Opinion: Runaway Railway is as much of a classic as Pirates of the Caribbean and Haunted Mansion

justintheharris

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
The idea of any attraction being a classic, is always going to be subjective. One person, or one marketer, calling something is 'classic' doesn't make it true. There has to be some wider group that all agrees.

And even then, it is always going to be an opinion.

I feel like perhaps you are confusing opinion with fact. You opinion is only your own opinion. A widely held opinion is still only a widely held opinion. Other people are allowed to have different opinions, no matter how much anyone tries to say otherwise.
You are absolutely correct. The first word in the title is opinion and the first sentence in the thread is a disclaimer about how it is just my opinion. I posted this with full knowledge knowing many/most were not going to agree with me.

I don't know where you've seen me claiming my opinions, my observations and my logic as anything other than my opinions observations and logic. Notice the majority of my posts in this thread contains two words: "I think.." you don't have to agree with what I think, but it means exactly that and nothing more.

I've repeatedly asked people questions in order to understand more about what they think constitutes a classic and the primary disagreement seems to be upon the fact that time is required for a ride to be considered a classic. I don't necessarily believe time is required as I believe in instant classics. I also believe classics generally (there are exceptions) have a journey from a mundane environment to a magical one. This also does not appear to be widely agreed upon. I accept that. But my opinion remains unchanged.
 
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yensidtlaw1969

Well-Known Member
I believe in Instant Classics. I don't believe Runaway Railway is one of them.

The attraction is fun, and I enjoyed it, but it is not conceived, developed, or executed as well a Pirates of the Caribbean or The Haunted Mansion.

There's an inciting act that transitions you from the queue into the attraction. This is not a prerequisite for classic status - a number of attractions feature this sort of story structure that wouldn't be considered classics. Is Enchanted Tales with Belle as much a classic as Pirates and Mansion because of the Magic Mirror?

That the attraction's storytelling unfolds in a similar manner to theirs is more about wanting to do the trick to take you from the real world to that of the cartoon, but once you're there the world is not as complete or compelling as those in Pirates and Mansion. Not by a miiiiile.

In my opinion, the ride doesn't do enough to payoff its setup. The reveal moment with the screen is high-impact, but the entry into the station immediately kills that momentum. Instead of entering into an exciting cartoon world we round a couple corners into a too-flat-feeling cartoon-wallpapered Train Station. We should feel that we've stepped into a cartoon the moment we . . . well, step into the cartoon. Instead they seem to make us wait until the train leaves the station, since the station itself feels merely like reality painted to resemble a cartoon.

The ride itself then skimps on execution of both immersion and cohesion - both Pirates and Mansion commit to fully enclosing their ceilings with complete "skies", with clouds or stars as necessary. Nearly 50 years later Runaway Railway fails to do this in its outdoor scenes, and it feels all the poorer for it, leaving backdrops to feel like precisely what they are and the vents above to awkwardly pretend to disappear into darkness. A completely enclosed sky would have worked wonders on an attraction like this, and the potential as a fully enveloping projection surface is a sorely missed opportunity. Part of what makes Pirates and Mansion such classics is how little they ask you to "screen out" in order to believe what you are seeing.

They are also pretty artfully consistent in their visual languages - while different methods are used to achieve their different effects, the results they achieve at least read to the audience as visually consistent. Compare that to Mickey and Minnie - Why is Mickey flat in one scene and dimensional in the next? The answer is because that was what made sense for telling the story of the scene, not that this was what made sense for the physical experience. Rides like Pirates and Mansion manage to do both. The blessing and curse of this medium is that it is a physical experience and not just a narrative one. I'd argue that it's more an experiential medium than a narrative one.

In being given the chance to create a physical world you are also tasked with the responsibility of creating a believable one. Creating a consistent language goes a long way towards creating that believability. The Musion effects in the ride are really strong, and create a convincing illusion of "cartoon come to life" in 2.5D - they seem to magically exist in space independent of the backgrounds behind them. I like the Animatronics in the ride, but I wish they'd committed to either making all the characters Animatronics or made all of them those great Musion Projections so that the characters are realized consistently throughout the ride.

