Is Disney Losing DVC Members/Contracts due to Covid??

Goofnut1980

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
I have a general question. Has anyone heard with Covid and so many people without incomes, is Disney losing DVC Members? Are people turning their contract back over to Disney? It seems crazy they canceled the new DVC they started to build over River Country. There has to be a reason that most of us are not aware of. The new resort wouldnt be finished for a few years. Plenty of time for the economy to somewhat bounce back.
 

nickys

Premium Member
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I have a general question. Has anyone heard with Covid and so many people without incomes, is Disney losing DVC Members? Are people turning their contract back over to Disney? It seems crazy they canceled the new DVC they started to build over River Country. There has to be a reason that most of us are not aware of. The new resort wouldnt be finished for a few years. Plenty of time for the economy to somewhat bounce back.
I think the reason it was cancelled is the lack of cash flow they have right now.

A lot of projects were put on hold. Don’t forget this was a shared resort, half Disney, half DVC. Disney can easily forgo another resort at this point. Riviera is still only around 30% declared I think. They can have a rethink in a year or two, maybe go for a wholly DVC resort if Riviera sales progress.
 

aliceismad

Well-Known Member
Wasn't half of POP construction started and then abandoned after 9/11 and then eventually became AOA? I know DVC is a slightly different economic model, but with Riviera still needing to be sold, stopping work on Reflections seems kind of like a no-brainer.
 

nickys

Premium Member
Wasn't half of POP construction started and then abandoned after 9/11 and then eventually became AOA? I know DVC is a slightly different economic model, but with Riviera still needing to be sold, stopping work on Reflections seems kind of like a no-brainer.
The usual pattern has been to have a new DVC resort to sell every 2-3 years. Reflections was to have been ready for 2022. Or think it was the Disney aspect that caused it to be cancelled, although perhaps a general pause in case of a recession was considered wise.
 

helenabear

Well-Known Member
You cannot just turn your contract back over to Disney, they would have to foreclose. Sales were closed for months for DVC and more importantly Disney lost a ton of money the last few months. The loss of income for Disney caused the mothballing at best. This was not all DVC. They cannot spend extra right now. Even SE refurb was mothballed. Dinsey is selling RR at a good discount. Until they get enough money back in, huge expenses are cut
 

Sirwalterraleigh

Premium Member
Too early to tell...

I would expect new contract sales will slow for awhile (2 reasons)...and perhaps some bookings will be slightly lower for the near to immediate future.

...but not much. Dvc is oversold for a reason...they don’t make a cent off empty beds. That’s also why they can’t handle the current disruptions.

If I had to guess...the spike in cases right now in the US makes some of their problems easier to deal with...in a weird way.
 

helenabear

Well-Known Member
Too early to tell...

I would expect new contract sales will slow for awhile (2 reasons)...and perhaps some bookings will be slightly lower for the near to immediate future.

...but not much. Dvc is oversold for a reason...they don’t make a cent off empty beds. That’s also why they can’t handle the current disruptions.

If I had to guess...the spike in cases right now in the US makes some of their problems easier to deal with...in a weird way.
DVC cannot be oversold. Period.
 

Phonedave

Well-Known Member
Right

“The sales formula leads to sometimes uncomfortable levels of saturation at locations and times”

I forgot to take my “literal pills” this morning 👍🏻


DVC can not be sold to more than 100% capacity - breakage requirements. Technical DVC cannot be sold to less than that amount either. By rule, DVC is always at 100% capacity minus the required holdback.

IF there are 500,000 total points sold at a resort, then 500,000 total points (plus breakage holdback) are available for owners to book - no more, no less.
 

Phonedave

Well-Known Member
I have a general question. Has anyone heard with Covid and so many people without incomes, is Disney losing DVC Members? Are people turning their contract back over to Disney? It seems crazy they canceled the new DVC they started to build over River Country. There has to be a reason that most of us are not aware of. The new resort wouldnt be finished for a few years. Plenty of time for the economy to somewhat bounce back.


As was said, you cannot just "return your contact" to Disney. That is how every timeshare I know of works. Once you buy your contact, it's yours and you can't just walk away from it. There is a whole legal business around helping people get out of their timeshare contracts because they are stuck with them, and nobody wants to buy them.

DVC at least has a robust resale market (for now) and it still has customers that want to buy direct at sold out resorts. Because of this, you can still sell an unwanted contract on the open market, and if it is priced low enough DVC will exercise their right of first refusal and buy it to resell direct.

However, if people stop wanting to buy sold out resorts direct (or DVC stops selling them entirely) and the resale market tanks, then people who want to unload their contracts will be stuck with them.
 

TheGuyThatMakesSwords

Well-Known Member
As was said, you cannot just "return your contact" to Disney. That is how every timeshare I know of works. Once you buy your contact, it's yours and you can't just walk away from it. There is a whole legal business around helping people get out of their timeshare contracts because they are stuck with them, and nobody wants to buy them.

