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News New Gondola Transportation - Disney Skyliner - Every Possible What If ....? Has Been Discussed.

MiddKid

Well-Known Member
But on the flip side I would think that at a ski resort you are going to see far fewer people with infants or little kids in tow, or people with mobility problems which are more common at Disney.

Disagree. Just spend one morning at a major resort gondola and you'll see ski school after ski school class loading the gondolas. And think about these classes. It's pretty common to see one instructor with a bunch of 5-year-olds in tow. Not only that, those 5-year-olds are wearing ski boots and trying to carry heavy (for them) skis with sharp edges. And their skis aren't long enough to fit in the outside holders so they bring them inside the cabin. Oh, and they can't see where they are going since they have helmets on and their goggles are fogged up.

See these kids at Whistler in the below pic? They all loaded the Whistler Village Gondola that morning, carrying their own gear, without their parents. The main Whistler Kids learning area is at mid-station of the gondola. I can tell you from experience, the gondola doesn't slow down!
080123-WHISTLER-forKids-hmed-550p.grid-6x2.jpg
 

creathir

Monorail and PeopleMover Fanatic
Premium Member
Disagree. Just spend one morning at a major resort gondola and you'll see ski school after ski school class loading the gondolas. And think about these classes. It's pretty common to see one instructor with a bunch of 5-year-olds in tow. Not only that, those 5-year-olds are wearing ski boots and trying to carry heavy (for them) skis with sharp edges. And their skis aren't long enough to fit in the outside holders so they bring them inside the cabin. Oh, and they can't see where they are going since they have helmets on and their goggles are fogged up.

See these kids at Whistler in the below pic? They all loaded the Whistler Village Gondola that morning, carrying their own gear, without their parents. The main Whistler Kids learning area is at mid-station of the gondola. I can tell you from experience, the gondola doesn't slow down!
View attachment 202638

There is a huge difference between a class full of athletically bread 5 year olds (likely been active most of their lives given their parents brought them skiing in the first place) and an elderly person whom has never driven an ECV before and is not exactly confident with it.

Just ask my shins...

I'm not saying they will have a problem, but I can definitely understand the concern some have with this.

We'll just have to see how it works out and flows...
 

Lift Blog

Well-Known Member
I'm familiar with how they work, and this is the failure mode I was questioning with an auxiliary load option. Auxiliary, not second, I'll describe later.

Totally not an issue for strollers, most wheel chairs, most other mobility aids, and all walking. It's a slow moving gondola (super slow, just slightly faster than actually stopped) that you transition to from a stopped platform. Probably even easier than getting on and off and escalator, same pattern of a transition from stopped to moving.

But, it's not actually stopped. The gondola platform is moving, say to the right, while the platform is fixed. Loading a wheeled transport that's long requires aiming slightly to the right, not straight in. For someone walking, or pushing a stroller, that the angle changes mid load by a little to a different angle is no big deal. A long mobility device or disability wheelchair, that angle change could cause a problem, that becomes an issue of taking longer or jamming and preventing the door from closing.

When I said auxiliary loading for special use cases, I mean totally auxiliary not a normal load split into two paths. The normal path they're using, and then something that's technically like a maintenance track used for auxiliary loading. Totally disconnected from the normal flow. Pull a car out to an auxiliary path, just like for maintenance. Fully stop it. Take as long as you want to load someone. Swap it back into the main load line already fully loaded with doors closed. The same way they would pull a car and replace it there are interior car issues, say someone pukes in a car. Not a second place to create issues, since it's totally removed from the normal line.

However, it probably is over engineering. I would think reasonable over engineering. But, maybe those maintenance shunts are harder to use or have more issues making it less appealing. Or, maybe cast member assistance is enough to overcome this issue most of the time and easier to maintain than extra track shunts.

The problem with that is spacing. You need a gap large enough to inject the "auxiliary-loaded" cabin. Leaving lots of gaps for this reason would hurt capacity. The lift also generally must be stopped to switch to the feed rail and again to switch back. Whenever you park cabins or inject them, it's best to do a bunch at one time rather than one or two.

Example: Say you want to go from "full cabins" to "half cabins." You don't take every other cabin off. You park the entire line, then re-inject with bigger spacing. Loading individual cabins off the line goes counter to all of this.
 

MiddKid

Well-Known Member
There is a huge difference between a class full of athletically bread 5 year olds (likely been active most of their lives given their parents brought them skiing in the first place) and an elderly person whom has never driven an ECV before and is not exactly confident with it.
Just ask my shins...

