http://micechat.com/13957-new-fantasyland-what-to-expect/
He likes it ... not shocking.
He compares it to TDS. Shocking.
He likes it ... not shocking.
He compares it to TDS. Shocking.
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Kevin Yee's review of 'new' F-land ...
- Thread starter WDW1974
- Start date
This was my my response to Kevin's glowing praise:
First a correction, Phil Holmes isn’t the Prez of the MK as that position does not exist. He is the VP of the MK, a position he has held for over a decade since Erin Wallace was moved up when Karl Holz was handed the top spot in Paris.
Second, at the risk of becoming a critic of a critic (and someone I genuinely like), I am sorta shocked that anyone who has been to TDS would compare this project (perhaps, rockwork aside) with it. TDS stands as the benchmark for what Disney can create when money is no object. Also, having been to DL and WDW back-to-back over the last few weeks of September and first week of October and seen just what a spectacular job WDI did in creating BVS and CL at DCA 2.0, I find it very hard to place this relatively small scale project close to that as well.
To be fair, I’ve only experienced Storybook Circus. The walls to the rest were still up when I left waiting for the bloggers/podcasters/Disney Lifestyle whores to be let in (you do know that many of them were told exactly when to be there with the strict order that it not be placed on any sites, so they benefited while their followers did not?). SC didn’t impress me very much at all. It’s like an improved more permanent version of Mickey’s Tentland and it already has issues with safety (the absurd kids water play area with a fence around the train) and upkeep (I've already told you about the Spirited carpet patch in the Big Top tent).
I’m starting to wonder if you’ve fallen victim to the same virus that afflicts many WDW fans now after living here for almost a decade. That is, people are so starved for any new product because WDW is so stale that you overdo the praise when you actually get something new.
Look, I haven’t experienced the tiny shop that likely will soon be selling vinyl and Avengers DVDs instead of Beauty and the Beast themed china. I haven’t walked into what looks like the beautiful BoG dining hall (where they serve that great French dessert — cupcakes — with every meal!) I haven’t taken pics of the Gaston’s fountain from 876 angles or had pork shank (not that I eat it) at the Tavern that I was told is so small it’s capacity is 80 people. But the one and only (until 2014) attraction that was added was Mermaid, which I honestly believe is the weakest thing added in the DCA ExtremeMakeover. It’s plastic and has long places with no props or projections or anything as it transitions and it ends with the same lame ending the one in Anaheim does. So, it’s in a nicer building and has a nicer queue, which it will need because FP+ will likely cause the same absurd waits we see at TSMM at the Studios, while Mermaid in Anaheim is at most a 15-20 minute wait on the busiest of days and usually a walk-on.
Ultimately, people visit Disney parks for attractions and this beautification project (I think that’s the best way to describe it) is sorely lacking in that respect. Mermaid got added, but Snow White disappeared.
I just don’t get all the glowing praise for this without really talking about what it adds and what it represents.
And comparing it to Disney’s best work, be it in Anaheim or Tokyo just seems over the top.
Two decades and counting and the world’s alleged No. 1 theme park still hasn’t added a true E-Ticket and isn’t looking to. Oh, and they mangled (ruined?) CBJ in order to up the guest counts, but I’m sure you saw that when you were there too.
John Lasseter is in town, btw. You might want to chase him down and ask him about what’s coming to TPFKaTD-MGMS.
First a correction, Phil Holmes isn’t the Prez of the MK as that position does not exist. He is the VP of the MK, a position he has held for over a decade since Erin Wallace was moved up when Karl Holz was handed the top spot in Paris.
Second, at the risk of becoming a critic of a critic (and someone I genuinely like), I am sorta shocked that anyone who has been to TDS would compare this project (perhaps, rockwork aside) with it. TDS stands as the benchmark for what Disney can create when money is no object. Also, having been to DL and WDW back-to-back over the last few weeks of September and first week of October and seen just what a spectacular job WDI did in creating BVS and CL at DCA 2.0, I find it very hard to place this relatively small scale project close to that as well.
To be fair, I’ve only experienced Storybook Circus. The walls to the rest were still up when I left waiting for the bloggers/podcasters/Disney Lifestyle whores to be let in (you do know that many of them were told exactly when to be there with the strict order that it not be placed on any sites, so they benefited while their followers did not?). SC didn’t impress me very much at all. It’s like an improved more permanent version of Mickey’s Tentland and it already has issues with safety (the absurd kids water play area with a fence around the train) and upkeep (I've already told you about the Spirited carpet patch in the Big Top tent).
