long before weeks of riots and looting and peaceful protesting swept across America in response to systemic racism and police brutality.

I need to protect the innocent here, but suffice it to say that there was a gentleman at the party who has been involved with WDI for many years and is in a position to know what he is talking about. (And no @Figments Friend it was NOT Mr. Baxter, whom I haven't seen in months since I took that sneaky photo for you after I ran into him shopping at the nearby Bristol Farms 🤣). But it was someone who would know what they're talking about. And here's what I learned...

The Tiana remake of Splash Mountain concept was actually proposed and given some funding for development back in 2019. Part of the way WDI operates is they are constantly dreaming up new ideas for the parks; sometimes they are all new builds and concepts, but often they are more affordable remakes and repurposing of existing park facilities. WDI stays in business and keeps their staff employed by having projects that are funded by the Parks division, and without those projects big and small the work dries up and Imagineers get laid off. So it behooves WDI management to always have a steady stream of slick and exciting new projects available to lure Parks executives into spending money and investing in the various parks around the world. They need a pipeline of attractive projects to show Parks execs keep the work going.

That said, the Tiana project for Splash Mountain did not come about because of any noble attempt by WDI to achieve social justice by removing the Song Of The South characters and story, they simply weren't thinking about it back in 2019. WDI's original driving goals behind redoing Splash Mountain were business driven, because they knew that even before Bob Iger's 2020 comments on the film it was unlikely Burbank would ever reverse course and embrace the Song Of The South characters, and thus the characters would remain relatively unknown by parks audiences and no real emotional attachment to that story could be leveraged. There was a minor undercurrent in WDI that Song Of The South wasn't very PC, but it was not a major element to the 2019 proposal to retheme Splash Mountain.

The Tiana concept was chosen as a project worthy of active development because the proposal was able to play up the connections to New Orleans themed food and cuisine, and thus the Food & Beverage departments in the parks could offer Instagram worthy food and drink concoctions for sale. The driving force with Bob Chapek in charge of WDI and the Parks (as he was in 2019 when the proposal was presented and given initial development funding) is to drive revenue across multiple departments; a new parks project has to prove that it is an IP that can translate directly into increased sales in either merchandise, dining, or upcharge experiences, and preferably at least two of those things if not all three.

And so Tiana's story was seen as a way to sell the project by connecting it to dining locations in the parks that already exist (New Orleans Square) or can be re-themed to help support the project (Hungry Bear Restaurant and the aging Pooh store with historically declining sales in Critter Country).

So work had actually been bubbling along on this Tiana Mountain idea for the past year. I asked how this works in WDW because Splash Mountain there is smack in the middle of Frontierland. I was laughingly told that the Tiana project was created with Disneyland in mind, but like many projects it also gets added to WDW as an afterthought. Star Wars Land was designed specifically for Disneyland's current location, and they knew they could wedge it in somewhere in WDW too. The Disneyland setting alongside New Orleans Square and a re-themed Critter Country is the ultimate goal for the project and the artistic vision they are designing for, and later they'll just wedge it into WDW next to Thunder Mountain because no one in Orlando is going to care or give them grief about it.

The other thing I learned was that the entire concept is very early in its development. It won't be opening for years. Under normal circumstances, even if it had gotten the green light from Burbank last month this idea would not have been announced publicly or seen the light of day for at least another 18 months if not longer. But the current political climate and the Twitter mob forced the issue before the ride was ready to be announced. That is why there is only one single piece of artwork available, and it was created quickly as a very generic view of the existing log ride with some characters and visual elements overlaid onto it. The real ride is still subject to many revisions and alterations, so there's no telling what actually is going to happen inside the ride where the show actually takes place. But screens will be included in the new show, and many of the America Sings animatronics will be retired permanently while the budget requires that some get repurposed into Princess & The Frog characters. The gentleman had not heard that the ride system will be changed in any meaningful way in Anaheim. There's no money for that anyway.

The other info I learned from the conversation is that many, many other active WDI projects have been put on indefinite hold at all the parks outside Japan. The sober realization in WDI is that Burbank will need to conserve cash and resources for at least several years, even after the parks, movie studios, cruise line, ESPN, DVC and mass merchandising all get "back to normal" hopefully sometime in 2021. Some of these mothballed construction projects (Tron, Marvel, Toontown, hotels, Anaheim's Downtown Disney) will be sitting silent around the parks for a year or more before they resume work. WDI management is just happy that the Tiana project got announced publicly and the current political climate forced Burbank to commit to it, so at least there is some development work happening in Glendale. But there are many other projects in development that haven't been announced yet that just met their sad demise. Layoffs will be coming to Glendale this fall.

