Rant about some theming issues at Liberty Square (and beyond!)

rodserling27

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
Had a brief solo trip to WDW last weekend through Tuesday. (Solo trips are the best kind.) I have serious issues with Liberty Square. No, I'm not talking about burnt-out lightbulbs or broken AAs. Everything looked good from that standpoint. This is way more nit-picky! For a company that takes pride in details, there are some huge holes in what I'm about to point out.

Warning: This is stuff that most normal people (aka NOT us on here) would not even think about. And possibly some stuff that will make you, the die-hard WDWMagic fan, think I'M crazy! Forgive me if this is all in another thread somewhere, but I'm terrible at searching and didn't come across much of it.

Here we go.

Let's talk about the overall theming. It is a distinctly Colonial themed part of the park. This is where the problem begins. First is the music. My sister and I could have sworn the music loop was back to the original colonial version in January. Last weekend, it was the newer one with the Sousa marches. Who thought this was a good idea? So ALL of the architecture and costumes scream "COLONIAL" to me, yet Sousa is a distinctly LATE 1800s/early 1900s composer. Did they just think that songs like E.E. Bagley's "Under The Double Eagle" or Sousa's "The Liberty Bell" would sound "better" than the colonial music? It's great music, don't get me wrong, but it doesn't belong in a COLONIAL-era part of the park. That would be like playing the Beatles in Fantasyland and saying "well they're European, like most of these rides, right?" Am I crazy for thinking that is this a is a major failure on Disney's part? Sousa is as American as Apple Pie and Baseball, but his marches don't belong in a land themed to Colonial era America. Actually, from a music history perspective, they would fit better on Main Street U.S.A. than anywhere else! (I do like the new MSUSA loop by the way.)

As I walked to Frontierland, I found that the Liberty Square loop continues to play LOUDLY out of the speakers as far down as the Frontierland Shootin' Arcade!!! That stupid frontier themed meet n' greet with Donald (?) has the Sousa music coming out of the speakers! The music transitions so well in every other part of the park, but it's really frustrating to look at the Diamond Horseshoe Revue and hear marching band music blasting instead of the acoustic cowboy music that makes Frontierland so great. What on earth is going on here? Something being broadcast to the wrong channels? This must be something they can fix.

Let's talk about the bride scene in the Haunted Mansion that had serious changes in the 2007 refurb. I hadn't thought of this for a long time. All of the wedding photos in the attic are dated in the late 1800s. Why? Isn't this supposed to be a colonial era mansion?? The mansion itself is purposely designed with Gothic revival architecture. So why are all the wedding photos dated from the 1860s? All of the other ghosts are wearing period-era costumes, so why did they seriously drop the ball with this one? Poor theming to say the least. (I have other serious issues with the bride, but I'll save them for another time). I feel like imagineers couldn't make up their mind if they wanted Colonial or Victorian era stuff in HM.

This reminds me of late 90s or early 2000s-era movies have invaded a land that's supposed to be based on the concept of Tomorrow. Last I checked, there was nothing futuristic about Buzz Lightyear, Monster's Inc., or Lilo & Stitch. Don't get me wrong, Buzz is a great ride, and I do enjoy the Laugh Floor occasionally. But they definitely don't belong in a place called Tomorrowland. It's like they can't decide what Tomorrowland should really be.

The last bit isn't really about theming, but I want to add that I think the George W. Bush and Barack Obama AA's in the Hall of Presidents are the worst looking of the bunch. Perhaps it's because we live in a day and age where we are used to seeing the President constantly, and it's just harder to nail their look when we are so familiar with them. But President Bush looks nothing like him, and President Obama doesn't quite have the eyes right and looks to me like a creepy version of the real dude. Anyone agree?

Ok, rant over! :)
 
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Cmdr_Crimson

Well-Known Member
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IMO while it is a big location it's sandwiched between two bigger lands Fantasyland & Frontierland and now with the strange transition by HM & The Tangled Toilets it's like they want to move the Mansion into FL like they have it in TDL..
 

Animaniac93-98

Well-Known Member
I believe Obama was the first president not to have been sculpted by Blaine Gibson. I blame this for the disconnect in quality.

I agree about the music loop. A good example of Disney wasting money on something that didn't need to be "fixed".

HM's interiror is north-east Victorian, like The Haunting, which makes even less sense in DL's southern plantation home (but I chalked that up to the ride very much reflecting it's work-in-progress design status up until the last minute). I guess they figured it wouldn't matter on the inside whether it fit the land.
 

FettFan

Well-Known Member
Most of my thoughts on LS can be found here.

I also really wish they would get rid of the "open sewer" motif on the walkways and go back to the original cobblestone streets.

Though perhaps it's a political statement about Washington DC?

Think about it...you (average voter) must cross a river of **** if you want to know what our elected officials are doing.

