News Reedy Creek Improvement District and the Central Florida Tourism Oversight District

mmascari

Well-Known Member
If RCID didn’t exist Disney’s road projects would also need to be added to the long term plans for the counties and ultimately would lead to either higher taxes, other projects getting pushed back or cancelled to cut costs or most likely a combination of both.
I think it's safe to say it would definitely lead to worse traffic getting into the Disney parks.

On the one hand, the local tax payer doesn't want to sit in traffic.
On the other, they can avoid the roads leading to the parks and likely don't really care if tourists are stuck in traffic.

At least they don't care until it spills out far enough to impact them, or drives tourism down. Both of which take a long time and are much to late for a simple road update to solve.
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
Even without the District or municipalities, it seems unlikely that new roads at Walt Disney World would have been built by the county. You’re allowed to build and maintain private roads.

Think about something like a new subdivision. They don’t wait around for the local government to build the roads, the developer builds the roads and often most of the infrastructure. Many then hand over the roads to the local government but they don’t have to (such as gated communities) and I’m not sure the government has to accept the roads if they don’t want them.
 

mmascari

Well-Known Member
Even without the District or municipalities, it seems unlikely that new roads at Walt Disney World would have been built by the county. You’re allowed to build and maintain private roads.
Definitely true.

But, can you imagine Osceola Parkway being a private road instead? Push the entrance gates all the way out to the I4 exit ramps. Or, Buena Vista Dr or World Drive?

Way back when, Disney would have needed to keep ownership of all those roads and not transfer them to RCID. Now that they have, transferring them back to Disney would be difficult. Probably not impossible, but nobody has proposed that.

Likewise, wasn't there a recent project that added dedicated Disney bus lanes to some of these roads? If they were private roads, that would still work. But, if they were public maintained by the county, I cannot imagine the county deciding to add dedicated lanes for just one business was a good plan. I suppose they could have done it as toll lanes. Just charged a few million in tolls to cover the cost.....

Similarly, there's probably a bunch of liability differences that come into play. Today, if two cars get into an accident on World Drive and one of them blames a pot hole for causing the accident. It's a public roadway. If World Drive had never been turned into a public road, but was still a private road, is that more like an accident in a parking lot then?

Imagine if all the RCID owned land was still Disney owned land. One huge all private land continuous parcel with private everything. That would give some new meaning to being in the Disney bubble. :)
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
Definitely true.

But, can you imagine Osceola Parkway being a private road instead? Push the entrance gates all the way out to the I4 exit ramps. Or, Buena Vista Dr or World Drive?

Way back when, Disney would have needed to keep ownership of all those roads and not transfer them to RCID. Now that they have, transferring them back to Disney would be difficult. Probably not impossible, but nobody has proposed that.

Likewise, wasn't there a recent project that added dedicated Disney bus lanes to some of these roads? If they were private roads, that would still work. But, if they were public maintained by the county, I cannot imagine the county deciding to add dedicated lanes for just one business was a good plan. I suppose they could have done it as toll lanes. Just charged a few million in tolls to cover the cost.....

Similarly, there's probably a bunch of liability differences that come into play. Today, if two cars get into an accident on World Drive and one of them blames a pot hole for causing the accident. It's a public roadway. If World Drive had never been turned into a public road, but was still a private road, is that more like an accident in a parking lot then?

Imagine if all the RCID owned land was still Disney owned land. One huge all private land continuous parcel with private everything. That would give some new meaning to being in the Disney bubble. :)
Looking at the county’s interactive mapping, Osceola Parkway crosses over to Disney property just east of the parking lot for Disney’s Animal Kingdom. I don’t know if there aren’t other agreements, easements, etc. in play but the rest of it is shown as being on District right of way. How are incidents on that stretch handles? Why would it be different than hitting a pot hole next door at Orange Lake?

I believe the Lynx buses and other hotel buses also use the bus lanes on Buena Vista Dr. The same reason it would have been a problem for a county to build lanes for a private company would have made it a problem for the District to build bus lanes just for Disney. That said, the Kidman Rd extension is also getting bus lanes and that is very much at the behest of Universal Orlando Resort which will use them to transport guests between the north and south campuses. Like Buena Vista Dr, other buses (and Florida drivers) will use the lanes, but most of the traffic is sure to be one company’s buses.
 

GoofGoof

Premium Member
I can also see more red tape coming into play. Governments, state and federal, seem to delay things through the whole selection process of contractors, funding, and prioritization. I hope that this doesn't happen but it seems unlikely.
This is likely to happen in this situation more so than normal. If the Governor is appointing board members with no oversight they will be people he is rewarding for loyalty. In most situations those in charge still need to face citizens in future elections, but this is not the case if the board is appointed not elected. Since the local taxpayers will have no say the board can hire who they want to pave roads at whatever price they want. There will be limits and formalized procedures in place but we all know those can be circumvented to some extent. Any cost overruns can then be charged back to the taxpayer in the form of tax increases.
 