I think that about sums up a chatty conversation that went in several different directions.

Basically the Tiana project had been in development since last year, they actually weren't lying about that like I assumed. But this Tiana project was not initially created out of some noble call to Social Justice, but rather it was initially conceived in 2019 to sell more Instagrammable moments at the adjacent restaurants and gift shops. Pooh and Song Of The South are not hot sellers and are definitely not Instagrammable. Luckily for Burbank and Glendale, they could quickly reposition this Splash Mountain makeover concept as being guided by a noble and lofty goal to bring Social Justice to the magic kingdom and quickly squash an embarrassing Twitter campaign.

Thank you for this write up. I'm gonna have to go ahead and ask you for an invitation the next time you're out at a party 🍻 I suppose with Disney people in the know how, and alcohol is available :hilarious:

I'll just be cautious who I mention my WDWMagic name around because if any of them peruse these forums, I highly doubt i'm a favorite poster LOL.

This is an amazing fail. "Instragrammable" moments are now the goal.. no longer are we being allowed the pleasure of original, innovative, refreshing and amazing creations anymore like Tower of Terror, Expedition Everest, Indiana Jones Adventure, Space Mountain.. Modern Disney just sounds like a bunch of people wanting to keep their jobs and slapping on characters / IP to whatever attraction they can think of. I weep for the parks.

Also if they're going to be trying to save money, wouldn't it make sense to just NOT make this change happen? Regardless of the SotS connection, people do still have an emotional connection to brer rabbit, and ultimately of the best rides there. Maybe it's the merchandising department that's failing? To create relevant products attached to Splash I mean. If Mission Cheapout and chase-a-baby haven't brought any noticeably extra crowds (or money (just using wait times as my source here)), why do they expect this thing to? Perhaps a minority of people propelled this project forward.. I still think it was the wrong move. As usual.

At least there is a silver lining.. all of this money saving after COVID will mean they'll slow down on ruining other rides. Then again, it could also mean less money for maintenance or other activities. Delayed construction, further budget cuts.. But hey at least they're removing Splash 👍 SMH.
 

mickEblu

Well-Known Member
Thank you for this write up. I'm gonna have to go ahead and ask you for an invitation the next time you're out at a party 🍻 I suppose with Disney people in the know how, and alcohol is available :hilarious:

I'll just be cautious who I mention my WDWMagic name around because if any of them peruse these forums, I highly doubt i'm a favorite poster LOL.

This is an amazing fail. "Instragrammable" moments are now the goal.. no longer are we being allowed the pleasure of original, innovative, refreshing and amazing creations anymore like Tower of Terror, Expedition Everest, Indiana Jones Adventure, Space Mountain.. Modern Disney just sounds like a bunch of people wanting to keep their jobs and slapping on characters / IP to whatever attraction they can think of. I weep for the parks.

Also if they're going to be trying to save money, wouldn't it make sense to just NOT make this change happen? Regardless of the SotS connection, people do still have an emotional connection to brer rabbit, and ultimately of the best rides there. Maybe it's the merchandising department that's failing? To create relevant products attached to Splash I mean. If Mission Cheapout and chase-a-baby haven't brought any noticeably extra crowds (or money (just using wait times as my source here)), why do they expect this thing to? Perhaps a minority of people propelled this project forward.. I still think it was the wrong move. As usual.

At least there is a silver lining.. all of this money saving after COVID will mean they'll slow down on ruining other rides. Then again, it could also mean less money for maintenance or other activities. Delayed construction, further budget cuts.. But hey at least they're removing Splash 👍 SMH.


Yeah pretty sad. Think about how they will most likely be removing a good majority of the AAs in Splash. Why, because it ll make the ride better? No, I’d say it’s combination of not wanting to deal with maintenance, imagineers wanting to leave their stamp as well as imagineers not wanting to ruin the immersion of PatF. You know the same guys that probably gave us the hyper real and depressing Galaxies Edge. Interesting because if they really cared about that they wouldn’t be cramming it into an iconic attraction.
 
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