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New Parking Structure/Hotel/DTD Construction/Updates

I would say though that the City might be willing to approve the Manchester property to be used for backstage facilities if the parking structure is not an option. But this is more my own wishes than something even being considered.

WHAT BACKSTAGE FACILITIES???


Hello? What do you think can be moved beyond what already has? There are a couple of things that could go more vertical. The three green buildings on the SE corner of DCA should have been a multi-story building on the back of Cars Land facing Katella. The two entertainment buildings behind ToonTown (not the parade building behind SWGE) could be multi-story, but not where they are currently located. This leaves the NW corner by Ball and DL Drive. The motor pool was just relocated. They could have relocated it off-site, but opted not to. The large merchandise warehouse would create a logistical complexity I cannot fathom. Parade buildings are a non-starter. Ride vehicle maintenance would also be logistically difficult--Not impossible, but I rate it as doubtful.

Frankly, the only candidate I can think of is the bakery in the NW corner of Ball lot North of M&F.

As for relocating any backstage facilities to the Manchester lot North of Simba or Toy Story, I don't see the value. I think Disney would relocate them on the East side of I-5 where there is existing industrial real estate. I don't believe the City will approve any different use of Toy Story Lot absent the construction of a parking structure to make up for any eliminated parking spots. Frankly I don't understand why the city hasn't taken it by eminent domain for Convention Center parking.

But any discussion of relocating any more backstage facilities requires explanation of the viability of the scenario. I long expected the Staff shops to be moved--I had speculated they might be moved next to the bakery in Ball Lot. Moving Circle D had been planned even before SWGE. Horticulture and Recycling were relocated on-property.

IMHO, they have achieved 80-95% of possible expansion area from relocation. Their primary expansion areas are Autopia/Subs/Motor Boats (and possibly FLT), SE corner of DCA (already allocated to Marvel), Possible NE corner of DCA if bus dropoff is moved, and ToonTown and footprint of Entertainment building (if it is shifted farther North). But anything on the North side of DL is impacted by Pyro lockdown. If you overlay the layout of SWGE with the Pyro fallout area, something like 80-90% of SWGE is outside the Stage 1 fallout zone. IOW, SWGE will not be closing down for Pyro like Toontown most of the time.

I've been talking to CMs I know about this stuff for years. If you think relocating more backstage facilities is a thing--identify what they are and how it will work. Otherwise it's a pipe dream. YMMV.
 
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The land is Zoned for a structure, BUT Disney doesn't have the right to impact the area outside their property line. So that would require a transit center to move the guests parked at the structure to another location on-property with minimal impact to the area (aka Harbor Blvd and Disney Way). No allowing pedestrians over the current amount from surface level parking onto city sidewalks and streets.

That was the purpose of the Eastern Gateway that failed. So what is the new solution to do it?

What is the purpose of building something they can't use? The simplest answer is a CM structure where all CM and employees would have to take a shuttle as a condition to park there.
I always assumed that building a structure on Pumba would require a bridge over Harbor. Both the Westcot and DCA master plans included this. Looking at what was built, I assumed a tram bridge would be built with the Eastern approach ramp rising over the now-subterranean power lines, cross over Harbor, turn North descending down what is currently the path for Toy Story buses, ending in the current Toy Story turn-around. I think this is a great unanswered question: What was contemplated in the Resort Master Plan for the Eastern Parking Structure?
 

BrianLo

Well-Known Member
WHAT BACKSTAGE FACILITIES???

Hello? What do you think can be moved beyond what already has? There are a couple of things that could go more vertical. The three green buildings on the SE corner of DCA should have been a multi-story building on the back of Cars Land facing Katella. The two entertainment buildings behind ToonTown (not the parade building behind SWGE) could be multi-story, but not where they are currently located.
I think your multi-story aspect hits the nail on the head. Entertainment and music could easily be stacked on top of a new parade storage facility. Especially with the gargantuan sized star wars show buildings. Quite a few of those backstage facilities don't really need to be ground level.
 