I’m starting to wonder if you’ve fallen victim to the same virus that afflicts many WDW fans now after living here for almost a decade. That is, people are so starved for any new product because WDW is so stale that you overdo the praise when you actually get something new.
Look, I haven’t experienced the tiny shop that likely will soon be selling vinyl and Avengers DVDs instead of Beauty and the Beast themed china. I haven’t walked into what looks like the beautiful BoG dining hall (where they serve that great French dessert — cupcakes — with every meal!) I haven’t taken pics of the Gaston’s fountain from 876 angles or had pork shank (not that I eat it) at the Tavern that I was told is so small it’s capacity is 80 people. But the one and only (until 2014) attraction that was added was Mermaid, which I honestly believe is the weakest thing added in the DCA ExtremeMakeover. It’s plastic and has long places with no props or projections or anything as it transitions and it ends with the same lame ending the one in Anaheim does. So, it’s in a nicer building and has a nicer queue, which it will need because FP+ will likely cause the same absurd waits we see at TSMM at the Studios, while Mermaid in Anaheim is at most a 15-20 minute wait on the busiest of days and usually a walk-on.
Ultimately, people visit Disney parks for attractions and this beautification project (I think that’s the best way to describe it) is sorely lacking in that respect. Mermaid got added, but Snow White disappeared.
I just don’t get all the glowing praise for this without really talking about what it adds and what it represents.
And comparing it to Disney’s best work, be it in Anaheim or Tokyo just seems over the top.
Two decades and counting and the world’s alleged No. 1 theme park still hasn’t added a true E-Ticket and isn’t looking to. Oh, and they mangled (ruined?) CBJ in order to up the guest counts, but I’m sure you saw that when you were there too.
John Lasseter is in town, btw. You might want to chase him down and ask him about what’s coming to TPFKaTD-MGMS.
You would enjoy the WDWMAGIC review
http://www.wdwmagic.com/attractions...on-the-new-fantasyland's-enchanted-forest.htm
ChrisM
Well-Known Member
Why are you going out of your way to belittle positive opinions of the "New" Fantasyland when you (1) openly admit to having not experienced it firsthand and (2) previously said you wouldn't comment on things you haven't experienced firsthand? (Don't ask me to find the quote. It exists. But there's a reason I'm not a multi-thousand poster here.)
I understand your schtick and I generally approve of your endgame, but this sort of thing makes you come across as an axe-grinding yapper. There's no reason to protest too much, dig? Let the starving enjoy their morsel.
I understand your schtick and I generally approve of your endgame, but this sort of thing makes you come across as an axe-grinding yapper. There's no reason to protest too much, dig? Let the starving enjoy their morsel.
I will check it out right now!
I am not going out of my way to belittle positive opinions. I'm commenting on what I feel is over the top praise. I have experienced the headliner attraction dozens of times since 2011 in Anaheim. It is no different here, just in a nicer show building. I have experienced all of Storybook Circus and don't think highly of it at all. Yee was bubbly in his praise for that as well. I know he's being honest, so I'm not taking a shot at him. He isn't going to be a social media because Disney will never acknowledge he exists precisely because he has attempted to be fair.
I don't need to experience it to tell it is likely the nicest themed area of the MK today. Pics do tell the tale. And I have experienced much of the land and the largest new piece (albeit elsewhere)
But none of this 'expansion' addresses the fundamental issues with MK capacity today. A problem TDO is actually making worse with things like FP+. Just wait until you visit on an uncrowded week day in January and everything has a minimum 20-40 minute wait. Those days are coming.
I love the fact that I have a schtick. Do you? Doesn't every poster here?
There was nothing unfair about my comments or criticisms in the above post. I have plenty of axes to grind in the real world, but rest assured they aren't with anyone at TDO, no matter how poor they may be running a favorite place of mind. And, FRANKLY,the axe to grind BS is something very old ... I think JT brought it up when I joined here in 2008.
harveyt0206
Well-Known Member
Thanks for the link. This very descriptive review along with those cool walk through videos really helped me visualize what is going on in this new area. While I adore a great ride (who doesn't), I also have a deep affection for detailed theming. And from what I can tell, the New Fantasyland definitely has off the charts atmosphere and theming.
I know it probably isn't "cool" to be excited about seeing this in person, but I am. And while I am not trying to be rude or disrespectful to anyone else's opinion, I would hope that we could all agree to atleast save our opinions of the new area until it is experienced first hand. After that, flame away if you still hate it. But until then, maybe it wouldn't be such a bad thing to just let others have their favorable opinion.