And when you make it to Washington, what do you find there?


A bunch of dummies in suits who can only repeat back what someone else wrote for them!
 

FettFan

Well-Known Member
The last bit isn't really about theming, but I want to add that I think the George W. Bush and Barack Obama AA's in the Hall of Presidents are the worst looking of the bunch. Perhaps it's because we live in a day and age where we are used to seeing the President constantly, and it's just harder to nail their look when we are so familiar with them. But President Bush looks nothing like him, and President Obama doesn't quite have the eyes right and looks to me like a creepy version of the real dude. Anyone agree?

Major Disagree on the hilighted point.

You know who else we see practically everywhere in this day and age?


And yet, this:



By comparison, George W. Bush was laughably bad.

(and John Adams is envisioning the audience naked)


I think in part it's because....well, this is the Hall of Presidents.
The majority of people who go to HoP are looking for one thing and one thing only: air conditioning.
If you get Bush or Obama wrong...it's not really going to matter. Heck, we vacation at Disney to GET AWAY from these people!
 

rodserling27

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
Major Disagree on the hilighted point.

You know who else we see practically everywhere in this day and age?


And yet, this:



By comparison, George W. Bush was laughably bad.

(and John Adams is envisioning the audience naked)


I think in part it's because....well, this is the Hall of Presidents.
The majority of people who go to HoP are looking for one thing and one thing only: air conditioning.
If you get Bush or Obama wrong...it's not really going to matter. Heck, we vacation at Disney to GET AWAY from these people!
NICE post! Excellent points. And yeah, GWB is laughably bad looking in the HoP. For a man with such a distinctive face and look, they messed that one up bad!
 

AndyS2992

Well-Known Member
This reminds me of late 90s or early 2000s-era movies have invaded a land that's supposed to be based on the concept of Tomorrow. Last I checked, there was nothing futuristic about Buzz Lightyear, Monster's Inc., or Lilo & Stitch. Don't get me wrong, Buzz is a great ride, and I do enjoy the Laugh Floor occasionally. But they definitely don't belong in a place called Tomorrowland. It's like they can't decide what Tomorrowland should really be.

Buzz Lightyear: An Astronaut, which fits with Tomorrowland's space/future theme
Stitch: Is an alien, which also fits the theme
Monster Inc: Um, yeah I'm stumped, would suit DHS better.
 
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rct247

Well-Known Member
The parks are meant to be completely logical.

After all, how is a Polynesian tiki room across from Agrabah and Aladdin's carpets? How is it that the new Pirates Adventure game after you pass under the Frontierland sign? How do the Incredibles, Stitch, Monsters, the Speedway and even Carousel of Prorgress (which is dated now) fit into Tomorrowland? How does the new Mermaid attraction fit in a land-locked Fantasyland Forest? Splash Mountain is smack dab in the middle of a clearly western United States part of Frontierland. Rapunzel's tower can bee seen clearly from Liberty Square and Frontierland. How is it that the Beast's castle is perched up on a mountain and yet, we enter directly into the ballroom at ground level? Pixie's in Adventureland? Much of the music on Main Street, especially during Christmas, isn't complete dated accurately. A European castle at the end of an American Main Street? Visiting the vastness of outer space inside a mountain? Riverboat in colonial America? How can there be multiple Dumbos? Stitch escapes to Disney World?

How were we expected to believe that we could take a hydrolator down to the bottom of the sea in the middle of Florida? How does Finding Nemo fit in Dinoland USA? Modern day G-Force Records on Sunset Blvd dated from the late 1930s/1940s? Andy's room on the campus of Pixar Studios? Why would you build an entire ski resort in Florida (known for not getting snow) after just one freak winter blizzard?
 

FettFan

Well-Known Member
Stitchs: Is an alien, which also fits the theme

Not...quite...

See, Stitch presents a strange rift in the space-time continuum.

The Magic Kingdom is on Earth. Tomorrowland, being part of the Magic Kingdom, is also ON EARTH.

Yet they have no idea where Earth is, or even how to pronounce the name?
And it turns out that you aren't REALLY on Earth at all.

Despite the fact that you are totally really on Earth as soon as you leave that abomination.


It's like the show writers just farted out something at the last minute without giving any thought to it. "Okay, we've got Stitch...now what?"
 

rodserling27

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
The parks are meant to be completely logical.