I think your multi-story aspect hits the nail on the head. Entertainment and music could easily be stacked on top of a new parade storage facility. Especially with the gargantuan sized star wars show buildings. Quite a few of those backstage facilities don't really need to be ground level.
Thanks, but I don't think there's that much left that can be condensed. And the fireworks issue creates even more problems. IMO, the footprint of the two parks is packed almost to the max. But I've been wrong before. The boundaries of SWGE pretty much exceeded my expectations, although I never believed they would sacrifice ToonTown or the three entertainment buildings.
 

choco choco

Well-Known Member
If you overlay the layout of SWGE with the Pyro fallout area, something like 80-90% of SWGE is outside the Stage 1 fallout zone.
Ah, perfect! A guy who might be able to answer questions I've had for years: What is the pyro fallout area? I would love to see this map you are claiming to have.

What exactly are the rules to the pyro fallout area? Are the people walking around on Ball street affected? The top of the TDA parking structure? Are CM's, like, not allowed to walk around backstage during the fireworks show? Drive around? Why is the fireworks platform where it is (as everyone knows, it sure as hell isn't lined up with the castle). Why can't the fireworks platform itself be moved?
 
WHAT BACKSTAGE FACILITIES???

Hello? What do you think can be moved beyond what already has? There are a couple of things that could go more vertical. The three green buildings on the SE corner of DCA should have been a multi-story building on the back of Cars Land facing Katella. The two entertainment buildings behind ToonTown (not the parade building behind SWGE) could be multi-story, but not where they are currently located. This leaves the NW corner by Ball and DL Drive. The motor pool was just relocated. They could have relocated it off-site, but opted not to. The large merchandise warehouse would create a logistical complexity I cannot fathom. Parade buildings are a non-starter. Ride vehicle maintenance would also be logistically difficult--Not impossible, but I rate it as doubtful.

Frankly, the only candidate I can think of is the bakery in the NW corner of Ball lot North of M&F.

As for relocating any backstage facilities to the Manchester lot North of Simba or Toy Story, I don't see the value. I think Disney would relocate them on the East side of I-5 where there is existing industrial real estate. I don't believe the City will approve any different use of Toy Story Lot absent the construction of a parking structure to make up for any eliminated parking spots. Frankly I don't understand why the city hasn't taken it by eminent domain for Convention Center parking.

But any discussion of relocating any more backstage facilities requires explanation of the viability of the scenario. I long expected the Staff shops to be moved--I had speculated they might be moved next to the bakery in Ball Lot. Moving Circle D had been planned even before SWGE. Horticulture and Recycling were relocated on-property.

IMHO, they have achieved 80-95% of possible expansion area from relocation. Their primary expansion areas are Autopia/Subs/Motor Boats (and possibly FLT), SE corner of DCA (already allocated to Marvel), Possible NE corner of DCA if bus dropoff is moved, and ToonTown and footprint of Entertainment building (if it is shifted farther North). But anything on the North side of DL is impacted by Pyro lockdown. If you overlay the layout of SWGE with the Pyro fallout area, something like 80-90% of SWGE is outside the Stage 1 fallout zone. IOW, SWGE will not be closing down for Pyro like Toontown most of the time.

I've been talking to CMs I know about this stuff for years. If you think relocating more backstage facilities is a thing--identify what they are and how it will work. Otherwise it's a pipe dream. YMMV.
As I said it was my wish. In a perfect world things could and would be relocated at will giving you the ability to have a lot of different configurations. And I know as a former CM you have some insight and the topic of relocating backstage stuff becomes a little touchy. But they have relocated things that were thought untouchable before. So its not completely out of the realm of possibilities. Its all a matter of logistics and how much they are willing to inconvenience CMs. For example the large TDA building and its companion parking structure could possibly be relocated across the street to Manchester. Now you can move the entertainment buildings and stack them like you suggested. You could even go down underground a level and stack even more stuff.

Anyways like I said it was more my wish than anything actually being considered.
 

Darkbeer1

Well-Known Member
OK, I will share the fireworks info I know. There are internal firework zones, with different policy in each based on multiple factors including the specific show and weather/wind factors. Also the city is involved in the matter, in both Fire Safety and noise issues, and the shows are under a special permit issued by the city that has the agreed guidelines to specific dates allowed (usually a year in advance), and allowed hours, usually finished by 10 PM with allowed exceptions for New Years Eve.

