News New Gondola Transportation - Disney Skyliner -

[NoChesterHester]

Interesting question. Though it could be like the bay lake/7 seas boat service.. limited only to that area.

Possibly.

It is relatively cheap and very efficient in operations. I'd be pretty surprised if there wasn't at least a concept of how this was the start of a bigger system if it is wildly successful.

 

[GCTales]

Any rumors on how the system would be expanded? They wouldn't build it without at least a plan of how it would tie into more of the property.

As each loop is self contained, it would appear to require another full loop - so any potential expansion could be completely stand alone such a line from AK to AKL.

Or it may be that Disney plans on keeping this a "unique" transportation mode for this area - kind of like the monorail loop.

 

[cosmicgirl]

As far as I understand it, CBR south is a transfer point for everyone. It is 3 lines, each operating to and from CBR South.

The only issue I see is for those at the Riviera Resort. I assume they will have communication to both IG and CBR South to control how many empty gondolas to send for the waiting guests. The numbers will depend on whether it's just Riviera guests or also those in the north side of CBR. My guess is it will be for both resorts.

But thanks for this. You explained it very well, imo. And welcome to the boards!

Thank you . I was specifically aiming to explain that CBR, or the center point as @thomas998 called it, would not be much of an issue but I completely agree with your assessment of Riviera. Whether or not CBR North guests will be able to to access the Riviera station would not make a difference for the CBR transfer point, which is why I didn't mention it.

Well thought out and nicely written. Only point I would make has already been made..

Oh and welcome..

Thank you!

Solid post. Welcome to the forums.

Thanks .

 

[Grimley1968]

As each loop is self contained, it would appear to require another full loop - so any potential expansion could be completely stand alone such a line from AK to AKL.

Or it may be that Disney plans on keeping this a "unique" transportation mode for this area - kind of like the monorail loop.

IMO, gondolas between AK and AKL would be perfect. It would finally bring non-bus transportation between the two and it seems a lot easier to install than any kind of light rail between the two. Other than that, it's hard to imagine many good places to put gondola lines that aren't already served by either monorail or boats.

 

[marni1971]

They consulted with the system vendor and decided that getting the AC option was not necessary..

They've actually done a lot of physical testing and deemed it's not necessary.

 

[marni1971]

It'll have open-air windows a.k.a bars on the side.

No they won't.

There will be ventilation strips in the appropriate places.

 

[marni1971]

Any rumors on how the system would be expanded? They wouldn't build it without at least a plan of how it would tie into more of the property.

At the present this system won't be expanded.

 

[Movielover]

Other than that, it's hard to imagine many good places to put gondola lines that aren't already served by either monorail or boats.

I could easily see something like this if the EPCOT/DHS is successful

 

[ToTBellHop]

Can dementors attack the gondola?

 

[Movielover]

Can dementors attack the gondola?

No but there's always the chance of giant gorilla...
http://www./wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Universal_Studios_Kongfrontation.jpg

 

[thomas998]

The reasonable part of my brain is telling me to stay out of this discussion, especially as a newbie, but the wiseass part won so here we go.

1. I would much rather be stuck on a gondola without a/c but another type of ventilation than on one with a/c. The thing with moving enclosed spaces with a/c is that they often have no other source of ventilation because the operators want to avoid that passengers open windows with the a/c blasting at full power. It's a waste of energy. Having been stuck for hours on a high-speed train on a hot Summer day here in Europe we were wishing the damn thing didn't have a/c because in a loss of power situation there was zero ventilation. Windows could not be opened, doors could not be opened and people were passing out due to lack of fresh air. So I'll gladly take any type of ventilation which does not require power, or which can operate independently when the rest of the system is down. And to those of you who continue to whine about the lack of a/c I suggest you stay at a bus resort. More space for the rest of us.

2. I have predominantly stayed at high-volume value resorts, as well as CSR and CBR. Never have I seen more people arrive at a single bus stop at the same time than a gondola system could handle. In extreme cases there may be a short wait, yes, but the main difference between a gondola system and the buses is that there is a constant flow, so there would not be a 20-minute buildup of people waiting for a bus to arrive. As others have mentioned, ski resorts, much like WDW, deal with peak periods of people wanting to get up the mountain and these types of systems deal with that demand very well. Having been on the Peak2Peak in Whistler imo it is nothing short of awesome and I have the utmost confidence in Doppelmayr and Disney for this project. I can't wait for the gondolas to operate in WDW and if you don't like them, don't ride them. Plain and simple.

