PERMITS

[Disney Irish]

Guardians is just Ellen and the tunnel connecting to the new building right? It’s similar to the rockin’ setupView attachment 367331

So maybe I'm having trouble here and just plain dense, but 4.2 acres (Epcot GotG) is more than 2.7 acres (area behind DCA GotG) is it not? Meaning that a Epcot GotG sized attraction (show building and queue) and the undoubted gift shop that goes along with it will not fit.

So again I don't see how they can build new BoH buildings and keep all those existing BoH buildings and still put Phase 2 here. I just don't buy it, something doesn't add up here.

Maybe someone can explain it to me so a 5 year old can understand it, because I'm just not getting it. So unless Phase 2 is going to the Backlot, which I actually could believe, I just don't see it.

 

[Old Mouseketeer]

So maybe I'm having trouble here and just plain dense, but 4.2 acres (Epcot GotG) is more than 2.7 acres (area behind DCA GotG) is it not? Meaning that a Epcot GotG sized attraction (show building and queue) and the undoubted gift shop that goes along with it will not fit.

So again I don't see how they can build new BoH buildings and keep all those existing BoH buildings and still put Phase 2 here. I just don't buy it, something doesn't add up here.

Maybe someone can explain it to me so a 5 year old can understand it, because I'm just not getting it. So unless Phase 2 is going to the Backlot, which I actually could believe, I just don't see it.

No, you don't see it. They are running out of BOH to move off-site. The biggest chunk of unused space is Building 100, the merch. warehouse North of the Parade building and SW:GE. Of the four BOH buildings I spoke of at DCA, at least 75% of the function has to stay on-site, and the space for those functions has been frozen for some years. They've been incredibly foolish with space at DCA and now they're just going to have to live with their choices.

And the new BOH building behind Racers is replacing the sprawl of trailers with a much smaller footprint.

What exactly do you think they are going to put in the unannounced Phase 2? What are they going to build that's bigger than RotR? We know it's not going to be the size of FL Guardians. The space I outlined is bigger than DL's Space Mountain. You don't even know what they're going to build, but you insist that four relatively new and very essential BOH buildings have to go with absolutely no understanding of what they contain or any concept of where they can move, other than off-property (which is not possible, no matter what you believe).

Do you know people who have worked in ANY of those buildings? Because I do. And I'm not willing to compromise them by revealing any more of what they have shared with me about behind-the-scenes operations because I don't believe any facts are going to dissuade you. You're arguing that the remaining space isn't big enough for a heffalump and you don't even know how big a heffalump is.

 

[Disney Irish]

No, you don't see it. They are running out of BOH to move off-site. The biggest chunk of unused space is Building 100, the merch. warehouse North of the Parade building and SW:GE. Of the four BOH buildings I spoke of at DCA, at least 75% of the function has to stay on-site, and the space for those functions has been frozen for some years. They've been incredibly foolish with space at DCA and now they're just going to have to live with their choices.

And the new BOH building behind Racers is replacing the sprawl of trailers with a much smaller footprint.

What exactly do you think they are going to put in the unannounced Phase 2? What are they going to build that's bigger than RotR? We know it's not going to be the size of FL Guardians. The space I outlined is bigger than DL's Space Mountain. You don't even know what they're going to build, but you insist that four relatively new and very essential BOH buildings have to go with absolutely no understanding of what they contain or any concept of where they can move, other than off-property (which is not possible, no matter what you believe).

Do you know people who have worked in ANY of those buildings? Because I do. And I'm not willing to compromise them by revealing any more of what they have shared with me about behind-the-scenes operations because I don't believe any facts are going to dissuade you. You're arguing that the remaining space isn't big enough for a heffalump and you don't even know how big a heffalump is.

Its fine I'll concede. There is enough space to keep all of the BoH you mention and build more expansive projects.

I remember these were the same arguments you had several years ago, insisting they wouldn't move things offsite because the functions were critical, yet they have and continue to do so. So just because you believe they won't move these or any more of the BoH buildings because they're critical and "frozen" doesn't mean its guaranteed they will stay that way indefinitely.

 

[Old Mouseketeer]

Its fine I'll concede. There is enough space to keep all of the BoH you mention and build more expansive projects.

I remember these were the same arguments you had several years ago, insisting they wouldn't move things offsite because the functions were critical, yet they have and continue to do so. So just because you believe they won't move these or any more of the BoH buildings because they're critical and "frozen" doesn't mean its guaranteed they will stay that way indefinitely.

No, you didn't concede. Conceding would mean admitting that you don't know what goes on in those buildings.

You're right--there are things I didn't think they would move off-property. But those things weren't what they moved for SW:GE--they're what they are moving now to relocate the Entertainment Building for MMRR. And that decision isn't without problems. My point is that they are running out of things to move, and every move becomes at a greater cost.