As to the locations picked, we go to two main issues, sightlines and safety. The old original shows always were to the west of the Castle for the best sightlines from multiple locations from the park and Disney Hotels. It also matched the preferred fallout area needed to ensure no guests being hit, and also safety to CM's and not catching things on fire. (The Castle roof area has caught fire multiple times in the past, along with other structures). The Circle D area was perfect, due to lack of CM's working after dark, and not much to catch fire.

Having been backstage multiple times, there are signs placed in possible fallout areas, and security does verify the specific rules. In some zones, only specific CM's are allowed to be outdoors. One example, the small CM parking structure just of Ball doesn't allow top level parking after a specific time on fireworks nights (posted signs). Also the small surface lot next to the original Pope House (moved from Adventureland) is closed. All these things must be verified and called in to the launch control before the show is allowed to appear. So some areas would allow vehicles with covered roofs, some would not. Once again, wind is a major issue that can change the zones, and even make some fireworks not be used due to possible fallout issues.

The city will not allow any impact to Ball Road itself, so any fireworks would have to have no fallout outside the DLR property.

As for the current launch sights, it is both artistic (best viewing) and logistical placement (such as on the side of a building, and safety considerations). Also, the fireworks are now launched into the air by compressed air, instead of the traditional explosive charge. This also had to be taken into consideration. Also, the actual fireworks create sight issue due to smoke, and have to be planned to allow for the smoke to disparate. That is why fireworks shows are designed with pauses, and the finale at the end (major smoke creation).

The platforms have been moved, but are expensive to do. A rooftop launch requires the roof to have major additions to fire safe materials and structural considerations. And since Main Street and the Fantasmic! viewing areas don't move, there is no need to move the platforms.

Hope that helps.

By the way, there is public access to the original building (only viewing the outside), so you can see some of the signage. The easiest way is to walk there.

https://www.ocregister.com/2016/01/...he-pope-house-to-just-outside-the-theme-park/
 
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Ah, perfect! A guy who might be able to answer questions I've had for years: What is the pyro fallout area? I would love to see this map you are claiming to have.

What exactly are the rules to the pyro fallout area? Are the people walking around on Ball street affected? The top of the TDA parking structure? Are CM's, like, not allowed to walk around backstage during the fireworks show? Drive around? Why is the fireworks platform where it is (as everyone knows, it sure as hell isn't lined up with the castle). Why can't the fireworks platform itself be moved?
Alas, I don't possess such a map. My comment is based on descriptions from CMs I have known in recent years with some conjecture on my part. Specifically, I have had more than one CM tell me that most of SWGE will be unaffected by fireworks under normal atmospheric conditions. I was told that the published fallout radius from the primary fireworks launch pad excluded most of SWGE. But there are different levels based on the weather. For instance, sometimes Small World Mall is open for Pyro, and sometimes it's closed. I don't know all the details, just that such a thing exists.

Forgive me if I have extrapolated various stories without proper attribution or context. This is my best guess/interpretation. I believe DarkBeer has provided a more robust explanation, but I do know from one source that there is a "lockdown" period when you can't cross through the area or exit the TDA parking structure.

Today's fireworks infrastructure is far more elaborate than when I was growing up in the OC. We used to park against the Ball Rd. overpass approach to Harbor and watch the fireworks launch through the chain link fence. Boy, was it loud!
 
As I said it was my wish. In a perfect world things could and would be relocated at will giving you the ability to have a lot of different configurations. And I know as a former CM you have some insight and the topic of relocating backstage stuff becomes a little touchy. But they have relocated things that were thought untouchable before. So its not completely out of the realm of possibilities. Its all a matter of logistics and how much they are willing to inconvenience CMs. For example the large TDA building and its companion parking structure could possibly be relocated across the street to Manchester. Now you can move the entertainment buildings and stack them like you suggested. You could even go down underground a level and stack even more stuff.

Anyways like I said it was more my wish than anything actually being considered.
Thank you for your nuanced analysis. I certainly don't know the definitive answers. However, I sincerely doubt that they will demolish the multi-million-dollar Frank Gehry TDA building in my lifetime. Mind you, I'm not a big Gehry fan. I love the exterior of Disney Hall and the Concert Hall, itself. But the public spaces (lobby, etc.) suck bigtime. The garden is nice and the fountain dedicated to Lillian Disney is lovely.