3. To @thomas998, the guy who talked about 2 gondolas coming in and only one going out: this is a non-issue as there will always be people exiting at the center point. There is only one scenario where I could see things slowing down, namely the CBR transfer point at park closing may involve a little bit of a wait for people going from DHS to PopArt.

Based on the number of rooms for each resort:
- PopArt 4864;
- CBR roughly 1800, assuming they demolished 312 rooms;
- DRR roughly 336 to end up with the nicely rounded number of 7000 rooms having access to the gondola;
the traffic mix would be roughly 70% PopArt, 25% CBR, and 5% DRR.

During a morning peak they can fill the gondolas to capacity at PopArt and as long as an average of roughly 43% of PopArt guests go to DHS there will always be enough capacity on the Epcot line to accommodate CBR and DRR guests going to Epcot, because they only represent 25+5=30% of the total number of rooms. So as long 30% out of PopArt's 70% share of the total number of rooms (=43%) go to DHS there is no issue, even in the extreme case where ALL of the guests at CBR and DRR would want to go to Epcot. The same is true if you switch the parks: let's say all of the guests at CBR and DRR want to go to DHS (unlikely), then it would be sufficient for 43% of PopArt's guests to go to Epcot for the DHS line not to jam up at CBR. For EMH mornings when everyone wants to go to the same park I could see them letting 1 out of 3 gondolas leave PopArt empty so CBR and DRR could flow in seamlessly.

During an evening peak they could fill to capacity at the Epcot station and by the time they reach CBR an average of 30% of the capacity would open up for the DHS-PopArt traffic to flow in. Assuming that all lines run at the same capacity (number of gondolas per minute) and that the Epcot to PopArt line is continuous (no transfer required, which is not a given) then the wait time to get from CBR to PopArt could theoretically become higher because only 1 out of 3 gondolas would be available. Again this is assuming that you don't have to transfer when going from Epcot to PopArt. If you do have to transfer then the wait time would even out between the ex-Epcot and the ex-DHS guests because they would feed into the same line. Theoretically, a wait time could indeed occur here because you would have a demand of 140% of your gondola capacity.

In practice the traffic mix will not be constant and not all people of CBR and DRR will want to visit the same park, nor will everyone want to leave at the same time. I believe that CMs will be instructed to let every xth cabin leave empty at the end stations if there is an expected buildup at CBR or DRR, much like spots are left open on the Railroad to accommodate guests at the next stations. They will probably have to finetune things during early operation to reach an optimal guest flow. For guests the waiting time should also be a lot more pleasant because it will be a moving line instead of a static one. I'd much rather wait in a moving line than to have to wait for a bus to show up for 20 minutes while standing still. From my pov this project is an absolute winner and I can't wait for the system to be operational!

Now I'm gonna go hide from a potential counterattack.

Well the high speed trains have no windows that open for safety reason, you wouldn't want some idiot opening a window at 250mph that would cause some serious problems... But in a Gondola you could easily have windows that would open along with AC... But I see a problem with windows from when the Gondolas pass over roads and other areas where your typical hoodlum will be trying to drop things on the cars or people below, that was a problem with the skylifts when they had them in the parks and would be an even greater problem on this systems since there are going to be a lot of spaces where the gondolas are going to be far removed from any CMs that might be watching.

Now on to your traffic mix analysis. The number of rooms at each resort doesn't really matter because the expectation is that at opening time you are going to have most gondolas filled from all resorts heading to the park just like you tend to get all the buses filled whether the resort has 500 rooms or 2500 rooms. That being the case when you have two lines that meet at a transfer station with only one line leaving for a park you will have a problem. Look at it this way you are in a group on a gondola from resort A, a friend is in a group on one from B and you meet at the transfer station. Only one of those groups gets on the next gondola to a park, the other one has to wait... 30 seconds later groups C and D arrive but too bad for them because the next gondola leaving is take group B so now C and D are waiting... as E and F arrive C goes and now your have 3 groups waiting in line... The number of groups waiting in line will continue to grow until you have gondolas arriving from the resorts that are either all half full or less. That is the problem I was speaking of.. has nothing to do with how many people are each resort only that 2 lines converge to one.

