simple economic rules.

bjlc57

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
if I remember my X and Y economic diagrams.. in an open business competition ( unlike the Electric company or the Gas company , and most towns , Cable) the way things work , is if you raise your price the less product that you sell. .Yet, Disney is complaining and laying off cast members because "attendance " and Hotel reservations are " down" at the Parks.. so explain to me again.. like I am a two year old. ( Denzel Washington) why the Walt Disney Company RAISED prices again.. including parking at the resorts and the parks and what not. .
Explain to me .. how raising the price .. the cost of goods.. in the World of Disney, breaks all the simplest of Economic formulas.. and how "raising the price" will now "add more people to the resorts and to the park.. and could you give a an on line 4 credit University course on this .. and how the Disney Company is immune to the rules of economics.. constructive criticism only.. and if you are going to defend.. please site a true economic formula or stance ..instead of saying that every thing Disney does is perfect.. thanks..
 

Chef Mickey

Well-Known Member
The demand for Disney is inelastic.

Disney can and probably should raise prices a lot more before seeing much impact to attendance.

Parks are also too small for the demand due to many factors, but it is what it is until they finish building out projects and announce new ones.

Disney is a for profit company, so they can do whatever they want with pricing. Parks and Resorts certainly don’t make unreasonable margins. 20% operating margin is not insane.
 
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Smiley/OCD

Well-Known Member
As @Chef Mickey said, the profit margin is not over the top by any stretch of the imagination. I don't know if Disney breaks down profits (per destination) or lumps them all together under resorts/parks, but I would venture to say that without knowing details, WDW would probably be the most profitable of the park destinations. Disney is a unique animal in the business world...because of the reputation they have for entertainment, the price of admission would have to significantly rise to unheard of proportions to really have an effect on attendance. IMHO, the only other events that would cause a severe attendance drop off would be another event like 9/11 or a stock market crash like 1929, which I hope (and pray), would never happen again.
 
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RustySpork

Oscar Mayer Memer
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DisneyJoe

Well-Known Member
As @Chef Mickey said, the profit margin is not over the top by any stretch of the imagination. I don't know if Disney breaks down profits (per destination) or lumps them all together under resorts/parks, but I would venture to say that without knowing details, WDW would probably be the most profitable of the park destinations. Disney is a unique animal in the business world...because of the reputation they have for entertainment, the price of admission would have to significantly rise to unheard of proportions to really have an effect on attendance. IMHO, the only other events that would cause a severe attendance drop off would be another event like 9/11 or a stock market crash like 1929, which I hope (and pray), would never happen again.
Years ago they did, but now they report DLR and WDW together.
 

jloucks

Well-Known Member
if I remember my X and Y economic diagrams.. in an open business competition ( unlike the Electric company or the Gas company , and most towns , Cable) the way things work , is if you raise your price the less product that you sell. .Yet, Disney is complaining and laying off cast members because "attendance " and Hotel reservations are " down" at the Parks.. so explain to me again.. like I am a two year old. ( Denzel Washington) why the Walt Disney Company RAISED prices again.. including parking at the resorts and the parks and what not. .
Explain to me .. how raising the price .. the cost of goods.. in the World of Disney, breaks all the simplest of Economic formulas.. and how "raising the price" will now "add more people to the resorts and to the park.. and could you give a an on line 4 credit University course on this .. and how the Disney Company is immune to the rules of economics.. constructive criticism only.. and if you are going to defend.. please site a true economic formula or stance ..instead of saying that every thing Disney does is perfect.. thanks..


It wont. At least, assuming demand doesn't increase as fast, or faster, as price.

I think my first question is "please show me attendance figures", which you will never see. So now you have a capitalist entity telling you one thing (without proof) and making decisions based on what they told you that just so happen to save them money at the expense of the working class. I would just call it an excuse to not sound greedy. But, thats me.

I can tell you, using my peepers, attendance is not down. It is up. Disney is probably spinning stats to their advantage. You cannot say "we are laying off people to buy the CEO a yacht" because that goes over poorly with the working class. ...which is pretty much everybody.

The laws of economics do apply to Disney. They know that the common person is unaware of these laws and therefore unable to call BS on shenanigans that are apparent to anybody with 6+ hours of econ under their belt.
 

thomas998

Well-Known Member
Probably for just that reason...they don't want the shareholders (and the public) to know which parks are producing and which ones aren't.
Well the reality is some of the executive in Disney know which is the most profitable. I would bet my life that Disney has the ability to pull the sales revenue generated from any given store or kiosk in the park and probably pulls those number for internal use on at least quarterly if not monthly basis.