My response with the kids was aimed at the "I would think that at a ski resort you are going to see far fewer people with infants or little kids in tow" comment rather than the ECV situation.

Although a five year old in plastic ski boots wielding two sticks with sharp edges is arguably just as scary as any person who has never driven an ECV...just ask MY shins! Having started all three of my daughters skiing when they were two I have the bruises to show for it!

;)
 

mmascari

Well-Known Member
The problem with that is spacing. You need a gap large enough to inject the "auxiliary-loaded" cabin. Leaving lots of gaps for this reason would hurt capacity. The lift also generally must be stopped to switch to the feed rail and again to switch back. Whenever you park cabins or inject them, it's best to do a bunch at one time rather than one or two.

Example: Say you want to go from "full cabins" to "half cabins." You don't take every other cabin off. You park the entire line, then re-inject with bigger spacing. Loading individual cabins off the line goes counter to all of this.

I was thinking, one for one swap. You don't need any gaps in the line, you just pull a car after it's unloaded before getting to the load zone.

I know I've seen it done without stopping the main line. It was probably 20 years ago, a regular cabin was pulled out and a cargo platform loaded with supplies swapped in. They just skipped one person in the normal load line. I can't remember for sure if they pulled if off the line at a midway station or at the top.

I'm not sure why you would need to stop the main line for any changes in the routing in the slow section of travel, they seem totally disconnected. I suppose it depends on how you design the track and any junctions in the slow section. From the assorted articles that have complicated designs, it must be something that is possible. However, I can also see where it's much simpler to design and maintain one where there isn't an easy change to the slow section. If it's not a simple change, the risk of filling up the area between the disconnect and the junction would be large enough to need to stop the main line.

It's all a trade off and a variety of choices. From simply large loading areas allowing for lots of time with any assistance needed. To manual bypass, to automated many lanes of normal loading, to automated routing through stations where many lines meet routing cars between the different lines as the riders whim. Different complexity, maintenance, and cost for each type of solution. (These are made up options as an example, not anything planned clearly.)


For the Disney system, I would hope they can swap a single car on demand at the maintenance shed without stopping the line. Doesn't have to be to support special loading, but to deal with car interior "issues". I can think of all kinds of things that would require not loading people into a car after one passenger exits prior to a cleaning or maintenance. People are disgusting and have issues after all. Clearly not every car and not every time. But, a toddler with a diaper blow out, a sick passenger, or a vandal that causes damage are all example that would knock a car out. At a ski resort, they just put yellow tape on the door and lock it. Run it around until night and then deal with it. I would hope that Disney would be able to pull the car from the line and replace it.
 

Goob

Well-Known Member
Forgive me if this has been discussed, but how will they tackle air conditioning? I'm assuming each gondola will have its own unit, correct? I mean that's the only way. How do other gondola systems around the world in hot climates approach this?
 

matt9112

Well-Known Member
Ah, I understand what you're saying now.

To each his own I suppose?

For some The being onsite and free transportation is a good trade off for stuff like you are talking about. But it's really a personal preference question.

You can stay at the spring hill at flamingo for 85ish through a discount site and rent a car for 40ish right?
 

Lift Blog

Well-Known Member
I was thinking, one for one swap. You don't need any gaps in the line, you just pull a car after it's unloaded before getting to the load zone.

I know I've seen it done without stopping the main line. It was probably 20 years ago, a regular cabin was pulled out and a cargo platform loaded with supplies swapped in. They just skipped one person in the normal load line. I can't remember for sure if they pulled if off the line at a midway station or at the top.

I'm not sure why you would need to stop the main line for any changes in the routing in the slow section of travel, they seem totally disconnected. I suppose it depends on how you design the track and any junctions in the slow section. From the assorted articles that have complicated designs, it must be something that is possible. However, I can also see where it's much simpler to design and maintain one where there isn't an easy change to the slow section. If it's not a simple change, the risk of filling up the area between the disconnect and the junction would be large enough to need to stop the main line.

It's all a trade off and a variety of choices. From simply large loading areas allowing for lots of time with any assistance needed. To manual bypass, to automated many lanes of normal loading, to automated routing through stations where many lines meet routing cars between the different lines as the riders whim. Different complexity, maintenance, and cost for each type of solution. (These are made up options as an example, not anything planned clearly.)