I honestly don't think they'll expand north of ToonTown or SWGE in the foreseeable future (meaning the next 10-20 years). But that's just my best guess.
 
Enough about the backstage facilities that should be integrated as much to the existing guests facilities. They really shouldn’t be it’s own building in the parks if they could be avoided.

As to the solution to the Eastern Gateway besides the mixed use approach (proposal 1) that I described previously is... a third theme park (proposal 2) at EG instead of at Toy Story Lot. The logistics to do a third theme park at Toy Story Lot is near impossible; however, as an attachment to the existing esplanade, it’ll be a no brainer. Just build a bridge to a 2 or 3 completely immersive and much compact land theme park.

Toy Story Lot will continue to function as a overflow guest parking lot and Disney will lease the near vacant second floor of GardenWalk to provide a walking path to the third theme park and build new bridges to connect.
 

180º

Well-Known Member
I think your multi-story aspect hits the nail on the head. Entertainment and music could easily be stacked on top of a new parade storage facility. Especially with the gargantuan sized star wars show buildings. Quite a few of those backstage facilities don't really need to be ground level.
Considering the height needed for parade storage along with the fact that the Entertainment facilities are already multi-level, I don’t see much room for this happening easily.

The easiest things to move were probably the central shops and, well, they did. :)

If we’re dreaming, things can always be condensed, but at this point only with sizable effort. Bulldoze rows of two-storey facilities and excavate for huge, combined four-storey complexes. Things like that. Like I said, theoretically possible, but extremely unlikely until we have another Star Wars-sized, CEO-mandated super expansion on our hands. Even Star Wars originally wouldn’t have displaced many backstage areas, before Iger ordered bigger.
 
Enough about the backstage facilities that should be integrated as much to the existing guests facilities. They really shouldn’t be it’s own building in the parks if they could be avoided.

As to the solution to the Eastern Gateway besides the mixed use approach (proposal 1) that I described previously is... a third theme park (proposal 2) at EG instead of at Toy Story Lot. The logistics to do a third theme park at Toy Story Lot is near impossible; however, as an attachment to the existing esplanade, it’ll be a no brainer. Just build a bridge to a 2 or 3 completely immersive and much compact land theme park.

Toy Story Lot will continue to function as a overflow guest parking lot and Disney will lease the near vacant second floor of GardenWalk to provide a walking path to the third theme park and build new bridges to connect.
If you're proposing building a 3rd gate on the Manchester property, why not just wait. Have Disney buy out more of the Harbor properties over the next couple of decades and then they can build a larger 3rd gate.

Because as it sits now, they aren't going to get a permit to put a 3rd gate there anyways.
 

Ismael Flores

Well-Known Member
WHAT BACKSTAGE FACILITIES???

Hello? What do you think can be moved beyond what already has? There are a couple of things that could go more vertical. The three green buildings on the SE corner of DCA should have been a multi-story building on the back of Cars Land facing Katella. The two entertainment buildings behind ToonTown (not the parade building behind SWGE) could be multi-story, but not where they are currently located. This leaves the NW corner by Ball and DL Drive. The motor pool was just relocated. They could have relocated it off-site, but opted not to. The large merchandise warehouse would create a logistical complexity I cannot fathom. Parade buildings are a non-starter. Ride vehicle maintenance would also be logistically difficult--Not impossible, but I rate it as doubtful.

Frankly, the only candidate I can think of is the bakery in the NW corner of Ball lot North of M&F.

As for relocating any backstage facilities to the Manchester lot North of Simba or Toy Story, I don't see the value. I think Disney would relocate them on the East side of I-5 where there is existing industrial real estate. I don't believe the City will approve any different use of Toy Story Lot absent the construction of a parking structure to make up for any eliminated parking spots. Frankly I don't understand why the city hasn't taken it by eminent domain for Convention Center parking.

But any discussion of relocating any more backstage facilities requires explanation of the viability of the scenario. I long expected the Staff shops to be moved--I had speculated they might be moved next to the bakery in Ball Lot. Moving Circle D had been planned even before SWGE. Horticulture and Recycling were relocated on-property.

