On layoffs, very bad attendance, and Iger's legacy being one of disgrace

[EPCOT-O.G.]

As my username suggests, I am quite fond of the halcyon days of EPCOT. It’s clear rewatching old footage, and seeing what’s there now, that they never future-proofed Future World.

I don’t know that the edutainment concept is as fatally flawed as some suggest. As one who has been to so many good museums in recent years with my young kids, the smaller, youth focused children’s museums have figured it out. Now,many of these attractions are likely not consonant with a COVID—infected world (lots of hands-on experiences, etc) but the DNA of the original EPCOT Future World still lives on in some of the great science and children’s museums of the US. Again, I respect that may not be what customer surveys or attendance trends say drives things, but think there *could* be a way forward in the edutainment realm if they wanted it.

 

[networkpro]

Yeah...

“After hours events”
“Fireworks viewing parties”
“All you care to eat character dining experience”

Merces notitiam promerendae

 

[_caleb]

The roller coaster was just one example. If anyone is interested look up what was originally planned for World Showcase. Almost every country had an attraction of some kind. Germany to was supposed to have a Rhine River cruise. I'm saying why not go back to that. Instead we have Lex Luthor and his croney pushing IP everywhere.

Sorry- I was sort of teasing you about the coasters thing. But I really do appreciate that you provided an alternative suggestion (and you're right, the original plans you're referring to were much more than the Mt. Fuji coaster).

But to @flynnibus 's point, maybe nobody wants to see a knockoff of real world places anymore? Not sure I agree with this, but Disney sure seems to.

the death of Edutainment

Yep. I'm one of these. I think Disney gave up on edutainment (such as it was) way too easily. It felt stale because it was allowed to get stale, not because it was "educational."

 

[EPCOT-O.G.]

Merces notitiam promerendae

For some reason this post makes me think there should be an Assassins Creed: EPCOT. Ezio portions could take place in WS, and Desmond in CommuniCore.

 

[_caleb]

For some reason this post makes me think there should be an Assassins Creed: EPCOT. Ezio portions could take place in WS, and Desmond in CommuniCore.

Except the mission would be to "remove" anyone who isn't complying with the mask/distancing rules.

 

[marni1971]

Why do you think disney has invested in more festivals instead of more countries?

Because it’s cheaper.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Maybe you have a point and since WS in itself isn't "special" anymore, they have no choice but to make it more unique by adding more princesses.

...well if that isn’t the most ironic/paradoxical statement ever

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Because it’s cheaper.

...it is?!?

 

[marni1971]

...it is?!?

Yes. Shocking I know.

 

[_caleb]

I don’t know that the edutainment concept is as fatally flawed as some suggest.

I agree 100%!

BTW, I see this as the "secret sauce" in the success of Hamilton.

 

[carolina_yankee]

As a late Boomer/early GenXer, World Showcase is mostly boring to me without the festivals now that I've seen it so many times. The festivals aid the repeat visits, and I'm definitely *not* a Drink Around The World type. I like things that show off the culture of each country, so the holiday festival works best in that regard.

However, if each country had a worthy attraction (great film and/or ride) that celebrated that country's history/culture in fun ways, I'd be happy to return as often as possible.

The staleness of Epcot is really represented by Future World to me. I remember it in 1988/89 and even in 2003 (Big gap in-between). It's just uninteresting for the most part, except for Land. I was going to give "New Epcot" a shot when they finished everything, but the Pandemic put paid to that. I'm just not interested in cut back plans and evidence of a half-razed park for the next few years.

So, I'm turning my sites onto visiting the real things. I want to get back to Disney, but Epcot won't be a driver for a very long time, I suspect. Honestly, I feel the same way about DHS. I've had a chance to check out TLS and SWGE and gone through all the mania associated with each, and I'm good. I feel like both parks have lost their soul, and the IP drive is just a sign to me the Disney isn't led by dreamers any more. I'm not opposed to IP in concept, but heck, they didn't even dream up half the IP . . .

 

[_caleb]

...well if that isn’t the most ironic/paradoxical statement ever

I'm glad SOMEONE saw what I was TRYING to do there!

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Merces notitiam promerendae

Caritas Enim animalium

 

[Jrb1979]

As a late Boomer/early GenXer, World Showcase is mostly boring to me without the festivals now that I've seen it so many times. The festivals aid the repeat visits, and I'm definitely *not* a Drink Around The World type. I like things that show off the culture of each country, so the holiday festival works best in that regard.

However, if each country had a worthy attraction (great film and/or ride) that celebrated that country's history/culture in fun ways, I'd be happy to return as often as possible.

The staleness of Epcot is really represented by Future World to me. I remember it in 1988/89 and even in 2003 (Big gap in-between). It's just uninteresting for the most part, except for Land. I was going to give "New Epcot" a shot when they finished everything, but the Pandemic put paid to that. I'm just not interested in cut back plans and evidence of a half-razed park for the next few years.