Nothing wrong with being excited about seeing it in person - it is the best stuff done to the MK in the last 20 years. Have a great time!
ChrisM
Well-Known Member
Actually, you are.
This isn't the first time you've "called someone out" for their praise of the area. And, in fact, you are going out of your way....you started this thread by posting an article from another site for the express purpose of showcasing your rebuttal to it. If that isn't going out of your way, then we speak different languages.
Indeed. Perhaps a bit too much, no?
Don't get me wrong, I love a good axe to grind. But there is a saturation point when the doberman starts to transform into a chihuahua. Letting some praise sneak by your pixie-dust picket line will allow your pertinent criticisms to be heard all the more clearly.
Read the MAGICal review. My first question is was it written by you, Steve? Did you experience the new area or is this from folks you rely on for pics and info in O-Town?
I actually found the review fairer and less over the top than Kevin's.
I don't disagree at all that this is the best work seen in the MK in 20 years, but while that is praise it can also be viewed as an indictment of what has gone on since. And while it may be WDI's best work at WDW, no doubt, I can't compare it to Carsland or Potter or, certainly, all of TDS because they all have a signature family attraction (or MANY attractions) while this project simply has Mermaid.
Some people love Mermaid. I find it plastic and not a huge step up from the F-land dark rides. There are many areas that lack transitions (something I noted in Anaheim) that should have props or projections or effects of some kind. So it has a beautiful show building. That's great, of course. But I want attractions that are the equal or better of their buildings and queues.
Overall, I'm sure I will like the entire project because it is new and it is largely (SC aside) well done and I'm looking forward to dining at BoG on my next visit simply to try something new (no, Tortuga Tavern and its godawful fast food doesn't count). But it still is largely window dressing. What the MK sorely lacks is capacity and attractions and this isn't really a net gain ...but at least MAGIC's review didn't try and compare it to TDS.
I actually found the review fairer and less over the top than Kevin's.
I don't disagree at all that this is the best work seen in the MK in 20 years, but while that is praise it can also be viewed as an indictment of what has gone on since. And while it may be WDI's best work at WDW, no doubt, I can't compare it to Carsland or Potter or, certainly, all of TDS because they all have a signature family attraction (or MANY attractions) while this project simply has Mermaid.
Some people love Mermaid. I find it plastic and not a huge step up from the F-land dark rides. There are many areas that lack transitions (something I noted in Anaheim) that should have props or projections or effects of some kind. So it has a beautiful show building. That's great, of course. But I want attractions that are the equal or better of their buildings and queues.
Overall, I'm sure I will like the entire project because it is new and it is largely (SC aside) well done and I'm looking forward to dining at BoG on my next visit simply to try something new (no, Tortuga Tavern and its godawful fast food doesn't count). But it still is largely window dressing. What the MK sorely lacks is capacity and attractions and this isn't really a net gain ...but at least MAGIC's review didn't try and compare it to TDS.
Maybe we are speaking different languages because, like so many, you seem more interested in discussing me and my alleged agendas than the substance of what I posted. I brought the discussion over here for two reasons: 1.) Kevin is a regular poster here, despite blogging elsewhere; and 2.) The site he blogs for is kinda dead compared to this one, which is the top place to talk about WDW on the 'net.
That's no different from bringing over a story from the O-Sentinel or LA Times or a rumour from Screamscape and taking it apart here. And that is done all the time and not simply by me. I started it because I thought it was interesting. You agree or you would have ignored it.
Except you incorrectly ascribe some hidden axe to grind that you see me having. And I have no issue with praising it. I have said since construction started that this will be the nicest area in the MK when opened and I see no reason to go back on that. I'm only critical that so much time and money and energy was spent on this and we don't even have an E-Ticket (no, that does NOT mean thrill ride) to show for it. I'm also critical of anyone who would compare it to Carsland, Potter and TDS. ... That's really it!
Lee
Adventurer
I thought the nachos were kinda good.
The food there didn't bother me. The OCD kid inside by the "fixins bar" organizing his huge binder of Sorcerers cards...he kinda bugged me. Just because.
FLE...looks quite nice. Nobody has ever said it wouldn't. The rocks and water features look very impressive.
But, I stand by my biggest criticism, which I've had since the project surfaced....the MK needs a new headliner, and Mermaid ain't it. That need should not have taken a backseat to the FLE and it's capacity improvements.
In other words, I don't/won't criticize FLE for what it is, I criticize it for what it isn't.