DVC at least has a robust resale market (for now) and it still has customers that want to buy direct at sold out resorts. Because of this, you can still sell an unwanted contract on the open market, and if it is priced low enough DVC will exercise their right of first refusal and buy it to resell direct.

However, if people stop wanting to buy sold out resorts direct (or DVC stops selling them entirely) and the resale market tanks, then people who want to unload their contracts will be stuck with them.
Hence, our nuclear plan.... if it get's bad? Offer all of our points, for $1.00. Bear with me on this one....

At this point, we've recovered every CENT of our initial investment, dues, etc. vs the best discounted nonDVC rental rates, every year since 2012. And all this time - we would have gone anyway :). So in a funny way? Our DVC contracts are worthless :).

OK - not REALLY worthless - they hold value for future trips. IF there are any. We actually LIKE ROFR - because, yes, one can ditch DVC by listing contracts for $1.00, assuming one has hit total break-even, and total pay-back.

No one said we would "make" money.... but ditch DVC? Just a guess.... Disney would HAVE to exercise ROFR to prop up the system - at least freeing the victim from dues. If we ever have to? We will use the system to destroy the system :).
 

the.dreamfinder

Well-Known Member
Wasn't half of POP construction started and then abandoned after 9/11 and then eventually became AOA? I know DVC is a slightly different economic model, but with Riviera still needing to be sold, stopping work on Reflections seems kind of like a no-brainer.
The lobby/food court complex and three room blocs (Little Mermaid) were completed before The Legendary Years half of Pop was mothballed. Reflections only did some land clearing, retention ponds and utility work.
 
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helenabear

Well-Known Member
DVC can not be sold to more than 100% capacity - breakage requirements. Technical DVC cannot be sold to less than that amount either. By rule, DVC is always at 100% capacity minus the required holdback.

IF there are 500,000 total points sold at a resort, then 500,000 total points (plus breakage holdback) are available for owners to book - no more, no less.
Right

“The sales formula leads to sometimes uncomfortable levels of saturation at locations and times”

I forgot to take my “literal pills” this morning 👍🏻
Read above. It's not about taking sarcastic, errrr literal pills. Owned since 2004 with no issues using. It's not overselling, it's people buying in for studios only and fighting. Not the same as overselling.
 

Sirwalterraleigh

Premium Member
Read above. It's not about taking sarcastic, errrr literal pills. Owned since 2004 with no issues using. It's not overselling, it's people buying in for studios only and fighting. Not the same as overselling.
Unless i’m mistaken...and it’s since 2005 - with work experience since 1999...that the whole sales pitch was that it WAS NOT a traditional timeshare...no set weeks, times booking windows?

And that hell for 20 years...but then it twisted.

To each their own. Enjoy that time on the pedestal.
It’s a lesson learned for me.
 

nickys

Premium Member
Read above. It's not about taking sarcastic, errrr literal pills. Owned since 2004 with no issues using. It's not overselling, it's people buying in for studios only and fighting. Not the same as overselling.
I agree but also kinds see the point made.

With the Poly and Copper Creek, points were sold “for” the bungalows and cabins, which the majority of owners buying at those resorts can’t really use.

The situation is worse at CCV because of the relatively low number of studios there. That, coupled with a lower minimum buy-in generally and a market flooded with 25 point add-ons, means that there is a problem booking for studios at CCV even at 11 months. And a general availability issue for a lot of members all looking for studios because that’s all they can get with the points they own.

So whilst technically not oversold, I can see why some consider it as such.

When you have new members proudly announcing they just bought a 25 point contract at the Poly because it had been a long held dream of theirs, I do cross my fingers they‘ll not regret it later. Heck I wish we had more points now that the family have unanimously decided we love WDW at Christmas and being tied to school holidays.
 

helenabear

Well-Known Member
I agree but also kinds see the point made.

With the Poly and Copper Creek, points were sold “for” the bungalows and cabins, which the majority of owners buying at those resorts can’t really use.

The situation is worse at CCV because of the relatively low number of studios there. That, coupled with a lower minimum buy-in generally and a market flooded with 25 point add-ons, means that there is a problem booking for studios at CCV even at 11 months. And a general availability issue for a lot of members all looking for studios because that’s all they can get with the points they own.

So whilst technically not oversold, I can see why some consider it as such.

When you have new members proudly announcing they just bought a 25 point contract at the Poly because it had been a long held dream of theirs, I do cross my fingers they‘ll not regret it later. Heck I wish we had more points now that the family have unanimously decided we love WDW at Christmas and being tied to school holidays.
I did already state the fighting for the studios only in my reply you quoted. So not sure why you think I don't understand. The studio fights are an issue. Overselling is not.

From MO you should also know I am beyond over the bungalows being used negatively. If as an owner I had issues booking a studio, let alone 2 there, I'd agree that for PVB it created an issue. They are commonly found a few months out. I use my PVB points for both stays. As an interesting FYI, my guide stated at opening they were not allowing under 50 point contracts to be sold even in resale. So it is harder to find a 25 point contract. I did poor math at PVB and shortly before selling out I got 30 points. It would take resale only to find that.

