News New Changes Coming to the Disney Look 2021

Oddysey

Well-Known Member
Alright, I’ll bite once on this and I’ll respectfully bow out of further conversation regarding this.

You said- “The person dressed in said manner has a condition where their brain perceives that they are female, but were given the body of a male.”

I think you’re trying but the way you phrased it is kind of insulting. Transgender people aren’t broken. They’re not sick. A transgender woman is a woman, not a man. If you disagree I won’t be able to change your mind, but I’m not going to worry about how other people want to present themselves to society.

My post was not meant as a lure to get you to "bite." If it came off that way then I apologize. I was genuinely requesting your guidance because I didn't see where I confused the issue, and I am still not exactly clear. If what I said is "kind of insulting", I would imagine that Mayo Clinic's description of symptoms of gender dysphoria and its listing in the in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders published by the American Psychiatric Association to diagnose mental conditions must be at the very least equally insulting. They literally describe it as a mental condition and I left out the word mental in my hypothetical explaination to my daughter. I never referred to a transgender woman as sick. My hypothetical description to my daughter was a very simplistic way to describe why a transgender woman is wearing a skirt and is based on what leading experts in the medical community refer to as gender dysphoria. One of the symptoms being "a strong desire to be treated as the other gender or an alternate gender different from the assigned gender" and a second "symptom being a strong desire for the primary and/or secondary sex characteristics of the other gender."

Assuming I am completely daft and in this case maybe I am, can you please in layman's terms describe the difference in a transgender woman wearing a dress and a man wearing a dress? In your opinion, the hypothetical description I gave to my daughter is "insulting." Understand I do not want to be insulting. I want to be correct and also understand your perspective. The understanding of another perspective is the basis for better communication between those who may disagree.

Given my daughter and most inquisitive children (and adults for that matter) will not be satiated by simplistic answers such as "because they want to" or "because I said so," how should it be explained to a child who seeks further understanding. And believe me, they do seek for better understanding as we all do.

Edit: To be clear, just as you I don’t care how someone chooses to present themselves in society.

 
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TP2000

Well-Known Member
We shall see. The pendulum is always turning... I mean the turntable is always swinging. How does it go? :p

In 1970 college kids looked like hell. They were literally rolling in mud naked on their way to class and wanted to rebuild society.

Just five years later they were feathering their hair and lengthening their skirts and wanted to join a good fraternity or sorority.

And five years after that the college kids all turned into little preppies in Izod shirts and khakis and perfectly coiffed hair, trying for all the world to look as though they just sauntered off the country club tennis court on the way to class.

The younger generation has a habit of up-ending everything the previous generations did, and the pendulum swings hard the other way. Just watch. 🧐
 

TP2000

Well-Known Member
My post was not meant as a lure to get you to "bite." If it came off that way then I apologize. I was genuinely requesting your guidance because I didn't see where I confused the issue, and I am still not exactly clear. If what I said is "kind of insulting", I would imagine that Mayo Clinic's description of symptoms of gender dysphoria and its listing in the in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders published by the American Psychiatric Association to diagnose mental conditions must be at the very least equally insulting. They literally describe it as a mental condition and I left out the word mental in my hypothetical explaination to my daughter. I never referred to a transgender woman as sick. My hypothetical description to my daughter was a very simplistic way to describe why a transgender woman is wearing a skirt and is based on what leading experts in the medical community refer to as gender dysphoria. One of the symptoms being "a strong desire to be treated as the other gender or an alternate gender different from the assigned gender" and a second "symptom being a strong desire for the primary and/or secondary sex characteristics of the other gender."

Assuming I am completely daft and in this case maybe I am, can you please in layman's terms describe the difference in a transgender woman wearing a dress and a man wearing a dress? In your opinion, the hypothetical description I gave to my daughter is "insulting." Understand I do not want to be insulting. I want to be correct and also understand your perspective. The understanding of another perspective is the basis for better communication between those who may disagree.

Given my daughter and most inquisitive children (and adults for that matter) will not be satiated by simplistic answers such as "because they want to" or "because I said so," how should it be explained to a child who seeks further understanding. And believe me, they do seek for better understanding as we all do.

Edit: To be clear, just as you I don’t care how someone chooses to present themselves in society.


Thank you!

I think this is what's wrong with so many well-meaning people; they preach and tsk-tsk at anyone who doesn't use their approved terms or phrasing or new vocabulary. As if those of us who have never gone to formal training in transgender issues (the vast majority of Americans) are somehow hateful or hurtful people for not using the right words or not parroting the approved talking points.

