HKDL gets new castle, frozen land and marvel land.

Timothy_Q

Well-Known Member
Regardless of people's opinions on the new castle design, HKD was never meant to get a clone of Disneyland's castle.
That only happened because of the enourmous budget cuts to every Disney park being built in the late 90's and early 2000's.

The Disneyland clone was never intentionally chosen for its design, it was purely because it was easier and cheaper.

So losing it doesn't really go against HKD's "master plan".
The opposite actually, the park is finally getting an original castle like it was originally intended to
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
I actually thought the castle looked fine when you were up close. My issue is the assertion that it looks too big in relation to Main Street, that's what I've always had a problem with. It looks ok in isolation. It was comically dwarfed looking down the barrel of Main Street.

Main street sells the illusion of four stories. SBC is supposed to sell the illusion of 15 or so if it was recreating Neuschwanstein.


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Sleeping Beauty Castle is inspired by, and definitely takes elements from, but is not supposed to be Neuschwanstein. It’s the exact same relationship as the originals. If Sleeping Beauty Castle is comical dwarfed by Main Street then it has been for 60 years.

Regardless of people's opinions on the new castle design, HKD was never meant to get a clone of Disneyland's castle.
That only happened because of the enourmous budget cuts to every Disney park being built in the late 90's and early 2000's.

The Disneyland clone was never intentionally chosen for its design, it was purely because it was easier and cheaper.

So losing it doesn't really go against HKD's "master plan".
The opposite actually, the park is finally getting an original castle like it was originally intended to
Who is saying this is against any sort of original desire or master plan? How is that really relevant? Nothing about building a unique castle requires mashing all of the princesses together, or being so tall and slender or cantilevers.
 

Timothy_Q

Well-Known Member
Who is saying this is against any sort of original desire or master plan? How is that really relevant? Nothing about building a unique castle requires mashing all of the princesses together, or being so tall and slender or cantilevers.
Making a general statement about the HKD Castle in the HKD Castle thread is irrelevant? lol ok

I wasn't replying to you, take it easy
 

DDLand

Well-Known Member
It's definitely weird. It has some design cues harkening to Cinderella's Castle. But it also has some other stuff thrown in. Weird.

It's definitely not a castle though. Castles are inhabitable and useful spaces. This is not an inhabitable or useful building. It's really skinny and designed purely for show. If Cinderella's Castle is the White House, The Castle of Magical Dreams or whatever they call it is the Washington Monument. There isn't even a pretense of it actually being a real castle. There is little to no space to actually inhabit in the building. It's comically skinny. Like if you built a house but forgot the living space and smashed the front and back together. It's a monument, but not a castle:
Screen Shot 2019-09-14 at 8.59.08 PM.png

Thanks @Disneysea05 for the link! And image credit goes to:

Which might be just fine for Hong Kong Disneyland. People seem to be fine with a castle, which will primarily serve a purpose as a monumental structure, looking like a monumental structure. It ironically does not solve the issue of forced perspective. With odd scaling on the structure itself, it looks freakishly unrealistic. But perhaps it never was about forced perspective as it was about size. Unscientific anecdote time. I visited Hong Kong Disneyland with a friend of mine, and I told him about the castle's impending doom. He had loved Hong Kong Disneyland generally, but he said it was a good thing they were making the castle bigger.

I still have a healthy dose of skepticism that this will work from a scaling and aesthetics standpoint. Apparently size was a problem for some people. But like so many things at Hong Kong Disneyland, they attempt to fix a perceived problem and then end up creating a new one. This gaudy structure will age with the grace of freshly mashed guacamole. Once the newness factor fades its flaws will become ever more apparent. Outside of the castle itself, it will have widespread ramifications throughout all of Hong Kong Disneyland. I'll have to see it in person, but like it or not, the park was designed with a Sleeping Beauty's Castle at its heart. This is fundamental and at the core of the park.

But I also see this as the perfect symbol for everything that is wrong with Hong Kong Disneyland. This is a reactive move to its sister park in Shanghai getting something. It's unrealistic and honestly kind of ugly. Instead of starting fresh with original design, the structure rises from the back of the classic Sleeping Beauty's Castle like an unreal joke. It's as if the Empire State Building got jealous of the Burj Khalifa and they built a new modern tower on top of the classic to keep up. It's cartoonish in what had been one of their more grounded and lifelike areas. It also screams cheap.

Everything done since 2005 have been near misses. With some of the greatest attractions in Disney Parks, the delivery has been lackluster. Unlike Disneyland which has wonderful architectural experiences, the only truly fabulous non natural setting and placemaking at Hong Kong Disneyland is on Main Street USA. It is by far the nicest land at that park. The other lands lack depth or immersive qualities.

Again and again Disney has been satisfied with taking the cheap way out. And this castle isn't enough. Two D Ticket family rides behind Fantasyland is not enough. Throwing an Avengers ride into "Avengers Campus" (opening in 4 years) isn't enough. The placemaking and setting at this park are the worst of a castle park. It needs a consistent vision* for what it's supposed to be and big budget to match. Instead Disney is contented with their 600 Million contribution. That may sound like a lot, but consider this. Depreciating over 40 years, that entire contribution will cost them 15 Million a year. A rounding error.