The Empress Lilly
Well-Known Member
'Heading into the Enchanted Forest you are immediately struck by how green and natural everything looks. The original Fantasyland doesn't really contain any trees, '
But that is not correct. The orginal Fantasyland had a huge amount of trees. From futuristic near TL, to exotic near 20k to Bavarian near PP. FL was one of the greenest areas of any Disney park area, complete with jungles, alpine forests, streams, endless waterfalls, vast rockwork, planters. It has been through neglect and poor design choices that FL was turned into a barren wasteland. As in so many other respects, the FLE isn't so much an 'expansion' as a reclamation, as in this case with trees and greenery:
Okay. GG agrees with you, so I guess I'll just call it mediocre. Maybe the mess had something to do with it?
The food there didn't bother me. The OCD kid inside by the "fixins bar" organizing his huge binder of Sorcerers cards...he kinda bugged me. Just because.
Yep. That was not a sight I needed to see, but he would fit in my tome on Mental Health and the Disney Fan Community, no doubt.
Perfectly put, No. 2
.
I think the new area looks wonderful and certainly improves the MK significantly from a visual standpoint. But I wish it had more well, substance to it!
'Heading into the Enchanted Forest you are immediately struck by how green and natural everything looks. The original Fantasyland doesn't really contain any trees, '
But that is not correct. The orginal Fantasyland had a huge amount of trees. From futuristic near TL, to exotic near 20k to Bavarian near PP. FL was one of the greenest areas of any Disney park area, complete with jungles, alpine forests, streams, endless waterfalls, vast rockwork, planters. It has been through neglect and poor design choices that FL was turned into a barren wasteland. As in so many other respects, the FLE isn't so much an 'expansion' as a reclamation, as is the case with trees and greenery:
Great point (and pics) ... much of the greenery was removed to make way for all the 400-pounders in their ECVs and pushing double-wide strollers.
Take a look at old videos (even 15 years ago) and you don't see nearly the amount of either, which always starts a war on the boards, but it is true and anyone who actually visited WDW in the 70s, 80s or 90s can tell you it wasn't always overrun by these people.
It's the same reason stores now have vast empty areas where merchandise used to be, so some fatty or lazy Mommy can sail thru the shop (damaging displays and merchandise along the way) without getting up or getting their brats up and WALKING!
DarthDisney
Member
I tend to agree with wdw and lee, even though not really a poster on this site, I read a lot and just joined recently so I could post. I love WDW , I go 4 times a year , and my young children love it . But FLE is kinda BS, it looks great and my little girl will love it , but it just seems like a lot of fluff and no substance. When was the last time WDW got a ride where you went "WOW", its been a long time. I just would like to be able to brag on NEW stuff from time to time , something that would not make me wonder if my 1800 dollar AP bill is worth it anymore.
The Empress Lilly
Well-Known Member
Well, since this thread turned a bit sour anyway, we might as well...
There were no (very few) morbidly obese people in the 70s and 80s. There were no SUV-strollers. Kids over the age of four could walk. The same is true for Tokyo and Paris to this day.
So there is nothing inevitable about all of that. It is an aberration, a sign of a society gone wrong.
I lived through the 70s and 80s, and I am blessed with a good memory.
I also remember that Fantasyland already had an undersea ride + a Snow White ride + a stream with bridges + forests. And a Skyway too.
The Empress Lilly
Well-Known Member
But...does the MK need a new E-ticket?I thought the nachos were kinda good.
The food there didn't bother me. The OCD kid inside by the "fixins bar" organizing his huge binder of Sorcerers cards...he kinda bugged me. Just because.
FLE...looks quite nice. Nobody has ever said it wouldn't. The rocks and water features look very impressive.
But, I stand by my biggest criticism, which I've had since the project surfaced....the MK needs a new headliner, and Mermaid ain't it. That need should not have taken a backseat to the FLE and it's capacity improvements.
In other words, I don't/won't criticize FLE for what it is, I criticize it for what it isn't.
At 17/18 million and counting, the MK's infrastructure is at breaking point. The place was designed for ten million. The effects are clear all around: at fireworks, at parades, at the stampede for the monorail after closing, the lines to buy food.
WDW does not need to draw even more people to the MK, it needs to adjust the MK to cope with the masses. Such as by building a classic darkride with a high capacity omnimover. This is the true genius of Mermaid - it is not a Haunted Mansion, but a SWSA or Toad with the capacity of a Mansion. The rest of the FLE also serves to adress capacity issues: walkways in FL, restaurant offerings, and added m&g capacity.
A new E-ticket would only exacerbate the MK's capacity issues. They are better build in one of the other three parks.