If a man wears a dress and obviously puts some effort into his appearance to look more feminine, I'll be happy to call him a she. Heck, so many women go out in public nowadays in sloppy pajamas and greasy hair pulled into a dingy scrunchy that if some man puts effort into his outfit/hair/makeup I think he should be commended for that. And if that means calling him a she, then that's fine. More power to him, or her.

That's about the extent to which I care about transgender issues. Treat others as you would like to be treated, and that's about all the training I'm going to need for that tiny minority of people. We all make instant sub conscious decisions about whether the person next to us in line at Target is a male human or a female human, then we respond accordingly by saying "Ma'am, go ahead of me, you've only got two items" or "Sir, go ahead of me, you've only got two items."

If a guy dresses up like a woman to make his Target run, that's cool. I don't care. Just be polite and treat others at Target as you would like to be treated. No advanced training or new language is needed for that, nor should it be expected in order to be considered a good person.
 

ToTBellHop

Well-Known Member
Honestly this attitude sums up so much of what is wrong with political debates these days. If I like the historical “Disney look” that automatically means I’m against CM’s?

Same argument with Splash... if I like splash mountain and wish it would stay as is I’m automatically a racist.

Heck the reason I feel like the Disney look matters is because Disney themselves taught me that!
K. Good luck finding themed entertainment with your values, then. I’m proud of the company. You are against CMs if you don’t want them to be comfortable, yes. When you tell someone, “presenting yourself in a way that pleases me is more important than presenting yourself in a way that pleases you,” you do not support that person. As a parent of a non-gender-conforming child, I can confirm that it is not easy to present oneself in a way others do not expect. You choose how to present yourself because that is what makes you happy and others should really keep their opinions to themselves. Employers should want happy employees. I understand there is a standard of professionalism with the company. It is being maintained.
 

TrainsOfDisney

Well-Known Member
K. Good luck finding themed entertainment with your values, then. I’m proud of the company. You are against CMs if you don’t want them to be comfortable, yes. When you tell someone, “presenting yourself in a way that pleases me is more important than presenting yourself in a way that pleases you,” you do not support that person.
What values? I’m talking about professional standards not moral values.

I’ve been to cedar fair, universal, sea world, etc. which all have different standards. That’s fine. Disney used to brag about the Disney difference and how high of a standard they had set. That’s one of the reasons I liked Disney Parks enough to visit them multiple times a year.

If we really wanted cm’s to be comfortable we wouldn’t want any of them in character costumes... those things are the furthest thing from comfortable you can get!
 

Smooth

Well-Known Member
Would anyone support a CM presenting themselves naked? I suspect the answer to be, no. How about thongs, bikinis, or shorts and muscle shirts? So, then the question is, Where do you draw the line and who gets to draw it? That is the point. CMs are to present themselves in character with the land or setting they work in.
 

ToTBellHop

Well-Known Member
What values? I’m talking about professional standards not moral values.

I’ve been to cedar fair, universal, sea world, etc. which all have different standards. That’s fine. Disney used to brag about the Disney difference and how high of a standard they had set. That’s one of the reasons I liked Disney Parks enough to visit them multiple times a year.

If we really wanted cm’s to be comfortable we wouldn’t want any of them in character costumes... those things are the furthest thing from comfortable you can get!
Right. Professional standards change as moral values change. We don’t dress the same way at work as they did in 1850.

No clothing is comfortable in FL in the summer. Neither is being nude. Nothing is comfortable. But, there are ways to be comfortable in your own skin.
 

TP2000

Well-Known Member
As for CM's, transgender or not, they have a role to play in the park show. That is why they are called Cast Members.

I would hope that a transgender CM makes an appropriate effort to look like the role they are playing, and sometimes those roles are gender specific. Haunted Mansion chambermaids versus butlers, for example. A Colonial era lady or gentleman at Hall of Presidents, as another example.

A man should not be allowed to just roll into work with a buzzcut and tats and put on the Haunted Mansion chambermaid costume. Nor should a girl be allowed to wear the man's opera house tuxedo at the Mr. Lincoln show.

There's got to be some sort of policy that has male and female CM's portraying the appropriate gender in their gender-based roles. But I don't see that spelled out here in these new rules. I think transgender CM's should be supported and allowed to portray the gender they want to, but there's got to be some rules on how that plays out for paying customers in the parks.

If not, why are they even called Cast Members any more? Why even have costumes? Just give 'em all a unisex blue polo shirt like Six Flags and be done with it. They'd be comfortable that way, right?
 

Smooth

Well-Known Member
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Animaniac93-98

Well-Known Member
K. Good luck finding themed entertainment with your values, then.

Themed entertainment stops being that when you take away the theme part.