But the reality is that information isn't relevant to the shareholders and providing it would be more like to harm Disney than to do anyone investing in the company any good. It would highlight what is and isn't working and competitors like Universal would be all over that information using it to steal customers from Disney... so don't ever expect to know any of that unless you get a job in the right back offices at Disney.
 

thomas998

Well-Known Member
if I remember my X and Y economic diagrams.. in an open business competition ( unlike the Electric company or the Gas company , and most towns , Cable) the way things work , is if you raise your price the less product that you sell. .Yet, Disney is complaining and laying off cast members because "attendance " and Hotel reservations are " down" at the Parks.. so explain to me again.. like I am a two year old. ( Denzel Washington) why the Walt Disney Company RAISED prices again.. including parking at the resorts and the parks and what not. .
Explain to me .. how raising the price .. the cost of goods.. in the World of Disney, breaks all the simplest of Economic formulas.. and how "raising the price" will now "add more people to the resorts and to the park.. and could you give a an on line 4 credit University course on this .. and how the Disney Company is immune to the rules of economics.. constructive criticism only.. and if you are going to defend.. please site a true economic formula or stance ..instead of saying that every thing Disney does is perfect.. thanks..



Several things going on here.

1) No evidence that attendance is down. Unless they start showing historical and present day attendance number for the individual parks you really can't know if attendance is down or up.

2) Yes if you raise prices you impact demand, but the slope of the demand curve is unknown. I might be very steep or very flat and that slope determines how much you impact demand with any given increase or decrease in price.

3) There are lots of factors in the cost of operating. Energy prices may go up impacting the cost of running the parks, the cost of healthcare provided to employees goes up it impacts the cost of operating the parks, the costs of mouse ears or other items can go up impacting the costs of operating the parks... lots of things you might not think of can impact the cost side and if you don't raise prices enough to cover the cost increases it doesn't matter if you have the same number of visitors every year your park will lose money vs the previous year unless you can cut costs.

4) Remember all the squawking about living wages and raising the minimum wage, when wages go up the cost to the employer is more than simply the difference in previous wage and the new wage. If the increase is 1 dollar that employer has to pay the additional dollar, plus they have an increase in the FICA and medicare amounts they pay. Some people don't realize that while you see 6.2% FICA and 1.45% Medicare that the employer has to match that amount so the dollar increase is really about $1.08 per hour... Then you have to look at the other things like the worker comp that is paid to the state on behalf of every employee they have... way more expenses behind every employee they have than you would ever dream of. Even if wages in Florida don't go up they are still going up for DLR and the way Disney lumps their parks together what happens in DLR impacts how their domestic parks are doing... so don't forget to account for that.

The reason they raised prices is that cost generally go up every year. It would be a rare thing for a business like an amusement park or hotel to see prices drop from one year to the next because at the very least inflation would increase your costs. Now I'm certain they are constantly trying to cut costs at Disney as I have certainly seen areas where that has happened over the past 10 or 15 years that we have been regular visitors... but to be honest the cost cutting has its limits and the low hanging fruit was probably harvested years ago. The end result of that in a business that is trying to cut costs is to start cutting people. The only other option they would have had would be to raise prices more than the have already and for whatever reason they felt that prices couldn't be raise more than they are right now so the only other option is going to be cutting more costs and in this case it means cutting people.

Now what would be interesting to see is the ages of the people they cut. If Disney is like most very large corporation their insurance is really self paid in that while they might have Blue Cross ro United or any other healthcare provider showing up as the employees insurance provider the reality is the insurance provider is little more than a sham because Disney would be reimbursing the insurance provider for all the costs they incurred. Yes you pay premiums to the insurance provider but those premiums are set by both the insurance provider and Disney together. Disney knows that the claims paid by the insurance provider will exceed the amount they get in premiums and Disney knows they will have to pay that difference... which leads to the dirty little secret in corporations, they know that older people cost them more money so when they see a chance to eliminate older workers they know it saves them a lot of money on the healthcare side. It is the reason in lots of layoffs if their are no unions in place the head that roll aren't the youngest they tend to be the oldest because it saves the company the most money even if all the employees were paid the same the saving in healthcare is huge.

So now you've got a lot more to think about than just x and y on a chart... and that's the problem with what you are trying to do. An economics class in college is only going to give you a nice theoretical view of a very simplified situation... in real life there will be a lot more variable that come into play and what may appear simple is rarely that.
 

Hockey89

Well-Known Member
Several things going on here.