GoofGoof

Premium Member
Even without the District or municipalities, it seems unlikely that new roads at Walt Disney World would have been built by the county. You’re allowed to build and maintain private roads.

Think about something like a new subdivision. They don’t wait around for the local government to build the roads, the developer builds the roads and often most of the infrastructure. Many then hand over the roads to the local government but they don’t have to (such as gated communities) and I’m not sure the government has to accept the roads if they don’t want them.
I imagine some of the roads would have never been built and others may have been paid for in part or fully by Disney if RCID never existed. In most cases if they were highways they would be turned over to the county for maintenance. Who will be footing the maintenance bill for the road project Universal is paying half for? Did they agree to pay half the maintenance and upkeep costs going forward?
 

Rich Brownn

Well-Known Member
Either way it’s still local taxpayers footing part of the bill for a road that obviously benefits Universal enough that they are footing the other half of the bill. Every RCID road project through Disney property was paid for by RCID taxpayers only. That’s a very significant savings for every other local taxpayer. If RCID didn’t exist Disney’s road projects would also need to be added to the long term plans for the counties and ultimately would lead to either higher taxes, other projects getting pushed back or cancelled to cut costs or most likely a combination of both.
The interchanges that lead into WDW were not paid for by RCID. In fact the main overpass which mostly sits in Osceola county ended up being paid for by Orange.
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
I imagine some of the roads would have never been built and others may have been paid for in part or fully by Disney if RCID never existed. In most cases if they were highways they would be turned over to the county for maintenance. Who will be footing the maintenance bill for the road project Universal is paying half for? Did they agree to pay half the maintenance and upkeep costs going forward?
How would a county be forced to take ownership of something?
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
If the district were completely dissolved without a replacement, wouldn't all of the district's assets be turned over to the counties by default?
Yes, the current dissolution legislation does intend for the District’s assets to go to the counties because the District does pre-date the municipalities.

We’re talking though if no form of local government had ever been created and Walt Disney World was just within unincorporated county land. What became World Dr is on some of the earliest drawings of Walt Disney World. Win an alternate timeline without the District or municipalities, why would the counties have to accept ownership of World Dr if it was offered? Why could they not tell Disney they had to keep it?

There was an issue a few years ago in San Francisco where the city took possession of a private street due to non-payment of taxes. If I am recalled correctly the owners let it lapse thinking the city would take it and voila, they’re free of an expense (although I may be getting that wrong and it was just due to negligence). Either way, the city did not just keep the street, they turned around and sold it off.
 

GoofGoof

Premium Member
How would a county be forced to take ownership of something?
Why would they be forced? Are they forced to take ownership of the road being built for Universal? Companies have lobbyists and as very significant parts of the local economy they will ask for and get a lot of what they need. In all reality the roads and infrastructure are necessary for economic development which greatly benefits the area so they probably should.
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
Why would they be forced? Are they forced to take ownership of the road being built for Universal? Companies have lobbyists and as very significant parts of the local economy they will ask for and get a lot of what they need. In all reality the roads and infrastructure are necessary for economic development which greatly benefits the area so they probably should.
People keep talking about how the county would have had to pay for all of the roads at Walt Disney World. Private developments build, own and maintain their own rides. There’s nothing that requires roads to be built and maintained by a local government.

If there was no District or municipalities, the county would have no obligation to build or maintain World Dr which existed fully within Disney owned property. Disney could build World Dr and try to transfer ownership to the county, but why would the county have to accept that transfer of ownership?

The Kirkman Road extension is a little different in that it already existed on county plans but it also crosses and interfaces with different owners. Universal, also wanting it, offered to provide much of the land without an eminent domain fight, financing and actually getting it built. I’m not able to easily find the maintenance agreement but there wouldn’t be a need for such an agreement if the county was assuming full responsibility.
 

drnilescrane

Well-Known Member
Which interchange? Are we talking about roads that are part of RCID?
It was the I-4/Osceola interchange, and I think it happened about 10 years ago. When originally built in the mid 1990s it didn't have the full set of ramps because it's too close to the Epcot interchange. What they got Orange to pay for was the study to convince FDOT to rebuild the interchange, complete with flyovers to mitigate the weaving that would occur.

They didn't go to Osceola County for funding presumably because they were still upset at Disney for convincing them to build it in the first place. The road beyond Disney really only exists to provide alternate access to the FL Turnpike towards Miami from Disney property. This is because FDOT and what is now CFX wouldn't agree to build an interchange between 417 and the Turnpike. The anticipated toll revenue for Osceola Parkway never appeared.
 

pdude81

Well-Known Member
People keep talking about how the county would have had to pay for all of the roads at Walt Disney World. Private developments build, own and maintain their own rides. There’s nothing that requires roads to be built and maintained by a local government.