Whether that's Disney providing cheaply made, frumpy "costumes" for their employees to wear or a change in appearance guidelines, it all chips away at the meticulous artificial image that is key to Disney's worldbuilding. The Galaxy's Edge costumes were actually a good way to allow for more flexibility/creativity in how CMs can choose to dress without breaking theme. More of that would be better IMO.

I do, however agree that most people will not notice these changes as most CMs will likely not drastically alter how they present themselves at work.
 

TP2000

Well-Known Member
I do, however agree that most people will not notice these changes as most CMs will likely not drastically alter how they present themselves at work.

I agree. The vast, vast majority of humans are fairly comfortable in their own skin. We may not all be supermodels, but we know what kind of grooming makes us look good and what's becoming on us. That's not exclusive to employees at Disney, it's something almost all people do.

Now, in the case of a Haunted Mansion butler wearing matching gold hoop earrings and painted black fingernails, that's a situation where it absolutely does not support or theme with the show he is acting in as a Cast Member. He's not trying to be a late 1800's formal butler at a fancy mansion, he's trying to be himself just like when he goes to a party or to the mall in 2021.

Why on earth Disney has removed its ability to have its employees support the multi-billion dollar investment they've made in the parks for the last 65 years is beyond me. Some of these changes are no big deal, or are understandable.

But not asking a man to take off his gold hoop earrings before he goes on stage as part of the show of an 1800's haunted mansion seems to damage the sizable investment Disney and their Imagineers have made into park attractions and environments.
 
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TP2000

Well-Known Member
I also find it weird that people are arguing that "we don't dress the way we did in the old days anymore" when the whole schtick of many Disney experiences is having people pretend it's a historical period.

The employees at Liberty Tree Tavern wear Colonial garb because...that's the whole point.

Great point! I don't understand that either.

WDI and Disney has made huge investments for decades to make these rides and restaurants and lands look believable and immersive. Then you put a 1770's Colonial gentleman on stage in spangly earrings and blue nail polish and BOOM! you are back in the world you live in instead of a world made by Disney.

“I don't want the public to see the world they live in while they're in the Park. I want them to feel they're in another world.” -Walt Disney, 1960
 

ToTBellHop

Well-Known Member
I also find it weird that people are arguing that "we don't dress the way we did in the old days anymore" when the whole schtick of many Disney experiences is having people pretend it's a historical period.

The employees at Liberty Tree Tavern wear Colonial garb because...that's the whole point.
You think they really dressed like that in colonial times? I realize people working in themed entertainment are still modern people. No one complains about the hairstyles in Hamilton.
 

TP2000

Well-Known Member
You think they really dressed like that in colonial times? I realize people working in themed entertainment are still modern people. No one complains about the hairstyles in Hamilton.

It sounds as though you haven't been watching the past 65 years of Imagineering play out in the parks.

They spent billions and billions of dollars on these parks. They sent celebrity Imagineers on lavish expense trips to stay in the Ritz-Carlton Bali for two weeks to research the kind of tile and trim to use in the loading areas of Animal Kingdom rides. They have entire teams who obsess over period-correct wallpaper and paint colors and fabrics. Architects and engineers, costumers and painters, carpenters and curators.

The Cast Members (there's that suddenly unfortunate name again!) are a part of that multi-billion dollar show.

If it's now too much of a hassle for a male Cast Member to take off his pearl-drop earrings before he goes to work in Frontierland, why are they even bothering with all this expensive themeing and design anyway? Why even call them Cast Members? Just call them employees if that's all they are now.
 

Mr Bill

Well-Known Member
Would anyone support a CM presenting themselves naked? I suspect the answer to be, no. How about thongs, bikinis, or shorts and muscle shirts? So, then the question is, Where do you draw the line and who gets to draw it? That is the point. CMs are to present themselves in character with the land or setting they work in.
That all seems like something we can worry about when anyone is seriously proposing it instead of some weird slippery slope that goes from nail polish to nudism
 

Californian Elitist

Well-Known Member
Would anyone support a CM presenting themselves naked? I suspect the answer to be, no. How about thongs, bikinis, or shorts and muscle shirts? So, then the question is, Where do you draw the line and who gets to draw it? That is the point. CMs are to present themselves in character with the land or setting they work in.
I would support CMs wearing thongs (I can tell you many already are), bikinis, shorts, muscle shirts, speedos, and even nothing at all. I support nude CMs.
 

TrainsOfDisney

Well-Known Member
You think they really dressed like that in colonial times? I realize people working in themed entertainment are still modern people. No one complains about the hairstyles in Hamilton.
The performers in Hamilton and other broadway shows are appearing exactly as the producers want them to appear. If you’ve ever waited at a stage door for an autograph you’ll see that broadway cast members usually look very different on stage vs. offstage.
 

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