No, I don't believe they will demo three of the four buildings I identified at DCA any time soon. We'll see whether I was right or not. But at least I have some understanding of the function they serve and the limitations on where they might move. You seem to believe that any BOH function can be moved, and I think we're nearing the limit of that practice.

 

[Ismael Flores]

So maybe I'm having trouble here and just plain dense, but 4.2 acres (Epcot GotG) is more than 2.7 acres (area behind DCA GotG) is it not? Meaning that a Epcot GotG sized attraction (show building and queue) and the undoubted gift shop that goes along with it will not fit.

So again I don't see how they can build new BoH buildings and keep all those existing BoH buildings and still put Phase 2 here. I just don't buy it, something doesn't add up here.

Maybe someone can explain it to me so a 5 year old can understand it, because I'm just not getting it. So unless Phase 2 is going to the Backlot, which I actually could believe, I just don't see it.

looks like they may have enough room if they keep the northern building but make it two story with a basement. If they can somehow re-configure the layout in that corner in regards to the Disney way access road behind the park that would be better but we know that wont happen.

The two other green buildings can than be removed so that the show building can be built. The Guardians coaster building seems to measure 2 acres in EPCot. The remaining 2 plus acres is because of the huge Horizon queue building that they are re-using in Epcot and the tunnel that connects the load area to the show building.

from what i can tell they have 4.6 acres of usable space to work with in the area. Not sure if the load area and launch can be reconfigured to fit within this area

 

[Disney Irish]

looks like they may have enough room if they keep the northern building but make it two story with a basement. If they can somehow re-configure the layout in that corner in regards to the Disney way access road behind the park that would be better but we know that wont happen.

The two other green buildings can than be removed so that the show building can be built. The Guardians coaster building seems to measure 2 acres in EPCot. The remaining 2 plus acres is because of the huge Horizon queue building that they are re-using in Epcot and the tunnel that connects the load area to the show building.

from what i can tell they have 4.6 acres of usable space to work with in the area. Not sure if the load area and launch can be reconfigured to fit within this area
View attachment 367335

Except according to our friend Old Mouseketeer those building can't and won't ever be moved this is why I'm saying I don't see how they can put an attraction the size of Epcot GotG into the space. They'd have to reconfigure it a lot, which maybe they will. I just don't see it right now. Maybe my opinion will change as the projects going on, but as of today I don't see it.

 

[Disney Irish]

No, you didn't concede. Conceding would mean admitting that you don't know what goes on in those buildings.

You're right--there are things I didn't think they would move off-property. But those things weren't what they moved for SW:GE--they're what they are moving now to relocate the Entertainment Building for MMRR. And that decision isn't without problems. Just moving the animatronics repair off-site is a big problem. They take an AA in to be fixed, then cart it back several miles in a truck. We're going to see how well that works out. Same thing with freshly refurbed and repainted ride vehicles. My point is that they are running out of things to move, and every move becomes at a greater cost.

No, I don't believe they will demo three of the four buildings I identified at DCA any time soon. We'll see whether I was right or not. But at least I have some understanding of the function they serve and the limitations on where they might move. You seem to believe that any BOH function can be moved, and I think we're nearing the limit of that practice.

You're right, I have no inside knowledge. And clearly you do, I'll bow down to you and your greatness, no joke. But inside knowledge or not, a lot of these decisions, I'm guessing now, are happening at a higher level than the people you know. So they may or may not be in the line of decision makers to know what the future holds for the resort.

So my point is still the same, unless they plan to finally say no more expansion at DLR and completely freeze everything, which I doubt. So that means at some point there will have to be further restacking of things and moving more things offsite, or else some classics will start being on the chopping block. And I know how we all feel when talking about removal and replacement of classics. So something will give at some point in the future, how long in the future that will be remains to be seen. In a perfect world they would have unlimited space for everything, but that is just not possible. And in the theme park business, guest facing facilities comes first, CMs and BOH facilities come second. So CMs will get the short end of the stick in this game of shifting facilities in favor of guest facing facilities.

 

[Ismael Flores]

here is the same map with the area representing the approximate 2 acres of the Epcot show building.

for comparison the Flicks fun Fair area within the large brick wall that it sat in was 1.67 acres but at a different shape.

A 2 acre building can fit against the further southern point of the land and still allow enough space behind it for a backstage road. The balance of the land could be used for an extended queue and preshow area. i guess the question would be how the long launch area would be positioned. Those backstage buildings wouldn't even have to be moved if they didn't want to. The show building can be turned vertically against them
.

 

[Old Mouseketeer]

You're right, I have no inside knowledge. And clearly you do, I'll bow down to you and your greatness, no joke. But inside knowledge or not, a lot of these decisions, I'm guessing now, are happening at a higher level than the people you know. So they may or may not be in the line of decision makers to know what the future holds for the resort.