 

[danlb_2000]

Well the high speed trains have no windows that open for safety reason, you wouldn't want some idiot opening a window at 250mph that would cause some serious problems... But in a Gondola you could easily have windows that would open along with AC... But I see a problem with windows from when the Gondolas pass over roads and other areas where your typical hoodlum will be trying to drop things on the cars or people below, that was a problem with the skylifts when they had them in the parks and would be an even greater problem on this systems since there are going to be a lot of spaces where the gondolas are going to be far removed from any CMs that might be watching.

Now on to your traffic mix analysis. The number of rooms at each resort doesn't really matter because the expectation is that at opening time you are going to have most gondolas filled from all resorts heading to the park just like you tend to get all the buses filled whether the resort has 500 rooms or 2500 rooms. That being the case when you have two lines that meet at a transfer station with only one line leaving for a park you will have a problem. Look at it this way you are in a group on a gondola from resort A, a friend is in a group on one from B and you meet at the transfer station. Only one of those groups gets on the next gondola to a park, the other one has to wait... 30 seconds later groups C and D arrive but too bad for them because the next gondola leaving is take group B so now C and D are waiting... as E and F arrive C goes and now your have 3 groups waiting in line... The number of groups waiting in line will continue to grow until you have gondolas arriving from the resorts that are either all half full or less. That is the problem I was speaking of.. has nothing to do with how many people are each resort only that 2 lines converge to one.

But there is only one transfer station and it has two lines leaving for parks.

 

[Grimley1968]

Since we're into them

 

[Jordanaous]

I don't really get the capacity complaints regarding the Gondola. You wait for pretty much all transportation at Walt Disney World as it is...

A single articulated bus has the capacity of about 125 people. I know that they're more frequent in the morning, but the average time between buses is around 20 minutes. That means you're looking at an hourly capacity of around 375? I know it doesn't exactly work out that way, and at peak times it's no where near a 20 minute wait. But comparatively, the capacity for the resort buses is going to be lower than that of the Gondola system.

The boats between Port Orleans and Disney Springs have a capacity of 34 people, and they also run up to one every 20 minutes. That gives it a minimum capacity of around 102 people per hour. Yet people don't seem to criticise that as an amenity available to guests.

The Gondola system is completely different though. Think of it more as a PeopleMover, it's constantly loading people, which means even if there is a queue, it's constantly moving. Which to me, is better than standing around waiting for what seems like forever. We've already got examples of gondola systems that have the capacity of 4,500 people per hour, so I don't envisage anyone having a problem getting on-board the system in a reasonable timespan. It'll be just like the monorail, you may have to wait, but not long.

 

[Wsny11]

I'm surprised they didn't include a loop to the front of Epcot, directly connecting this system to the monorail.

 

[thomas998]

But there is only one transfer station and it has two lines leaving for parks.

You have one line going from AoA to a transfer station. One line going from Caribbean Beach to the same transfer station and that transfer station only connects to the two resorts and Hollywood Studios. Now you might argue that some people are going to stay on get on the line that goes to Caribbean Beach so they can go to Epcot... But on a day when Epcot opens late and Hollywood Studio has an early opening you would really only have people going from Caribbean to the transfer station to then go Hollywood and all the people leaving AoA would also be doing the same. At those times you have a problem. You are probably going to also have a problem if Epcot opens earliest because then everyone will be going from AoA to Epcot giving full loads of people to hit the point in Caribbean where you are going to have guests wanting to get on and go Epcot as well... Unclear if the gongola point at Caribbean will require people getting off one car and onto an other or not from the maps they've shown... if they don't have to get off and switch cars then the people at Caribbean will be a bit like the people at Grand Floridian are sometimes on the monorail loop where you have lines forming because their are few seats available in the morning because the monorail has already stopped at two other resorts before it gets to yours... Will mean lines of Caribbean visitor waiting for a free spot if they have no gondola switch... if they have one then the lines will be filled with both Caribbean visitors and AoA people.

Don't get me wrong I was sad when they pulled the skyride from the parks... but I just don't see this as being a great solution. In fact it will really only create more problems at the front gate, assuming they don't cut back on some of the other transportation options you've now just got more people getting dropped off at the already congested front gate to any park this system connects to... Would be nice if they would try to expand the parks instead of the system that gets people into the parks.