If there was no District or municipalities, the county would have no obligation to build or maintain World Dr which existed fully within Disney owned property. Disney could build World Dr and try to transfer ownership to the county, but why would the county have to accept that transfer of ownership?

The Kirkman Road extension is a little different in that it already existed on county plans but it also crosses and interfaces with different owners. Universal, also wanting it, offered to provide much of the land without an eminent domain fight, financing and actually getting it built. I’m not able to easily find the maintenance agreement but there wouldn’t be a need for such an agreement if the county was assuming full responsibility.
Are those roads owned by Disney or RCID though? If the roads are RCID property and RCID is dissolved, I'd assume the ROWs would become unincorporated parts of the county and *not* revert to Disney property.

*missed a word earlier
 
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lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
Are those roads owned by Disney or RCID though? If the roads are RCID property and RCID is dissolved, I'd assume the ROWs would become unincorporated parts of the county and revert to Disney property.
I’m not talking about dissolution. I’m talking about if the District and municipalities never existed in the first place.
 

mmascari

Well-Known Member
People keep talking about how the county would have had to pay for all of the roads at Walt Disney World. Private developments build, own and maintain their own rides. There’s nothing that requires roads to be built and maintained by a local government.
I don't think anyone suggested the county would need to deal with roads in a scenario where RCID never existed.

There's the scenario where RCID never existed and WDW owned all the land and roads, never transitioned any of it to a government entity.

There's the world that exists today, where WDW transferred lots of stuff to RCID. Where RCID takes care of it and collects taxes to fund that. Taxes that are almost exclusively paid by Disney.

There's the world where RCID is dissolved and replaced by nothing. Where the county now is forced to take over. Not forced by Disney, but by the change from many government jurisdictions to less jurisdictions and the transfer between government jurisdictions.


In the first one, I don't think anyone thinks that WDW could force anyone to take over anything. Even in the second, Disney cannot force RCID to take over a road. What they can do is elect RCID government who agree that RCID should take over a road. That's not forcing them to though. Subtle, but different.

In the third, Disney's ability to elect government that agrees with them is diminished, but not eliminated. Can you imagine two candidates running for county government. Once that opposes Disney something and one that supports it. Disney could pour untold amounts of money into helping them get elected. It could be the most well funded and largest spend on a county election ever.

Using this map: https://www.rcid.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/RCID2020.pdf

In the first scenario, where RCID never existed, all the red roads would be grey WDW roads instead. In this scenario, it's certainly possible WDW might want to transfer some roads to a government jurisdiction, but nothing could force it. There's probably reasons a jurisdiction would want or not want to take over some roads.

In this scenario, I imagine toll plaza's at the boarders where the red roads start. A real and true Disney bubble where you're on Disney property the entire time not bouncing in and out of it. In this corporate compound vision, they could allow Minnie Van service everywhere, but force ride shares only at the boarders. People could take a bus or Minnie Van from Magic Kingdom to the Hotel Plaza Boulevard & South Apopka Vineland Road intersection to pick up an Uber headed East. No need to allow Uber pickups within the private compound. :bawling: It might be good that this is an imaginary scenario. :)


PS: I should clearly never own a 27,000 acre compound.
 

GoofGoof

Premium Member
It was the I-4/Osceola interchange, and I think it happened about 10 years ago. When originally built in the mid 1990s it didn't have the full set of ramps because it's too close to the Epcot interchange. What they got Orange to pay for was the study to convince FDOT to rebuild the interchange, complete with flyovers to mitigate the weaving that would occur.

They didn't go to Osceola County for funding presumably because they were still upset at Disney for convincing them to build it in the first place. The road beyond Disney really only exists to provide alternate access to the FL Turnpike towards Miami from Disney property. This is because FDOT and what is now CFX wouldn't agree to build an interchange between 417 and the Turnpike. The anticipated toll revenue for Osceola Parkway never appeared.
That‘s kinda my point. That interchange isn’t part of RCID and obviously directly benefits Disney but TWDC didn’t pay for it out of pocket. The local government paid for it using taxpayer dollars and I’m sure at the urging of Disney. We don’t know what would have happened in the past without RCID or what will happen in the future if it’s gone, but IMHO the local taxpayers would be footing more of the bill for roads (both construction and maintenance) without RCID. I thought that was a pretty obvious statement but apparently others disagree and think Disney would have just paid for every road themselves out of pocket and would pay to maintain them too. It’s an academic debate and we will never know the answer.
 

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