1) No evidence that attendance is down. Unless they start showing historical and present day attendance number for the individual parks you really can't know if attendance is down or up.

2) Yes if you raise prices you impact demand, but the slope of the demand curve is unknown. I might be very steep or very flat and that slope determines how much you impact demand with any given increase or decrease in price.

3) There are lots of factors in the cost of operating. Energy prices may go up impacting the cost of running the parks, the cost of healthcare provided to employees goes up it impacts the cost of operating the parks, the costs of mouse ears or other items can go up impacting the costs of operating the parks... lots of things you might not think of can impact the cost side and if you don't raise prices enough to cover the cost increases it doesn't matter if you have the same number of visitors every year your park will lose money vs the previous year unless you can cut costs.

4) Remember all the squawking about living wages and raising the minimum wage, when wages go up the cost to the employer is more than simply the difference in previous wage and the new wage. If the increase is 1 dollar that employer has to pay the additional dollar, plus they have an increase in the FICA and medicare amounts they pay. Some people don't realize that while you see 6.2% FICA and 1.45% Medicare that the employer has to match that amount so the dollar increase is really about $1.08 per hour... Then you have to look at the other things like the worker comp that is paid to the state on behalf of every employee they have... way more expenses behind every employee they have than you would ever dream of. Even if wages in Florida don't go up they are still going up for DLR and the way Disney lumps their parks together what happens in DLR impacts how their domestic parks are doing... so don't forget to account for that.

The reason they raised prices is that cost generally go up every year. It would be a rare thing for a business like an amusement park or hotel to see prices drop from one year to the next because at the very least inflation would increase your costs. Now I'm certain they are constantly trying to cut costs at Disney as I have certainly seen areas where that has happened over the past 10 or 15 years that we have been regular visitors... but to be honest the cost cutting has its limits and the low hanging fruit was probably harvested years ago. The end result of that in a business that is trying to cut costs is to start cutting people. The only other option they would have had would be to raise prices more than the have already and for whatever reason they felt that prices couldn't be raise more than they are right now so the only other option is going to be cutting more costs and in this case it means cutting people.

Now what would be interesting to see is the ages of the people they cut. If Disney is like most very large corporation their insurance is really self paid in that while they might have Blue Cross ro United or any other healthcare provider showing up as the employees insurance provider the reality is the insurance provider is little more than a sham because Disney would be reimbursing the insurance provider for all the costs they incurred. Yes you pay premiums to the insurance provider but those premiums are set by both the insurance provider and Disney together. Disney knows that the claims paid by the insurance provider will exceed the amount they get in premiums and Disney knows they will have to pay that difference... which leads to the dirty little secret in corporations, they know that older people cost them more money so when they see a chance to eliminate older workers they know it saves them a lot of money on the healthcare side. It is the reason in lots of layoffs if their are no unions in place the head that roll aren't the youngest they tend to be the oldest because it saves the company the most money even if all the employees were paid the same the saving in healthcare is huge.

So now you've got a lot more to think about than just x and y on a chart... and that's the problem with what you are trying to do. An economics class in college is only going to give you a nice theoretical view of a very simplified situation... in real life there will be a lot more variable that come into play and what may appear simple is rarely that.
This is excellent and well thought out. For health insurance, they may have someone over the top with cat loses, but probably not with their size.
 

jloucks

Well-Known Member
Several things going on here.

Now what would be interesting to see is the ages of the people they cut.

That could end up with a giant age discrimination lawsuit. Which is why that info will never see the light of day.

Wait... cant that info be requested in via subpoena? It seems like information that could not be protected because it pertains to protected classes.
 

Smiley/OCD

Well-Known Member
Well the reality is some of the executive in Disney know which is the most profitable. I would bet my life that Disney has the ability to pull the sales revenue generated from any given store or kiosk in the park and probably pulls those number for internal use on at least quarterly if not monthly basis.

But the reality is that information isn't relevant to the shareholders and providing it would be more like to harm Disney than to do anyone investing in the company any good. It would highlight what is and isn't working and competitors like Universal would be all over that information using it to steal customers from Disney... so don't ever expect to know any of that unless you get a job in the right back offices at Disney.
ABSOLUTELY AGREE
 

thomas998

Well-Known Member
That could end up with a giant age discrimination lawsuit. Which is why that info will never see the light of day.