So, I'm turning my sites onto visiting the real things. I want to get back to Disney, but Epcot won't be a driver for a very long time, I suspect. Honestly, I feel the same way about DHS. I've had a chance to check out TLS and SWGE and gone through all the mania associated with each, and I'm good. I feel like both parks have lost their soul, and the IP drive is just a sign to me the Disney isn't led by dreamers any more. I'm not opposed to IP in concept, but heck, they didn't even dream up half the IP . . .

I agree with everything you said. I think the problem now is too many Disney fans only care about IP. Your casual GP only is drawn by IP

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Yes. Shocking I know.

I thought it was more “magical”...honestly

 

[_caleb]

As a late Boomer/early GenXer, World Showcase is mostly boring to me without the festivals now that I've seen it so many times. The festivals aid the repeat visits, and I'm definitely *not* a Drink Around The World type. I like things that show off the culture of each country, so the holiday festival works best in that regard.

However, if each country had a worthy attraction (great film and/or ride) that celebrated that country's history/culture in fun ways, I'd be happy to return as often as possible.

The staleness of Epcot is really represented by Future World to me. I remember it in 1988/89 and even in 2003 (Big gap in-between). It's just uninteresting for the most part, except for Land. I was going to give "New Epcot" a shot when they finished everything, but the Pandemic put paid to that. I'm just not interested in cut back plans and evidence of a half-razed park for the next few years.

So, I'm turning my sites onto visiting the real things. I want to get back to Disney, but Epcot won't be a driver for a very long time, I suspect. Honestly, I feel the same way about DHS. I've had a chance to check out TLS and SWGE and gone through all the mania associated with each, and I'm good. I feel like both parks have lost their soul, and the IP drive is just a sign to me the Disney isn't led by dreamers any more. I'm not opposed to IP in concept, but heck, they didn't even dream up half the IP . . .

I've said it before, but I think architecture will only get you so far in creating a memorable place that people want to experience. It's culture that World Showcase needs.

WS has the same problem that SWGE has without aliens and droids, and the same that the Main Streets have without streetmosphere. I know without international College Program students it's even more of a challenge, but these places should be filled with the sights and sounds of inhabited places. That's where the personal experiences come into play, and the places become much more special, remarkable, and attractive.

 

[Brer Oswald]

I agree with everything you said. I think the problem now is too many Disney fans only care about IP. Your casual GP only is drawn by IP

The funny thing is, the popular attractions are either park original IP (Small World, Mansion, Pirates, Space Mountain) or IP Disney clearly doesn’t care about (Snow White, Peter Pan, Alice in Wonderland, And the dreaded IP they’re scared of).

Frozen was a flop (60 minutes on a good day). Mermaid was a flop. One of the Star Wars attractions wasn’t a flop, but the other two...yikes.

 

[_caleb]

The funny thing is, the popular attractions are either park original IP (Small World, Mansion, Pirates, Space Mountain) or IP Disney clearly doesn’t care about (Snow White, Peter Pan, Alice in Wonderland, And the dreaded IP they’re scared of).

Frozen was a flop (60 minutes on a good day). Mermaid was a flop. One of the Star Wars attractions wasn’t a flop, but the other two...yikes.

So you're saying the new stuff attracts visitors only to disappoint them, but the old stuff will make their experience great? Hmm. I need to think about this one for a while...

 

[flynnibus]

Thanks. I'm really trying to understand here. Didn't you start out lamenting the fact that Disney had "watered down" the WS experience with festivals and such?

No - I said "It's biggest draw and awe is completely watered down now. No one walks into Italy anymore and is awed by the architecture... no one walks through England and feels like they are near the tower. It's a backdrop... no longer a 'travel the world' experience. People have had far too much exposure beyond the photos or grainy TV that the boomer generation grew up with."

I said it's biggest draw - the awe - which comes from having all these places recreated here - is watered down. It's antiquated by today's standards, and its impact is greatly diminished because of the type of exposure and access people have to these places and culture now.

I said "imagine what World Showcase would be to adults these days if Disney hadn't come up with the festivals..." -- Meaning if you took DDP, Festivals, and Illuminations away from the WS you know today... look at what you really have. Are the backdrops and attractions really what bring people into World Showcase over and over? Or is it people are really just there for the festivals and restaurants?

Which I reiterated the point with highlighting where and how World Showcase has been expanded for the last 30 years... that should help bring into focus what drives interest.

 

[carolina_yankee]

I agree with everything you said. I think the problem now is too many Disney fans only care about IP. Your casual GP only is drawn by IP

Honestly, with the price of a Disney vacation now, those who go to Epcot can just as easily afford to go see the real thing, and take a side trip to DLP for a castle-park fix to boot. DVC hid the actual costs to me, but when we decided to sell and started to realize what we could do with our money, post-pandemic Europe will be winning out over #23 trip to Florida . . .