I don't particularly care for the moments like the Desert where the characters are merely projected onto the flat wall. There's no illusion of life happening with the characters there. It doesn't help that the scene lacks any physical animation to compensate - the scene literally falls flat. They merely tell us what happened next rather than making it something we really experience. It feels like a cop-out. Neither Pirates nor Mansion feature any moments that are so merely illustrative and presentational, there's always something physically exciting that you're encountering one way or another. The Buttes of the desert aren't enough. Though I liked the way the lines float off the cactus.

In addition, I'm not even sure I'd agree the ride has been subjected to "an avalanche of unfair criticism". Lots of people have wonderful things to say about the ride. The consensus seems to be that it's a lot of fun and a nice addition to the Studios. There are those of us who have misgivings about the attraction's placement - myself included - but I think anyone worth listening to is able to fairly judge the attraction on its own merits despite that. I hold its placement against Disney, not against the ride itself.

I'll sum it up by saying that I DO enjoy it, in case my criticism should suggest that I don't, and that I do look forward to riding it again. I personally wish DHS had some more rides along the lines of this one and not less. It's a fun ride. It's cute. There are come fun tricks. But I don't think it does enough to be considered an instant classic - especially in a park that opened the first legitimate WDW instant classic of the last 20 years - and I don't think it comes close to the pantheon of Pirates of the Caribbean and The Haunted Mansion.

Which is fine. I don't say that as a knock. I don't get the impression the ride aspired to create an experience so rich and enveloping as those two. Unlike Rise of the Resistance, which clearly did aspire to it and I think managed to do it. But in that case, there's no reason for us to act like the ride is on that level if it isn't. It's nice, it's fun, but it's not an instant classic.
 

justintheharris

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
I believe in Instant Classics. I don't believe Runaway Railway is one of them.

The attraction is fun, and I enjoyed it, but it is not conceived, developed, or executed as well a Pirates of the Caribbean or The Haunted Mansion.

There's an inciting act that transitions you from the queue into the attraction. This is not a prerequisite for classic status - a number of attractions feature this sort of story structure that wouldn't be considered classics. Is Enchanted Tales with Belle as much a classic as Pirates and Mansion because of the Magic Mirror?

That the attraction's storytelling unfolds in a similar manner to theirs is more about wanting to do the trick to take you from the real world to that of the cartoon, but once you're there the world is not as complete or compelling as those in Pirates and Mansion. Not by a miiiiile.

In my opinion, the ride doesn't do enough to payoff its setup. The reveal moment with the screen is high-impact, but the entry into the station immediately kills that momentum. Instead of entering into an exciting cartoon world we round a couple corners into a too-flat-feeling cartoon-wallpapered Train Station. We should feel that we've stepped into a cartoon the moment we . . . well, step into the cartoon. Instead they seem to make us wait until the train leaves the station, since the station itself feels merely like reality painted to resemble a cartoon.

The ride itself then skimps on execution of both immersion and cohesion - both Pirates and Mansion commit to fully enclosing their ceilings with complete "skies", with clouds or stars as necessary. Nearly 50 years later Runaway Railway fails to do this in its outdoor scenes, and it feels all the poorer for it, leaving backdrops to feel like precisely what they are and the vents above to awkwardly pretend to disappear into darkness. A completely enclosed sky would have worked wonders on an attraction like this, and the potential as a fully enveloping projection surface is a sorely missed opportunity. Part of what makes Pirates and Mansion such classics is how little they ask you to "screen out" in order to believe what you are seeing.

They are also pretty artfully consistent in their visual languages - while different methods are used to achieve their different effects, the results they achieve at least read to the audience as visually consistent. Compare that to Mickey and Minnie - Why is Mickey flat in one scene and dimensional in the next? The answer is because that was what made sense for telling the story of the scene, not that this was what made sense for the physical experience. Rides like Pirates and Mansion manage to do both. The blessing and curse of this medium is that it is a physical experience and not just a narrative one. I'd argue that it's more an experiential medium than a narrative one.