IMHO, they have achieved 80-95% of possible expansion area from relocation. Their primary expansion areas are Autopia/Subs/Motor Boats (and possibly FLT), SE corner of DCA (already allocated to Marvel), Possible NE corner of DCA if bus dropoff is moved, and ToonTown and footprint of Entertainment building (if it is shifted farther North). But anything on the North side of DL is impacted by Pyro lockdown. If you overlay the layout of SWGE with the Pyro fallout area, something like 80-90% of SWGE is outside the Stage 1 fallout zone. IOW, SWGE will not be closing down for Pyro like Toontown most of the time.

I've been talking to CMs I know about this stuff for years. If you think relocating more backstage facilities is a thing--identify what they are and how it will work. Otherwise it's a pipe dream. YMMV.
I really wish they had invested the time and design to have used the structures for the Carsland mountain range for storage. I am sure that they could have figured out a way of adding those green office buildings taking up room in the old timon lot within the mountain range supports.

Another missed oppurtunity in my opinion is not saving the bar-b-que ranch eatery. After seeing all the aerial pictures it seems like the large piece of landscaped area/ mound of dirt that was used to set the train tracks on between the frontierland entrance and the fantasyland entrance could have been built up like they did the fantasmic show building. A huge wherehouse structure with soil on top for the landscape and tracks could have fit. This large building could have been themed inside to match the frontierland area and turned into an indoor themed eatery. with the lack of space they really need to consider building expansion areas like the original Disneyland WED did and layer structures to utilize space.

as for back space area being moved for future Disneyland expansion, what they could possibly do is move the TDA building. Most of the people that work inside the building rarely step foot inside the park and if they had to, it wouldn't take long for a shuttle to bring them to the property. Then maybe they can move the structures right behind toontown to the area where the TDA building is.

I think the best location would be to move the TDA building to the corner of Ball and Harbor. They need to go forward with the new parking structure for the employees there. and while they are add it build a new TDA building.
 
If you're proposing building a 3rd gate on the Manchester property, why not just wait. Have Disney buy out more of the Harbor properties over the next couple of decades and then they can build a larger 3rd gate.

Because as it sits now, they aren't going to get a permit to put a 3rd gate there anyways.
They don’t have a permit to do anything else. Besides the parking structure, which can be salvaged, they still need additional permits for other projects. They aren’t going to get more property. The business owners have a pact to not sell to Disney. Disney also passed on GardenWalk property when it was undeveloped dirt. They are going wait anyways until a few more years after the 4th luxury hotel is completed. It’s still 10 years out. Perhaps post 2028 Olympics, something will happen. Marvel Land is the next thing that’s close on their radar.
 
They don’t have a permit to do anything else. Besides the parking structure, which can be salvaged, they still need additional permits for other projects. They aren’t going to get more property. The business owners have a pact to not sell to Disney. Disney also passed on GardenWalk property when it was undeveloped dirt. They are going wait anyways until a few more years after the 4th luxury hotel is completed. It’s still 10 years out. Perhaps post 2028 Olympics, something will happen. Marvel Land is the next thing that’s close on their radar.
They only have a permit to do the parking structure on the Manchester property, as Darkbeer has pointed out. And as Darkbeer also pointed out, because of the impact to the surrounding areas it prevents the parking structure from being built without a bridge. And the bridge still needs to be approved and permitted, which is why the project stopped. So its a non-starter to even try to get a 3rd gate on that location because the City Council isn't going to approve it due to the severe impact it would have to that area. Nor are they going to approve the required bridge at this point.

Also no one thought Disney would pick up the Carousel Inn property, but they did. Time and money is on Disney's side here. As new generations take over those businesses they become more and more willing to cash-in and walk away. So its not out of the realm of possibility that they can pick up a couple more over the next 10-20 years.
 
They only have a permit to do the parking structure on the Manchester property, as Darkbeer has pointed out. And as Darkbeer also pointed out, because of the impact to the surrounding areas it prevents the parking structure from being built without a bridge. And the bridge still needs to be approved and permitted, which is why the project stopped. So its a non-starter to even try to get a 3rd gate on that location because the City Council isn't going to approve it due to the severe impact it would have to that area. Nor are they going to approve the required bridge at this point.