After all, how is a Polynesian tiki room across from Agrabah and Aladdin's carpets? How is it that the new Pirates Adventure game after you pass under the Frontierland sign? How do the Incredibles, Stitch, Monsters, the Speedway and even Carousel of Prorgress (which is dated now) fit into Tomorrowland? How does the new Mermaid attraction fit in a land-locked Fantasyland Forest? Splash Mountain is smack dab in the middle of a clearly western United States part of Frontierland. Rapunzel's tower can bee seen clearly from Liberty Square and Frontierland. How is it that the Beast's castle is perched up on a mountain and yet, we enter directly into the ballroom at ground level? Pixie's in Adventureland? Much of the music on Main Street, especially during Christmas, isn't complete dated accurately. A European castle at the end of an American Main Street? Visiting the vastness of outer space inside a mountain? Riverboat in colonial America? How can there be multiple Dumbos? Stitch escapes to Disney World?

How were we expected to believe that we could take a hydrolator down to the bottom of the sea in the middle of Florida? How does Finding Nemo fit in Dinoland USA? Modern day G-Force Records on Sunset Blvd dated from the late 1930s/1940s? Andy's room on the campus of Pixar Studios? Why would you build an entire ski resort in Florida (known for not getting snow) after just one freak winter blizzard?

Haha, thanks for the sarcasm. :) Made me laugh. I have no problem with blurring lines and bending reality. After all WDW is supposed to be magical. Yep, a European Castle at the end of Main Street USA makes no sense. But other than the few laughs, a lot of what you bring up I actually do have issue with!! I hate that new Fantasyland totally ruins the European motif of the original. Agrabah DOES NOT fit in with what is otherwise a near-flawlessly themed area of Adevntureland. Splash Mountain is supposed to be what, Georgia? Yep, doesn't fit a damn bit in an area called "Frontierland." Works much better in Disneyland as critter country.

Rock 'n' Roller Coaster is woefully out of place too! Love that ride, but hate where it is. Totally destroys the theming. (Like a certain hat I know too...) I have plenty of issues with the Toy Story thing in DHS too. Finding Nemo absolutely does not belong in a place called Dinoland USA - I hate it! There's a different between proper theming and make-believe. I'll suspend my disbelief that I somehow got to the ocean in the Living Seas, because WDW is in Florida, yes, but the "magic" transports you elsewhere. However, if the Living Seas had Aerosmith at the bottom of the ocean, I would have issue with it!

I forgot the pixies are in Adventureland. Come to think of it, yep, they don't belong there. But neither does a giant costumed mouse on main street. Or a mouse who seems to be able to be in MK in multiple locations at once, AND in Epcot, AND in DHS AND in AK. All at once!! :) But all of this is make-believe. I can pretend that these characters roam these areas of the Magic Kingdom when only I am there. But I am taken out of place and time when Sousa music is BLASTING as I walk into a shootin' arcade. That's poor show to me. Splash Mountain may be horribly out of place in Frontierland, but at least the 2-hour queue loop and the music ON the attraction is appropriately themed to western country style music, with banjos, acoustic guitars and fiddles! Even if it's largely music from a 1940s film, it's stylized properly.

The same goes for the music on Main Street USA. It's all stylized as orchestra and band arrangements similar to the ragtime music from that time period. If they had Jack White playing "It's a Long Way to Tipperary" on his electric guitar or Ben Folds Five doing a version of "Maple Leaf Rag" with their fuzzed out bass and drum set, I would be upset. Both Jack and Ben are American artists playing American tunes, but it wouldn't be the right style. (For example, a 1950s song like "Dearie" doesn't really belong in MSUSA but it is stylized to fit in there so it's OK. Same goes for the showtunes which fictionally take place in that time period [like the ones from Oklahoma!], but Sousa is NOT stylistically fitting for Colonial area land.)

My point is, changing something that WAS accurate for something that doesn't quite belong is stupid. Putting an attraction in that stretches our disbelief at the expense of having a fun new place to visit is a little different to me, and while I don't necessarily agree with it, it's a less serious offense than what happened with the Liberty Square loop music. But I do have contentions to a degree with stuff like that too. :)

Buzz Lightyear: An Astronaut, which fits with Tomorrowland's space/future theme
Stitchs: Is an alien, which also fits the theme
Monster Inc: Um, yeah I'm stumped, would suit DHS better.
Good points!! Didn't think of it that way. Perhaps I'm not so much upset with Buzz then. He's a spaceman, that's futuristic, just as Space Mountain is in that calssy retro/futuristic way!

Not...quite...

See, Stitch presents a strange rift in the space-time continuum.

The Magic Kingdom is on Earth. Tomorrowland, being part of the Magic Kingdom, is also ON EARTH.

Yet they have no idea where Earth is, or even how to pronounce the name?
And it turns out that you aren't REALLY on Earth at all.

Despite the fact that you are totally really on Earth as soon as you leave that abomination.


It's like the show writers just farted out something at the last minute without giving any thought to it. "Okay, we've got Stitch...now what?"
Agreed 100%!
 