In being given the chance to create a physical world you are also tasked with the responsibility of creating a believable one. Creating a consistent language goes a long way towards creating that believability. The Musion effects in the ride are really strong, and create a convincing illusion of "cartoon come to life" in 2.5D - they seem to magically exist in space independent of the backgrounds behind them. I like the Animatronics in the ride, but I wish they'd committed to either making all the characters Animatronics or made all of them those great Musion Projections so that the characters are realized consistently throughout the ride.

I don't particularly care for the moments like the Desert where the characters are merely projected onto the flat wall. There's no illusion of life happening with the characters there. It doesn't help that the scene lacks any physical animation to compensate - the scene literally falls flat. They merely tell us what happened next rather than making it something we really experience. It feels like a cop-out. Neither Pirates nor Mansion feature any moments that are so merely illustrative and presentational, there's always something physically exciting that you're encountering one way or another. The Buttes of the desert aren't enough. Though I liked the way the lines float off the cactus.

In addition, I'm not even sure I'd agree the ride has been subjected to "an avalanche of unfair criticism". Lots of people have wonderful things to say about the ride. The consensus seems to be that it's a lot of fun and a nice addition to the Studios. There are those of us who have misgivings about the attraction's placement - myself included - but I think anyone worth listening to is able to fairly judge the attraction on its own merits despite that. I hold its placement against Disney, not against the ride itself.

I'll sum it up by saying that I DO enjoy it, in case my criticism should suggest that I don't, and that I do look forward to riding it again. I personally wish DHS had some more rides along the lines of this one and not less. It's a fun ride. It's cute. There are come fun tricks. But I don't think it does enough to be considered an instant classic - especially in a park that opened the first legitimate WDW instant classic of the last 20 years - and I don't think it comes close to the pantheon of Pirates of the Caribbean and The Haunted Mansion.

Which is fine. I don't say that as a knock. I don't get the impression the ride aspired to create an experience so rich and enveloping as those two. Unlike Rise of the Resistance, which clearly did aspire to it and I think managed to do it. But in that case, there's no reason for us to act like the ride is on that level if it isn't. It's nice, it's fun, but it's not an instant classic.
This is the best reply I have gotten and I very much appreciate it.

First, the mirror with Belle's Enchanted Tales. You're right. That is an attraction I have never considered and does follow the format I laid out. So that is a hole in my explanation.

Second, in defense of the roof the building, it is much easier to do a night sky or darken the attraction so the roof isn't visible than it is to immerse you in the environment including the roof when the attraction is much brighter and more colorful. So I can understand the complaint but I think the logistics are worth considering. Could the roof have added to the attraction? Sure! But it was a much more difficult task with this one than it was with the other two. With regards to "screen out," there's so much going on in this attraction (as it should be, it is a cartoon and that's how cartoons are) that looking up is intentionally trying to break the illusion from my standpoint.

In regards to making all the characters animatronics, we previously mentioned Goofy on this thread and I assume that's who you're primarily referring to and it was likely due to the fact that one would have been required for every ride vehicle and there could have been a problem with people reaching out to touch him.
 

celluloid

Well-Known Member
I think it will be closer to that status in say, six to ten years from now whe you hear someone in a random venue in the every day world singing the theme song. On the way out of the attraction or park is a good start. Obviously not every classic attraction have this, but the most famous family friendly dark rides have all had that meter.
The classics also have the amazing Marc Davis designed or inspired sight gags that transcend a lot and made it easy for pop culture to parody and continue its popularity into many mediums.
 
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Archie123

Well-Known Member
The fact that it is the first ride to feature Mickey and Minnie MIGHT help make it become a classic but it is certainly not even close to being one now. Add to the fact that it is not a great ride I would say that it will never be a true classic.
 

MickeyLuv'r

Well-Known Member
It's not fair to call the ride a flop because the parks closed for a global pandemic.

flop or classic = valid opinion

That's how opinions work.