Also no one thought Disney would pick up the Carousel Inn property, but they did. Time and money is on Disney's side here. As new generations take over those businesses they become more and more willing to cash-in and walk away. So its not out of the realm of possibility that they can pick up a couple more over the next 10-20 years.
Why are you restating what I already know?

It’s not out of the realm, but you already discredited the possibility since they can’t do anything with it. Why bother? (You’re not even making sense with your rigidity.)

Since I do think the Eastern Gateway is not dead, everything is still possible except for Disney buying more property. The bridge will have to be redesigned before it can be approved. Then again, I think everything has changed so Disney may have other ideas for it. Parking will be focused on MFP so the EG won’t be just parking and transportation.
 

Darkbeer1

Well-Known Member
Disney still needs the Eastern Gateway for the DCA expansion (Marvel Land). They have to move the bus plaza and security check.

A bridge of some sort over Harbor is coming. The question is when. If the elections go the way Disney hopes it does, I expect to see some sort of announced plan in mid-2019, so they can start the process of the planning commission and public input.

One thing that might benefit Disney is the opening of Star Wars Land, if the parking and traffic is as bad as expected, Disney can sell the Eastern Gateway as a solution to the mess. And if the elections go badly, Disney can blame the city for the problems....

The Eastern Gateway didn't go away, just placed in the filing cabinet waiting for the right time. Too much time and money has been spent on it.
 
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Why are you restating what I already know?
I'm restating because you keep bringing up things that are not possible in the current state of affairs. As if Disney can just sprinkle pixie dust and make it happen.

It’s not out of the realm, but you already discredited the possibility since they can’t do anything with it. Why bother? (You’re not even making sense with your rigidity.)
You are right, nothing is out of the realm of possibilities. If you want confirmation, then yes a 3rd gate could go there if all things went Disney's way. But realistically that won't happen, and we all know it. Even my idea of backstage movements is not realistic. At least I know its not realistic and have stated it was just my wish.

Since I do think the Eastern Gateway is not dead, everything is still possible except for Disney buying more property. The bridge will have to be redesigned before it can be approved. Then again, I think everything has changed so Disney may have other ideas for it. Parking will be focused on MFP so the EG won’t be just parking and transportation.
Don't be so rigid on the idea of Disney not being able to buying more properties, remember nothing is out of the realm as you said. With the right amount of money some of these properties can be picked up. But I know realistically it will not be all of Harbor, just one or two here and there.

As for the Eastern Gateway, I will agree its not dead but its been put on indefinite hold. When I stated it was dead to me, that is just me being the pessimist about the state of Anaheim politics. As I have no faith that the election will go Disney's way this cycle. But hey I may be surprised, and by this time next year we are talking about the revival of the Eastern Gateway. But when it does get revived it will be just parking and transportation.
 
I'm restating because you keep bringing up things that are not possible in the current state of affairs. As if Disney can just sprinkle pixie dust and make it happen.

You are right, nothing is out of the realm of possibilities. If you want confirmation, then yes a 3rd gate could go there if all things went Disney's way. But realistically that won't happen, and we all know it. Even my idea of backstage movements is not realistic. At least I know its not realistic and have stated it was just my wish.


Don't be so rigid on the idea of Disney not being able to buying more properties, remember nothing is out of the realm as you said. With the right amount of money some of these properties can be picked up. But I know realistically it will not be all of Harbor, just one or two here and there.

As for the Eastern Gateway, I will agree its not dead but its been put on indefinite hold. When I stated it was dead to me, that is just me being the pessimist about the state of Anaheim politics. As I have no faith that the election will go Disney's way this cycle. But hey I may be surprised, and by this time next year we are talking about the revival of the Eastern Gateway. But when it does get revived it will be just parking and transportation.
No that’s you trying to discredit me and you giving yourself alot of leeway to say whatever you fancy.

Go ahead and spinkle that pixie dust on buying property for a parking and transportation project. Makes no sense, but you say it anyways for a project you declared dead. Not dead when Darkbeer finally comes to the rescue.
 
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