Wait... cant that info be requested in via subpoena? It seems like information that could not be protected because it pertains to protected classes.
Someone could sue them, but generally the way a company avoid getting caught is that they will eliminate the older employees that they want to get rid of and then throw in some younger ones so that they can claim it wasn't based on age. The other problem that comes up is finding an employment lawyer to take your case. In a company town like Orlando where the amusement giants control such a huge part of the area you will usually have a hard time finding a good lawyer to take them on. Often times the big players will have retainers with all the major firms in part to insure that those firms don't come after them, they will never admit that but when you have a large company the size of Disney they will usually have more lawyers internally than you could ever find the largest law firms... but the big corporation know how to stack the deck and they do in every way they can.
 

Cheekylittlerobot

Active Member
The demand for Disney is inelastic.

Disney can and probably should raise prices a lot more before seeing much impact to attendance.

Parks are also too small for the demand due to many factors, but it is what it is until they finish building out projects and announce new ones.

Disney is a for profit company, so they can do whatever they want with pricing. Parks and Resorts certainly don’t make unreasonable margins. 20% operating margin is not insane.

You know, if the parks are too small and can only hold a certain amount of people. Why don't they just limit the amount of ticket sold per day? EX: Say that the parks can hold 10,000 people. Only 10,000 tickets should be sold on for each day. June 5th: 10 k tickets sold. June 6th: 10 k tickets sold , etc.

They do this at theaters and sporting events, so why not Disney if crowding is REALLY the problem?(and not simple greed!)
 

networkpro

Well-Known Member
In the Parks
Yes
I wouldn't say that the demand for Disney admission is inelastic as there are substitute goods available and consumption of these goods increase when prices rise. People are complaining about the cost of the complementary goods which they have perceptually chained to the cost of admission Gate+Parking+Mickey Bar+Ears+BoG, but these again are not perfect compliments as they are not necessary purchases. What folks are trying to equate are their indifference curves with others but as valuations differ, they won't coincide.
 

Chef Mickey

Well-Known Member
You know, if the parks are too small and can only hold a certain amount of people. Why don't they just limit the amount of ticket sold per day? EX: Say that the parks can hold 10,000 people. Only 10,000 tickets should be sold on for each day. June 5th: 10 k tickets sold. June 6th: 10 k tickets sold , etc.

They do this at theaters and sporting events, so why not Disney if crowding is REALLY the problem?(and not simple greed!)
That's not realistic to expect a for profit company to do.

If anything, they'll raise prices to control crowds. The parks do have a capacity limit, although I think it's no fun if you're nearing those limits....
 

RustySpork

Oscar Mayer Memer
That's not realistic to expect a for profit company to do.

If anything, they'll raise prices to control crowds. The parks do have a capacity limit, although I think it's no fun if you're nearing those limits....

They also control the entity that sets those limits as well, so they pretty much set their own limits. To their credit, they really cover all the bases.
 

Cheekylittlerobot

Active Member
That's not realistic to expect a for profit company to do.

If anything, they'll raise prices to control crowds. The parks do have a capacity limit, although I think it's no fun if you're nearing those limits....

Honestly so, what? It's actually safer for the guests that way. What if a disaster were to happen and people needed to get out quickly? That's one reason why they have occupancy limits, plus it would be an overall better experience for the guests. I know they are a business, but they need to care more about their guests, cast members, and their overall quality. MONEY ISN'T EVERYTHING DISNEY.

If traveling were cheaper, I would rather go to Disneyland Tokyo, quality seems to be better there. Not sure about pricing though. Why can't Americans have nice things?
 

Chef Mickey

Well-Known Member
Honestly so, what? It's actually safer for the guests that way. What if a disaster were to happen and people needed to get out quickly? That's one reason why they have occupancy limits, plus it would be an overall better experience for the guests. I know they are a business, but they need to care more about their guests, cast members, and their overall quality. MONEY ISN'T EVERYTHING DISNEY.

If traveling were cheaper, I would rather go to Disneyland Tokyo, quality seems to be better there. Not sure about pricing though. Why can't Americans have nice things?
You do understand money is everything in a publicly traded company?

Disney is OWNED by the shareholders, who all expect a return. Disney's management has a fiduciary responsibility to manage our money in a way that maximizes shareholder value.

I love Disney more than anyone, but it's a business and they are going to maximize the profit as best they can.

Again, Disney's margins are public information. The margins made at Disney Parks are totally reasonable. They make 20-25% operating margin at the parks which is 20-25 cents on every dollar brought in, BEFORE taxes. It costs a lot of money to run these parks.

I've been to Tokyo Disney 3 times. While tickets are cheaper, Tokyo is one of the most expensive cities in the world and everything inside Tokyo Disney is similarly priced to WDW. Overall, I spent over $10k+ to visit Tokyo for 7 days with 2 people.
 

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