 

[cosmicgirl]

Well the high speed trains have no windows that open for safety reason, you wouldn't want some idiot opening a window at 250mph that would cause some serious problems... But in a Gondola you could easily have windows that would open along with AC... But I see a problem with windows from when the Gondolas pass over roads and other areas where your typical hoodlum will be trying to drop things on the cars or people below, that was a problem with the skylifts when they had them in the parks and would be an even greater problem on this systems since there are going to be a lot of spaces where the gondolas are going to be far removed from any CMs that might be watching.

Now on to your traffic mix analysis. The number of rooms at each resort doesn't really matter because the expectation is that at opening time you are going to have most gondolas filled from all resorts heading to the park just like you tend to get all the buses filled whether the resort has 500 rooms or 2500 rooms. That being the case when you have two lines that meet at a transfer station with only one line leaving for a park you will have a problem. Look at it this way you are in a group on a gondola from resort A, a friend is in a group on one from B and you meet at the transfer station. Only one of those groups gets on the next gondola to a park, the other one has to wait... 30 seconds later groups C and D arrive but too bad for them because the next gondola leaving is take group B so now C and D are waiting... as E and F arrive C goes and now your have 3 groups waiting in line... The number of groups waiting in line will continue to grow until you have gondolas arriving from the resorts that are either all half full or less. That is the problem I was speaking of.. has nothing to do with how many people are each resort only that 2 lines converge to one.

As danlb_2000 just mentioned there are indeed 2 lines leaving for parks. Plus, even when you only focus on the CBR-DHS line the number of rooms (well, people in reality) does matter because for every 1 person arriving from CBR and Riviera there will be 2.3 arriving from the values (or 3 vs. 7 if you prefer to count in whole people). Your assumption is that the arrival rate at CBR is equal from both directions but it's not because the demand simply isn't there. Going back to the estimated room count: CBR + DRR = 2136. With an average of 3 people per room you're looking at 6408 guests. With a gondola capacity of 2400pph this would mean that you could move all guests staying at CBR&DRR in 2 hours and 40 minutes, however these people are not all going to the same park and certainly not at the same time. There will never be 2400pph wanting to go from CBR and DRR to DHS all at the same time, except when SWL opens probably.

 

[thomas998]

As danlb_2000 just mentioned there are indeed 2 lines leaving for parks. Plus, even when you only focus on the CBR-DHS line the number of rooms (well, people in reality) does matter because for every 1 person arriving from CBR and Riviera there will be 2.3 arriving from the values (or 3 vs. 7 if you prefer to count in whole people). Your assumption is that the arrival rate at CBR is equal from both directions but it's not because the demand simply isn't there. Going back to the estimated room count: CBR + DRR = 2136. With an average of 3 people per room you're looking at 6408 guests. With a gondola capacity of 2400pph this would mean that you could move all guests staying at CBR&DRR in 2 hours and 40 minutes, however these people are not all going to the same park and certainly not at the same time. There will never be 2400pph wanting to go from CBR and DRR to DHS all at the same time, except when SWL opens probably.

Nope... In the morning you have a massive amount of guest leaving all the resorts for the parks. The Gondolas aren't going to be moving faster from one resort than from another and will have the same cars at each so every car leaving CBR will be just as full as the ones leaving any other park in the morning. They will all be dumping people at the same transfer point for a park, in my example Hollywood Studios which is going to be the exact same gondola system that dumped them off removing people at the same rate that people are removed from the CBR... So when CBR and any other resort dump guest at the transfer point going to Hollywood Studios there is going to be a build up of guests. Not sure why you can't see that. You keep focusing on the numbers of people at a hotel which has nothing to do with the number that are going to get on a car leaving that hotel in the morning rush. Just because you are in a resort that has half as many guests doesn't mean the Cast Member at the gondola station is only going to allow half as many people to the gondola that is leaving the station...They will fill it up to capacity and that is the problem.

 

[Grimley1968]

Whoever previously mentioned the loading of this being like the loading for the Peoplemover was right on, IMO, although these gondolas will hold more people. I'd be willing to bet that there will soon be many empty gondolas departing just like there are often empty Peoplemover cars, just like about any continuous load system they have. I'm definitely in the "not worried about capacity" camp.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Design Demand is not Peak Demand. It doesn’t matter what the system is, it just isn’t practical. Psychologically, a moving queue is better than a static queue. The gondolas will handle people better than the buses and have better queue psychology.