Posting the same opinion 1,000 times, won't change that.

Since this is a Disney forum, reminds me a little of Pinocchio's Lamplighter.

Also those little jumping spiders that try to impress females with elaborate flapping of their little legs and thumping their little rumps on the ground. All full of sound and fury, until the female walks away. (They literally thump their little rumps on the ground to make a tiny little sound below the level humans can hear.)
 

MickeyLuv'r

Well-Known Member
Is this seriously the only rebuttal I'm going to get? It's been open for two seconds so therefore it's not a classic? Has nobody ever heard of instant-classics? But even that aside, could we explore the topic a bit more than shutting it down with a reply that could've been made without reading a single word of what I wrote in the actual thread? You know... why I would already declare this an instant classic?

No, this post - from you - didn't start with, "I value your opinion."
 

JustAFan

Well-Known Member
Also those little jumping spiders that try to impress females with elaborate flapping of their little legs and thumping their little rumps on the ground. All full of sound and fury, until the female walks away. (They literally thump their little rumps on the ground to make a tiny little sound below the level humans can hear.)
Sooo you're saying all that thumping and flapping does not work? Explains so much. I've got to come up with a new technique.
 

Pepper's Ghost

Well-Known Member
Alas, I could make a counter case: Any ride that closes less than two weeks after it opens = a flop or a WDW albatross.. This new ride isn't drawing any $ to WDW right now.
It's not fair to call the ride a flop because the parks closed for a global pandemic.

Tom - If this is sarcasm, that's totally not clear.

MickeyLuv'r - Both excellent, and well played! lol! 🤣 Can't believe more people haven't commented on this. 🤪 I've never heard of a ride closing so quickly after opening. In fact it was so bad it shuttered the entire resort indefinitely! 🥴
 

bryanfze55

Well-Known Member
Instant classics are definitely a thing. That said, I haven't ridden it yet. It could very well be a classic, but I have a hard time imagining it's on par with Haunted Mansion or Pirates of the Caribbean (DL version, at least).

Is it really just a screen ride? Are there any animatronics other than Daisy?
 

Mindy55

Active Member
Typical disclaimer: this is just my opinion, but hear me out.

Mickey and Minnie's Runaway Railway is, perhaps, the closest we've had to a classic Disney ride since the 1990s. This is not to say that Avatar - Flight of Passage or Star Wars: Rise of the Resistance are bad in the slightest. They're both fantastic rides and also among Disney's greatest. But Mickey and Minnie's Runaway Railway is executed in the same fashion that classic Disney rides always have been executed in which they began in a real world setting and took you into a magical setting via some Disney magic. This is the element that makes attractions truly timeless and garner name recognition. You may find that many people who have NEVER been to a Disney park can still tell you what Haunted Mansion and Pirates of the Caribbean are. I believe that over the course of the next decade, with the ride confirmed to be opening in California and, prior to coronavirus, were rumored to be added into other resorts, we will find Runaway Railway to garner that name recognition.

I have noticed a lot of people are quick to compare Mickey and Minnie's Runaway Railway to Fantasyland dark rides and simply noting the attraction as an updated version of them. I suppose you could see it that way, but I think the much easier comparison is with Pirates of the Caribbean and Haunted Mansion in terms of execution and story-telling. Fantasyland dark rides took you into a new magical world but there's no real build up or continuity with reality. For example, in the case of Peter Pan's Flight, you simply sit in a pirate ship and fly off. There's nothing wrong with this approach and it is still, without a doubt, a classic Disney ride in its own right. But here's a break down of how Haunted Mansion and Pirates of the Caribbean approach the overall journey of the attraction and how Mickey and Minnie's Runaway Railway does so in a near identical fashion. And do note, I will be using the Disneyland version of Haunted Mansion and Pirates of the Caribbean as Walt Disney himself oversaw the development of these versions.

