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News IllumiNations: Reflections of Earth confirmed to be replaced in 2019

eliza61nyc

Well-Known Member
Disney didn't become what it is today by just giving people what they want. The company was built on providing new and innovative forms of entertainment that no one else was doing.

Epcot was really a great example of how doing something different from your standard theme park could still be fun and appealing. It probably broadened their fan base.

The great thing about WDW is that each park really feels like it's own experience, and that is slowly being chipped away. I don't hate characters or thrill rides, but I don't want an Epcot that is just an extension of Tomorrowland and Fantasyland.
But here's the thing Wendy, what worked in 1971 may not and often times does not work today. Now I grew up in my family's restaurant, so yeah we gave the customer what they wanted even if we thought it was tasteless water down junk because well, that's what puts money in the coffers.

I doubt putting characters in Epcot somehow turns it into Mk but the reality is, little girls want to see Frozen character and they want to see them in EVERY park.

Now what is going to be interesting is if the show has any iota of ip or character voices, faces or anything it, it will get panned here. so pretty much it's a zero sum game.
 
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tirian

Well-Known Member
I disagree with that last sentence. I don't think people here are generally complaining about the execution. I think a significant percentage of the posters here feel that it is somehow an affront to Epcot to introduce any IP into the park at all, regardless of how it is executed. And I just strongly disagree with that.

(As an aside, I hate the use of the term "IP" in this context. Everything Disney does is intellectual property. It is not somehow holier because it was originally designed by an imagineer working for Disney than an animator working for Pixar.)
Do people truly over-simplify it that much?

Pirates, Mansion, CBJ, and Space are IPs created by men who began as animators and switched to WDI. The same men who gave us Tinkerbell and Cinderella created something new for Disneyland. POTC could have included Captain Hook, but it didn’t.

Nothing is wrong with IP when it’s appropriate. So far, Disney’s IP inclusions at Epcot have forced “Fantasyland Lite” rather than being appropriate. Maybe one day it will be done correctly. So far, Nemo and Caballeros come close but are animated scavenger hunts for a character.
 

tirian

Well-Known Member
But here's the thing Wendy, what worked in 1971 may not and often times does not work today. Now I grew up in my family's restaurant, so yeah we gave the customer what they wanted even if we thought it was tasteless water down junk because well, that's what puts money in the coffers.

I doubt putting characters in Epcot somehow turns it into Mk but the reality is, little girls want to see Frozen character and they want to see them in EVERY park.
Since little girls are the only people visiting Epcot, that’s a sound argument.
 

Wendy Pleakley

Well-Known Member
But here's the thing Wendy, what worked in 1971 may not and often times does not work today. Now I grew up in my family's restaurant, so yeah we gave the customer what they wanted even if we thought it was tasteless water down junk because well, that's what puts money in the coffers.

I doubt putting characters in Epcot somehow turns it into Mk but the reality is, little girls want to see Frozen character and they want to see them in EVERY park.
Characters alone won't turn Epcot into the MK but look at the attractions. Frozen would be at home in Fantasyland, yet it's in World Showcase. Guardians would be at home in Tomorrowland, yet it's in Future World. Test Track was improved, but at the same time has lost what little Edutainment factor it once had. 'Soarin at least fits in Epcot, even if it should have been in World Showcase.

Epcot is inching closer and closer to being the MK Part 2.

People may want Frozen everywhere or junk food, but that's because they don't know better. I'm not an imagineer, but I want those super creative people to come up with ways of entertaining me that I could never imagine.

Nobody "wanted" a full length animated movie, yet Walt made Snow White. People love animated movies to this day, go figure.
 

eliza61nyc

Well-Known Member
Since little girls are the only people visiting Epcot, that’s a sound argument.
And that's called Hyperbole. Yes I recognize that little girls are not the only ones visiting Epcot. thanks, I wouldn't have figured it out.

ok since the art of taking a sentence and the extracting it to the circumstances seems to be a lost art, isn't that still on the sat? lets break it down.

Children of all ages, shapes, sizes, ethnicity, sex and demographics like to see the characters every where and since most parents want to keep the little minions happy, it isn't surprising that Disney makes an effort to give the public what they seem to want.