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StarWarsGirl

Well-Known Member
Let's talk about the bride scene in the Haunted Mansion that had serious changes in the 2007 refurb. I hadn't thought of this for a long time. All of the wedding photos in the attic are dated in the late 1800s. Why? Isn't this supposed to be a colonial era mansion?? The mansion itself is purposely designed with Gothic revival architecture. So why are all the wedding photos dated from the 1860s? All of the other ghosts are wearing period-era costumes, so why did they seriously drop the ball with this one? Poor theming to say the least. (I have other serious issues with the bride, but I'll save them for another time). I feel like imagineers couldn't make up their mind if they wanted Colonial or Victorian era stuff in HM.
Because photography wasn't invented until the 1800s, so I think it would be odd to see photos dated in the 1700s instead of the 1800s ;) .

They didn't really drop the ball on it. Those style costumes existed in the 1800s. You should note, though, that one major style, Wigs, from the 1700s is not present in the mansion, therefore indicating that it takes place in the 1800s. Given that it's DL counterpart is in New Orleans Square and Louisiana was not an original colony, this makes sense.

Also, Pirates of the Caribbean in Disneyland is located in New Orleans Squareo_O. Now that's trying to make something fit the theming
 

Scuttle

Well-Known Member
I think they gave up on transitions. The tangled bathroom are hideous next to Mansion like that and doesn't fit at all with the Small World facade. And obviously the hub that use to play as the ultimate transition was destroyed years back. The transition from Fantasyland to SC is also hideous as is the sign. The Adventureland to Frontierland transition is the last great transition left. Hopefully they'll leave it alone.
 
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Kuzcotopia

Well-Known Member
I agree that they gave up. Which is too bad, because if you start at the hub, walk through Liberty Square and into Frontierland, the architecture is supposed to tell a consistent story, travelling forward in time.

Liberty Square, IMO, is the real missed opportunity. Right now, it's a place to get a waffle sandwich on you way to do something better.
 

Disneyhead'71

Well-Known Member
I don't believe that Liberty Square is supposed to be set in actual Colonial times. It feels much more like a "historical" park than Colonial Philadelphia. If it were actually set in Colonial times the Liberty Bell would be at the top of Independence Hall, not on commemorative display with a nice brass plaque.

And it's funny that you mention Jack White, and I do get your point about The White Stripes, but Jack is a huge fan of American Heritage music. And while not MSUSA, I could easily see his music being used around Splash Mt. or possibly even Frontierland.

 

Chuckles

New Member
Because photography wasn't invented until the 1800s, so I think it would be odd to see photos dated in the 1700s instead of the 1800s ;) .

Exactly what i was thinking, and when I think of going into a haunted house it's an old abandoned house with ghosts from the past, the ghosts don't have be all from the same time period.

Also, Pirates of the Caribbean in Disneyland is located in New Orleans Squareo_O. Now that's trying to make something fit the theming

Actually New Orleans had some pretty famous pirates like Jean Laffite, and isn't a stretch to think they may have easily sailed to the carribean, now going from a island in the south pacific to the caribean is a bit much, but I guess if you can take a jungle cruise on rivers from different continents without crossing the ocean...

Sorry about adding my comment in the middle of your quote, I don't do a lot of commenting on here.
 
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Scuttle

Well-Known Member
I agree that they gave up. Which is too bad, because if you start at the hub, walk through Liberty Square and into Frontierland, the architecture is supposed to tell a consistent story, travelling forward in time.

Liberty Square, IMO, is the real missed opportunity. Right now, it's a place to get a waffle sandwich on you way to do something better.
Even better was starting from fantasyland and going from Peter Pans Flight to Columbia Harbor House. You were suppose to be crossing the Atlantic. The signs for the Columbia Harbor House depict this, but now with Tangled it's just not the same.
 

Cmdr_Crimson

Well-Known Member
Not...quite...

See, Stitch presents a strange rift in the space-time continuum.

The Magic Kingdom is on Earth. Tomorrowland, being part of the Magic Kingdom, is also ON EARTH.

Yet they have no idea where Earth is, or even how to pronounce the name?
And it turns out that you aren't REALLY on Earth at all.

Despite the fact that you are totally really on Earth as soon as you leave that abomination.


It's like the show writers just farted out something at the last minute without giving any thought to it. "Okay, we've got Stitch...now what?"

Also another strange thing about that attraction....
It's supposed to be taking place Prior to the first Movie..YET Stitch Calls out for Lilo and he goes to Flor-E-Duh so he's been to E-Arth before...
 

FettFan

Well-Known Member
[QUOTE="StarWarsGirl95]

Also, Pirates of the Caribbean in Disneyland is located in New Orleans Squareo_O. Now that's trying to make something fit the theming[/QUOTE]

BINGO.

New Orleans wasn't founded until 1718.

The last major Caribbean pirate, Jack Rackham was hanged in 1720....it was barely a town at that point.

New Orleans itself didn't become a major port until the 1750s.
 
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