So my point is still the same, unless they plan to finally say no more expansion at DLR and completely freeze everything, which I doubt. So that means at some point there will have to be further restacking of things and moving more things offsite, or else some classics will start being on the chopping block. And I know how we all feel when talking about removal and replacement of classics. So something will give at some point in the future, how long in the future that will be remains to be seen. In a perfect world they would have unlimited space for everything, but that is just not possible. And in the theme park business, guest facing facilities comes first, CMs and BOH facilities come second. So CMs will get the short end of the stick in this game of shifting facilities in favor of guest facing facilities.

I don't disagree that some things will have to change, including things many of us treasure. But some of the BOH facilities we're talking about are necessary to support live entertainment in the parks. Much of this is centralized in the Entertainment Building they are moving for MMRR and a smaller presence where we're talking DCA side. They're getting to the point where there's nothing more they can cut without cutting entertainment offerings.

As you say, some of the decisions are being made much higher up the food chain and I already know of instances where decisions have had to be reversed or modified because they went too far. And I'm not saying they won't move some more things off-property--in fact I believe they absolutely will. It's just that they're running out of things to move. I believe they've moved around 80-90% of what is possible to move.

There is still room for expansion. The SE corner of DCA behind TSMM, Goofy's Flying School, and Backlot. On Disneyland side, there's Tomorrowland, including the old Motorboats area, FL Theater, the parade building behind SW:GE (which could conceivably relocate next door to Building 100). After that, what do you cut? Storybookland/Casey Jr.? Jungle Cruise? Pooh? Realistically, however, I think there's land to occupy them for 20 years. However, it would help if they would come up with A FREAKING MASTER PLAN!!!

 

[Disney Irish]

here is the same map with the area representing the approximate 2 acres of the Epcot show building.

for comparison the Flicks fun Fair area within the large brick wall that it sat in was 1.67 acres but at a different shape.

A 2 acre building can fit against the further southern point of the land and still allow enough space behind it for a backstage road. The balance of the land could be used for an extended queue and preshow area. i guess the question would be how the long launch area would be positioned. Those backstage buildings wouldn't even have to be moved if they didn't want to. The show building can be turned vertically against them
.View attachment 367337

We'll just have to wait and see what they do. Maybe they have enough room, maybe the don't. Its just a big waiting game now. And hopefully they'll provide more insight into things at D23.

 

[Disney Irish]

I don't disagree that some things will have to change, including things many of us treasure. But some of the BOH facilities we're talking about are necessary to support live entertainment in the parks. Much of this is centralized in the Entertainment Building they are moving for MMRR and a smaller presence where we're talking DCA side. They're getting to the point where there's nothing more they can cut without cutting entertainment offerings.

As you say, some of the decisions are being made much higher up the food chain and I already know of instances where decisions have had to be reversed or modified because they went too far. And I'm not saying they won't move some more things off-property--in fact I believe they absolutely will. It's just that they're running out of things to move. I believe they've moved around 80-90% of what is possible to move.

There is still room for expansion. The SE corner of DCA behind TSMM, Goofy's Flying School, and Backlot. On Disneyland side, there's Tomorrowland, including the old Motorboats area, FL Theater, the parade building behind SW:GE (which could conceivably relocate next door to Building 100). After that, what do you cut? Storybookland/Casey Jr.? Jungle Cruise? Pooh? Realistically, however, I think there's land to occupy them for 20 years. However, it would help if they would come up with A FREAKING MASTER PLAN!!!

This part I will agree with, a Master Plan would be nice.

The one thing I think they should do is more stacking, like I was suggesting. Building an attraction at ground level with BoH below ground level. Basically making the DLR version of the WDW Utilidors. Why they didn't do that when they built DCA I'll never understand.

 

[RescueTheDay]

Wasn’t the rumor that the Avenger coaster was sent back to the drawing board due to capacity? If that’s the case, why would we think it would need to be as large as the GOTG building?

 

[Disney Irish]

Wasn’t the rumor that the Avenger coaster was sent back to the drawing board due to capacity? If that’s the case, why would we think it would need to be as large as the GOTG building?

Yes, and while there hasn't been much in the way of rumblings recently, the assumption has been that Avenger would end up just being a clone of GotG. And if so would need a building fairly large.

For all we know at this point maybe everything got scraped and there is no Phase 2. Except they appear to be moving forward as if there is a Phase 2 going behind MB. So who knows. Maybe I'm reading the tea leaves wrong on this one, or maybe I'm reading them right. There are a lot of moving parts going on right now that I don't think anyone on these forums knows for sure.