:rolleyes:
 

eliza61nyc

Well-Known Member
Characters alone won't turn Epcot into the MK but look at the attractions. Frozen would be at home in Fantasyland, yet it's in World Showcase. Guardians would be at home in Tomorrowland, yet it's in Future World. Test Track was improved, but at the same time has lost what little Edutainment factor it once had. 'Soarin at least fits in Epcot, even if it should have been in World Showcase.

Epcot is inching closer and closer to being the MK Part 2.

People may want Frozen everywhere or junk food, but that's because they don't know better. I'm not an imagineer, but I want those super creative people to come up with ways of entertaining me that I could never imagine.

Nobody "wanted" a full length animated movie, yet Walt made Snow White. People love animated movies to this day, go figure.
Absolutely? Does anyone ever wonder why frozen is in World showcase? That's an honest question, I don't know. I figure very simply Frozen was a runaway hit and the mouseworld is capitalizing off of it.

Maybe folks today don't want to be edutained? Why is Disney going full steam on IP stuff? It can't be just to annoy folks here.
 

MisterPenguin

Rumormonger
Premium Member
I like HEA. When I see it, I enjoy it and I'm not making a mental note of all the ways it can be improved.

I like RoE. However, when I see it, I make a lengthy mental list of all the ways it could be improved:
  • the pan flute rendition of Popcorn before the show is an insult to music, there are literally tens of thousands of better choices of music
  • all stuff in the way of viewing, from trees to lakeside buildings (which I know a new show won't take care of)
  • all the show elements at the level of the lake surface which becomes impossible to see if you have people in front of you
  • the globe that is too small for the show and the attempt to show a video on only 25% of the globe (which is the percent of land mass on Earth)
  • the big pause, because if you can't see the globe, then there is nothing visual happening

RoE needed *huge* upgrades or a new show, so, I'm glad there'll be a new show.

I don't mind the IP if done right, namely, nicely re-orchestrated for the show rather than audio clips of the movies, and none of that mushy old-time choir sound (looking at you American Adventure), but a more gospel-y or Broadway sound.
 
And that's called Hyperbole. Yes I recognize that little girls are not the only ones visiting Epcot. thanks, I wouldn't have figured it out.

ok since the art of taking a sentence and the extracting it to the circumstances seems to be a lost art, isn't that still on the sat? lets break it down.

Children of all ages, shapes, sizes, ethnicity, sex and demographics like to see the characters every where and since most parents want to keep the little minions happy, it isn't surprising that Disney makes an effort to give the public what they seem to want.

:rolleyes:
Minions are up the road at Universal :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:





































;)
 
But here's the thing Wendy, what worked in 1971 may not and often times does not work today. Now I grew up in my family's restaurant, so yeah we gave the customer what they wanted even if we thought it was tasteless water down junk because well, that's what puts money in the coffers.

I doubt putting characters in Epcot somehow turns it into Mk but the reality is, little girls want to see Frozen character and they want to see them in EVERY park.

Now what is going to be interesting is if the show has any iota of ip or character voices, faces or anything it, it will get panned here. so pretty much it's a zero sum game.
If I didn’t know you better...I’d say that you think Kardashian “entertainment” makes sense to you for Disney parks?
 

eliza61nyc

Well-Known Member
If I didn’t know you better...I’d say that you think Kardashian “entertainment” makes sense to you for Disney parks?
Don't say that out loud, mama Kardashian will make a way to do that.
actually I'm not advocating for any thing but I also understand the concept of giving the crowd what they want.
And I can't get mad at the Kardashian, without a spec of talent they are selling their products to millions of consumers.
Now you folks can talk about artistic yada yada yada and "imagineering" until the cows come home but the Kardashians have found a way into the fabric of this country. lol I admire that.
 
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JIMINYCR

Well-Known Member
Just FYI, not sure if it's been mentioned yet..... I've been told the torches around WSL will be removed, drastically modified, or reduced during this change. I really hope that doesn't happen.
That will be very disappointing. Ive enjoyed the look and the ambiance those torches add to the area. The blowing out the torch flames was a nice touch to start the show. Illuminations has had a great run and brought us wonderful memories to our EP trips. Lets hope the replacement will be much grander in sounds, sights and thrills.
 