For the Disney system, I would hope they can swap a single car on demand at the maintenance shed without stopping the line. Doesn't have to be to support special loading, but to deal with car interior "issues". I can think of all kinds of things that would require not loading people into a car after one passenger exits prior to a cleaning or maintenance. People are disgusting and have issues after all. Clearly not every car and not every time. But, a toddler with a diaper blow out, a sick passenger, or a vandal that causes damage are all example that would knock a car out. At a ski resort, they just put yellow tape on the door and lock it. Run it around until night and then deal with it. I would hope that Disney would be able to pull the car from the line and replace it.

They will be able to pull the car but will have to stop the lift. That's just how it is. Actually two short stops. We just went an entire winter without taking a single cabin off the line on our new Doppelmayr. The maintenance facility wasn't finished but it was fine.
 

Ripken10

Well-Known Member
There is a huge difference between a class full of athletically bread 5 year olds (likely been active most of their lives given their parents brought them skiing in the first place) and an elderly person whom has never driven an ECV before and is not exactly confident with it.

Just ask my shins...

I'm not saying they will have a problem, but I can definitely understand the concern some have with this.

We'll just have to see how it works out and flows...
Not every kid is athletic that skis. At certain resorts, yes there is more. But I have seen quite a few non athletic kids giving skiing a try. You get all sorts of different levels at ski resorts. This includes adults too. There is a lot more varying degree at these ski resorts than you imagine. And the ski schools is a great example. Some of the best blooper tapes (imo) are ski ones - and ask most seasoned skiers (I didn't say expert), and they will tell you every ski trip comes back with multiple stories of things that happened that would show you not everybody on a ski resort is athletic (or smart)
 

mmascari

Well-Known Member
They will be able to pull the car but will have to stop the lift. That's just how it is. Actually two short stops. We just went an entire winter without taking a single cabin off the line on our new Doppelmayr. The maintenance facility wasn't finished but it was fine.

That seems like a design choice and not a technical requirement.

For a system that detaches and reattaches every car at every station on every passage through the station, to hard couple the path through the station with the movement of the main line feels like an unnecessary restriction.

Obviously, you have to plan that you have enough space for arriving cars to enter. But, after that condition is met, everything else feels like unnecessary restrictions. Design, maintenance, and operation choices for what to support definitely but I can't think why it would be hard technical requirement.
 

NormC

Well-Known Member
Forgive me if this has been discussed, but how will they tackle air conditioning? I'm assuming each gondola will have its own unit, correct? I mean that's the only way. How do other gondola systems around the world in hot climates approach this?
There will not be air conditioning. Just proper ventilation.
 

Lift Blog

Well-Known Member
That seems like a design choice and not a technical requirement.

For a system that detaches and reattaches every car at every station on every passage through the station, to hard couple the path through the station with the movement of the main line feels like an unnecessary restriction.

Obviously, you have to plan that you have enough space for arriving cars to enter. But, after that condition is met, everything else feels like unnecessary restrictions. Design, maintenance, and operation choices for what to support definitely but I can't think why it would be hard technical requirement.

You have another cabin coming ~18 seconds behind the one you want to park. That's not enough time to switch to the park rail, push the cabin off, then switch back. In fact, if you start moving station rails with the line moving, the system stops automatically on every modern gondola I've seen. It won't let you risk pushing a cabin into a half-open rail and having it fall to the ground.

We are really descending into the weeds here.
 

Bocabear

Well-Known Member
OK, so no one knws EXACTLY what the system is and the details of EXACTLY how it will run at each station...Why are we even discussing how they are going to deal with specific loading problems when we really do not know what the stations and system will be?
 

Kman101

Well-Known Member
I know some are valid concerns like how long it will take to load, but it seems like some are looking for issues where there aren't really going to be any. Everything will be fine. Loading will be fine. It's going to be a cool transportation option to have.
 

larryz

virus test dummy
Premium Member
For the Disney system, I would hope they can swap a single car on demand at the maintenance shed without stopping the line. Doesn't have to be to support special loading, but to deal with car interior "issues". I can think of all kinds of things that would require not loading people into a car after one passenger exits prior to a cleaning or maintenance. People are disgusting and have issues after all. Clearly not every car and not every time. But, a toddler with a diaper blow out, a sick passenger, or a vandal that causes damage are all example that would knock a car out. At a ski resort, they just put yellow tape on the door and lock it. Run it around until night and then deal with it. I would hope that Disney would be able to pull the car from the line and replace it.
Yep. Imagine a full gondola returning F&W revelers to their value resort after a hot afternoon of eating questionable snacks off of trash bins, whooping it up and guzzling it down in all 11 countries...
Icon.vomit.gif
 
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