Disney did screw up by limiting new direct purchases to 50. I even think some resorts that's too low to gave at 100.

The disallowing to borrow more than 50% of a contract will really bite some in the immediate future I think. Though with many not wanting to or able to travel it could be an interesting few years.

The idea of what DVC was has shifted. In order to sell during a recession, Dinsey did mess up lowering requirements and adding 5 to a studio. That created the unbalance. If they had left studios to 4 and did 1 bedrooms 5 and never lowered direct buy ins to 50 for new, I doubt we'd see the issues we have.

They did try to balance with massive amounts of studios at PVB but that caused issues too. Until people are willing to do more non-studios and buying in with only the intention of studios, we'll remain with fights for them.

For those of us who prefer 1 bedrooms and up (for us we only do studios at PVB and do 2 connecting) there isn't much of an issue.
 

nickys

Premium Member
I did already state the fighting for the studios only in my reply you quoted. So not sure why you think I don't understand. The studio fights are an issue. Overselling is not.

From MO you should also know I am beyond over the bungalows being used negatively. If as an owner I had issues booking a studio, let alone 2 there, I'd agree that for PVB it created an issue. They are commonly found a few months out. I use my PVB points for both stays. As an interesting FYI, my guide stated at opening they were not allowing under 50 point contracts to be sold even in resale. So it is harder to find a 25 point contract. I did poor math at PVB and shortly before selling out I got 30 points. It would take resale only to find that.

Disney did screw up by limiting new direct purchases to 50. I even think some resorts that's too low to gave at 100.

The disallowing to borrow more than 50% of a contract will really bite some in the immediate future I think. Though with many not wanting to or able to travel it could be an interesting few years.

The idea of what DVC was has shifted. In order to sell during a recession, Dinsey did mess up lowering requirements and adding 5 to a studio. That created the unbalance. If they had left studios to 4 and did 1 bedrooms 5 and never lowered direct buy ins to 50 for new, I doubt we'd see the issues we have.

They did try to balance with massive amounts of studios at PVB but that caused issues too. Until people are willing to do more non-studios and buying in with only the intention of studios, we'll remain with fights for them.

For those of us who prefer 1 bedrooms and up (for us we only do studios at PVB and do 2 connecting) there isn't much of an issue.
Sorry, I didn’t mean to imply you didn’t understand.

I was just trying to explain why I think some people might consider it as “oversold” when it’s actually a combination of factors that leads to the availability issue. Legally it can’t be oversold.

Not sure about Disney not allowing 25 points to be sold. They sell 25 point add-ons to existing members at many resorts, hence the 24 OTU points limit. Need more than 24 extra points? Here’s an add-on for you. People then sell them. Unless your guide meant they try to take all of them back in ROFR, but they clearly don’t do so. Or did he mean when Poly first opened? But then at some point they obviously did allow existing owners to add on 25 point contracts there.
 

helenabear

Well-Known Member
Sorry, I didn’t mean to imply you didn’t understand.

I was just trying to explain why I think some people might consider it as “oversold” when it’s actually a combination of factors that leads to the availability issue. Legally it can’t be oversold.

Not sure about Disney not allowing 25 points to be sold. They sell 25 point add-ons to existing members at many resorts, hence the 24 OTU points limit. Need more than 24 extra points? Here’s an add-on for you. People then sell them. Unless your guide meant they try to take all of them back in ROFR, but they clearly don’t do so. Or did he mean when Poly first opened? But then at some point they obviously did allow existing owners to add on 25 point contracts there.
Sorry I misunderstood or misread you then. No harm?

The no 25 points was very true when I bought the add on for PVB. I wasn't going to buy only 25, but I asked and was told flat out no for resale. It wasn't true for all resorts all the time. They just often would limit new resorts when they first came out per reports. For PVB it was removed by the time I added my last 30.

For a while they also claimed not to finance to under 50. Not sure if that was a rule or a pirate guideline. Could be the 50 new resort deal I was told was a pirate guideline too for all I know.
 

Phonedave

Well-Known Member
Hence, our nuclear plan.... if it get's bad? Offer all of our points, for $1.00. Bear with me on this one....

At this point, we've recovered every CENT of our initial investment, dues, etc. vs the best discounted nonDVC rental rates, every year since 2012. And all this time - we would have gone anyway :). So in a funny way? Our DVC contracts are worthless :).

OK - not REALLY worthless - they hold value for future trips. IF there are any. We actually LIKE ROFR - because, yes, one can ditch DVC by listing contracts for $1.00, assuming one has hit total break-even, and total pay-back.

No one said we would "make" money.... but ditch DVC? Just a guess.... Disney would HAVE to exercise ROFR to prop up the system - at least freeing the victim from dues. If we ever have to? We will use the system to destroy the system :).

But that is not guaranteed. Let's say the economy is so bad that when you put your $1 contract on the market, nobody wants it. DVC is not going to come along and buy it either.

But, you say, SOMEBODY will want a contract for $1. Maybe, maybe not. Hopefully that time never comes, but there are other timeshares out there are are being offered for $1, and they are sitting on the market.
 
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