For Pirates of the Caribbean, your mundane setting is New Orleans. The journey begins as your boat leaves the station. You are in a swamp in New Orleans. A beautiful swamp. This is a real world location. Once you round the corner, the talking skull forebodes what lies ahead as you go down a drop into the caves below New Orleans for a glimpse all that is left from a world that once was. And finally, through that magical moment, the world comes back to as it was in the past as you enter in the ship battle scene. And after your glimpse into the past, your lift back up to the loading dock brings you back to the present day and the attraction has come full circle.

In the case of Haunted Mansion, the mundane setting is New Orleans but, to be a bit more specific, a seemingly abandoned house. The journey begins when you step through the front door of the mansion into the foyer. The ghost host forebodes what is to come with his narration (I must say, in Disney World, this element is done a bit better with the aging portrait). Unlike Pirates where the build up to the magical moment lasts for nearly half the ride, the magical moment that takes you into a new realm happens much sooner: when you enter the stretching room. (For clarification, I consider 'the magical moment' to be when what you're witnessing is no longer ordinary or mundane. Sure, swamps are beautiful and we don't see skeletons every day in the case of Pirates and the foyer and front lawn are spooky but the moment we leave the real world behind is the moment in which we see dead pirates come back to life and/or witness a haunted room stretch). After the ride through the 'realm of the supernatural' you exit your doom buggy and walk up and out of a crypt bringing the journey full circle.

And finally, for Disney World's latest addition, Mickey and Minnie's Runaway Railway begins in a mundane setting: Hollywood! At the Chinese Theater to be precise. You are headed to see the premiere of a new Mickey Mouse cartoon. You can make the case that the foreboding takes place in the song as Mickey and Minnie sing "we'll sing a song and absolutely nothing will go wrong!" The magical moment comes when the pie jams into the engine of the train causing an explosion and you step through the screen into the magical realm of a cartoon. After a wacky adventure, the journey comes full circle when you step back through the screen into the real world.

Mickey and Minnie's Runaway Railway, despite having one of the most brilliant executions in story I have ever seen in a Disney attraction, has been subjected to an avalanche of unfair criticism. Almost none of the criticism has much to do with the ride itself. Instead, opting to criticize the location of the ride and rationalizing that since it is a kid-friendly dark ride (Haunted Mansion is too guys...) it MUST belong in Fantasyland. Others are simply bitter that it replaced a charming, but hopelessly outdated attraction that lacked the whimsy and magic that a classic Disney ride has. And some others opt to criticize the animation style despite the fact that the classic style did not lend itself to the storyline of the attraction as well and (someone verify) the classic version of Mickey Mouse's animation's imminent entry into the public domain in 2024. The only genuine criticism of the ride is its reliance of screen technology but even that criticism is rather flimsy when you consider the fact that the ride utilizes this technology to the fullest extent. There is a scene at the end that transforms from a factory to a park in a stunning display of projection mapping technology and because this happens before your very eyes, it was not possible to do this with real life props. And that is where screen technology should be encouraged. I understand that screen technology has been used as a dodge in many instances; however, it is often used correctly and used for effects that cannot be replicated with real life sets.

Instead of trying to rip down the attraction, Mickey and Minnie's Runaway Railway should be embraced as a return to the roots of a classic Disney attraction. It was a formula that was laid out by Walt Disney himself and with Mickey and Minnie's Runaway Railway, was executed perfectly with his most beloved creation. An attraction that truly would have made him proud.
 

WondersOfLife

Blink, blink. Breathe, breathe. Day in, day out.
It can only become a classic once it has been there for like 25/30+ years.

Even if it sucks by today's standards (AKA Tiki Room, Treehouse, Imagination), it's inevitable to get the label of a "classic"
 

Pepper's Ghost

Well-Known Member
It can only become a classic once it has been there for like 25/30+ years.

Even if it sucks by today's standards (AKA Tiki Room, Treehouse, Imagination), it's inevitable to get the label of a "classic"

I believe you're using the definition of a classic car. ;) Not sure this applies to rides.

classic car.JPG
antique car.JPG
 

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