 

[Old Mouseketeer]

This part I will agree with, a Master Plan would be nice.

The one thing I think they should do is more stacking, like I was suggesting. Building an attraction at ground level with BoH below ground level. Basically making the DLR version of the WDW Utilidors. Why they didn't do that when they built DCA I'll never understand.

I don't understand it either. But Pressler was a dolt.

 

[Disney Irish]

I don't understand it either. But Pressler was a dolt.

The only thing I can think of is fear of and permitting and cost of retrofitting for earthquakes. But as I understand it the Subs show building and basement section in that area could double as a military grade fallout shelter. So who knows, much is the shortsightedness of the 90s TDA.

But its one thing that could have solved all this, a BoH city under DCA where the entire DLR footprint could be used for expansion. Ah the possibilities.

 

[Darkbeer1]

However, it would help if they would come up with A FREAKING MASTER PLAN!!!

I guess I can step in here. The priority to expansion is dealings with Anaheim, and nearby cities.

I can tell you that there is not just one Master Plan, but they do have an Anaheim/nearby cities wish list. Later this year, Disney will file the minorly revised Eastern Gateway plan, and depending how that goes, Disney would love to shuffle things around. One big issue is the Toy Story Lot, which is only temporarily zoned for parking (It is still zoned for agriculture). If that can be worked out (the city wants to build the Gene Autry extension), that is another major puzzle piece. Disney is looking for more space away from the resort for BOH Support stuff. They have talked to a property manager for a large property near me (think I-5 and Magnolia), not sure if it has gone any further than a first talk, but does show Disney has been looking.

Disney is also watching the situation with Angels Baseball, in case that fails to be worked out. (Personally I am 90% sure it will go through).

So yes, a Master Plan would be wonderful, but the Western Structure/Hotel changes messed up a bunch of plans, and everything has been in flex mode since then.

But in Disney's mind, any Theme Park development will only be in the current DLR Specific Plan land. So the key is to move as much as possible to other locations.

Heck, when USCIS moves out (Eastern Gateway land), you might not see it turned into parking, but something else.

 

[Disney Irish]

I guess I can step in here. The priority to expansion is dealings with Anaheim, and nearby cities.

I can tell you that there is not just one Master Plan, but they do have an Anaheim/nearby cities wish list. Later this year, Disney will file the minorly revised Eastern Gateway plan, and depending how that goes, Disney would love to shuffle things around. One big issue is the Toy Story Lot, which is only temporarily zoned for parking (It is still zoned for agriculture). If that can be worked out (the city want to build the Gene Autry extension), that is another major puzzle piece. Disney is looking for more space away from the resort for BOH Support stuff. They have talked to a property manager for a large property near me (think I-5 and Manchester), not should if it has gone any further than a first talk, but does show Disney has been looking.

Disney is also watching the situation with Angels Baseball, in case that fails to be worked out. (Personally I am 90% sure it will go through).

So yes, a Master Plan would be wonderful, but the Western Structure/Hotel changes messed up a bunch of plans, and everything has been in flex mode since then.

But in Disney's mind, any Theme Park development will only be in the current DLR Specific Plan land. So the key is to move as much as possible to other locations.

Heck, when USCIS moves out (Eastern Gateway land), you might not see it turned into parking, but something else.

Following your postings and the rest of the political winds in Anaheim this is what I expect was happening.

USCIS would make a perfect new TDA building....

 

[Darkbeer1]

The only thing I can think of is fear of and permitting and cost of retrofitting for earthquakes. But as I understand it the Subs show building and basement section in that area could double as a military grade fallout shelter. So who knows, much is the shortsightedness of the 90s TDA.

But its one thing that could have solved all this, a BoH city under DCA where the entire DLR footprint could be used for expansion. Ah the possibilities.

The problem is trying to build a basement level.

WDW didn't build a basement, they built the Utilidors at grade, then after all the main buildings were finished (Second and third floors), they used bulldozers to build a mound around them to make the second level "ground level", placing the Utilidors under the mound.

 

[Disney Irish]

The problem is trying to build a basement level.

WDW didn't build a basement, they built the Utilidors at grade, then after all the main buildings were finished (Second and third floors), they used bulldozers to build a mound around them to make the second level "ground level", placing the Utilidors under the mound.

Well that’s what I really meant when saying basement...

 

[BrianLo]

I don't understand it either. But Pressler was a dolt.

Can you speak in some more generalities about what the main purposes of those back stage facilities are? Entertainment support, offices, break rooms?

There is obviously some validity in discussions of consolidating the BOH especially with a new facility popping up. I think the entire conversation has been focused on moving it off property, but the cards can be shuffled in that plot.

Even if the functions are fixed, it doesn’t mean a better designed consolidated facility can not be built there. This would presumably be the logical point for them to do so.