Wendy Pleakley

Well-Known Member
Absolutely? Does anyone ever wonder why frozen is in World showcase? That's an honest question, I don't know. I figure very simply Frozen was a runaway hit and the mouseworld is capitalizing off of it.

Maybe folks today don't want to be edutained? Why is Disney going full steam on IP stuff? It can't be just to annoy folks here.
It's like you said, it's easy and profitable (but also lazy) to spoon feed the people what they want right at this moment.

Long term, I'm not convinced it's the best approach. Great entertainment companies develop original concepts, weak ones regurgitate what is working at the moment.

Do people not like edutainment? I don't buy that. I don't hear a lot of people complaining that "Living with the Land" or "Spaceship Earth" aren't enjoyable attractions.

If characters and thrills are what the people want, why is Epcot so dependent on food festivals to get bodies in the park?

As audiences, we need to be more open to different things, and public reaction is absolutely to blame to some degree. Look at Disney's movie output: Marvel, Star Wars, Pixar, and live-action remakes.

It feels like they are very reluctant to deviate from what works, and who can blame them? When an original film (i.e. Wrinkle in Time) doesn't do well, but Marvel and Star Wars are hugely profitable, what else would they do?

As for Frozen in Epcot, I think it was simply that they wanted to build something quickly. It's cheaper and quicker to use an existing facility, and Frozen doesn't feel completely out of place in Norway.
 
actually I'm not advocating for any thing but I also understand the concept of giving the crowd what they want.
And I can't get mad at the Kardashian, without a spec of talent they are selling their products to millions of consumers.
Now you folks can talk about artistic yada yada yada and "imagineering" until the cows come home but the Kardashians have found a way into the fabric of this country. lol I admire that.
The problem is that if Disney sinks to that level of “lack or quality”...they’ll never survive.

All the mouse ear wearing dust huffers here laugh, patronize, and sleep on the pillow of a false believe that their brand is “indestructible”...

But indestructable brands fail...and they have done so kinda shockingly in the fallout from the 20th century...

It’s not that kids won’t like Mickey anymore...it’s that societies and cultures tend to move on - often without notice.

Walt Disney believed a foundation of top notch quality was his “insurance” policy....and unlike many of the walt references you see based on false nostalgia...that one still applies. More than ever.

Crap is crap...quality is quality. Don’t dabble in both.
 

TwilightZone

Well-Known Member
And that's called Hyperbole. Yes I recognize that little girls are not the only ones visiting Epcot. thanks, I wouldn't have figured it out.

ok since the art of taking a sentence and the extracting it to the circumstances seems to be a lost art, isn't that still on the sat? lets break it down.

Children of all ages, shapes, sizes, ethnicity, sex and demographics like to see the characters every where and since most parents want to keep the little minions happy, it isn't surprising that Disney makes an effort to give the public what they seem to want.

:rolleyes:
A true statement, but I will add this to the IP discussion.
I think it says a lot that my favorite ride as a kid was soarin'. Not peter pan, not winnie the pooh, not buzz lightyear. Soarin' over california the most non IP ride ever made.
Now, just a hunch, but this could be the same for a bunch of other kids too, even if the ride isn't soarin' it could be pirates or haunted mansion.
 

mikejs78

Premium Member
Man I hope it's not movie music. That will be so dumb.
They tried that once before. It didn't go over well.
That’s a “tad” different than 15 minutes of projection Disney sing along.
Oh I agree, I'm just saying that IP in an Epcot nighttime spectacular isn't unprecedented. I'd prefer something more along the lines of RoE 2.0 myself, but there's a huge continuum between no IP and an HEA-clone Disney sing-along. It depends if the characters are a supporting role or the main event. If the show is about the characters, it will be a failure in my book. If the Characters are used to tell a story that is a uniquely Epcot story (with Epcot-like music, not Disney Movie's greatest hits), it could still be a very well-done show. Given that IP is likely a given at this point, I'm hoping for the latter, but expecting the former.
 
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