At best, Disney is likely hoping that performance will improve slightly, and that it will be a one off regional park attracting a nice flow of locals. It will neither be a longterm drag on the company or government, and both parties can quietly try to pretend that Lantau's jobs program doesn't exist.

*Does the WDI that created Tokyo Disney Sea still exist? It seems like WDI is allergic to compelling architecture. In 2001 they made these masterful and amazing spaces that were primarily buildings. While a circle of volcanic rock gets much of the love around here (it is a very cool circle of volcanic rock) Tokyo Disney Sea takes you to Italy, New York, and to Latin America. The Fortress Explorations is incredibly realistic in its own right. I was dumbfounded how on point they made that little Spanish fort. Now we seem to get a series of cartoonish buildings coming out of WDI. I'm honestly trying to think of something they've built in the last 20 years that is architecturally stunning. The Africa expansion at DAK is about it, and that's literally a group of buildings decaying. I also have to give credit to the Himalayan town which is pretty effective too. But Shanghai Disneyland, Galaxy's Edge, New Fantasyland, and Cars Land all have this odd cartoonish vibe to them that Tokyo Disney Sea, World Showcase, or Disneyland don't have. This castle is only the latest in a series of misfires.

Edit: It is a little sad to see Walt's Notre Dame spire rising, knowing that the original is lost. That's one tradition that ought to stick!
 
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halbjobri

Active Member
It is by far the nicest land at that park. The other lands lack depth or immersive qualities.
As a Hong Kong local, I have to disagree with you on this. Although the lands are way too small with way too little attractions, I have to say that they did a pretty good job in making it as immersive as possible. The tall trees framing each land as well as the impeccably themed buildings actually make you feel like you're on a secluded island or uncharted territory. Main Street has always felt a little too small (both in scale and area) to me, and it honestly did not compliment the original SBC too well in terms of size; I always felt like some of the taller buildings in Main Street were almost, if not just as tall as SBC (and mind you I am a HUGE fan of SBC).

Nonetheless, I do agree with your opinion that the new stuff WDI comes up with is getting weirder and weirder. Correct me if I'm wrong, but are the Asian and American divisions of WDI separate entities with only a minimal level of interaction between them? After looking at some clips from D23 I feel like there's an intangible division in quality between the parks in Europe/America and Asia (but at the same time Tokyo Disneyland seems to always get preferential treatment).

I wonder if the Imagineers in America had a say in the designing process of the castle, or if the Asia division were the ones in charge, because I just can't wrap around the fact that the Imagineers would allow a castle with the funkiest colour scheme and the weirdest architectural contradictions (I mean just about every new tower/turret in the new parts of the castle are Russian/Middle-Eastern domes) to get past the cutting room floor. It just doesn't seem in line with their usual quality/design language. What were they thinking when they designed the new castle? "Because Hong Kong is a global city in Asia/China we better stuff in as many cultural references as possible in the new castle"? Why didn't they do that with the Shanghai castle?

Can someone please enlighten me as to what their design rationale is haha
 

RandySavage

Well-Known Member
The Fortress Explorations is incredibly realistic in its own right. I was dumbfounded how on point they made that little Spanish fort. Now we seem to get a series of cartoonish buildings coming out of WDI.
I agree that Fortress Explorations is among the best centerpieces ever to come out of WDI, but it is a mostly invented and romanticized edifice - and I'm glad it is. Actual forts of the 16th century were comparatively austere and dreary.

I think this is a good way to look at the Disney castles, as well. Just as you won't find an Italian or Spanish fort that looks remotely like Fortress Exploration, you will find no real world examples that look like the Disney Castles. Historic references are used, as mentioned. And buildings grounded in true architectural forms of the older eras are a good thing, but theme parks are also stagecraft. The Disney castles are intended to be from the world of imagination and fairytales, vs. history (unlike, say, Frontierland buildings).

Regarding this HK Castle being too narrow and tall to look livable, one may find similar massings in the burgs of Germany and neighboring areas - most famously Cochem and the lost Konigsberg Palace. Granted, HK's is stretched taller, but to me it's within bounds of the romanticizing style of a theme park. This HK castle doesn't look any less inhabitable than the infalliable DLP chateau.

I believe Douglas Rogers - Disney Animation concept artist of the Tangled palace and tower - was a major design force behind this (he also did Shanghai's).
 
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ParkPeeker

Well-Known Member
I believe Douglas Rogers - Disney Animation concept artist of the Tangled palace and tower - was a major design force behind this (he also did Shanghai's).
Woah really? The tangled tower doesn't look like stone could support it. But I love the look of it, and also the castle in that movie... maybe that's why I like this castle (and shanghai's 😅)
 

DDLand

Well-Known Member
I agree that Fortress Explorations is among the best centerpieces ever to come out of WDI, but it is a mostly invented and romanticized edifice - and I'm glad it is. Actual forts of the 16th century were comparatively austere and dreary.
Oh I’ve got to disagree with that. Spanish and Mediterranean fortresses and castles are beautiful and epic structures. They are super cool. While of course you might find some dull ones, others are awesome. Most every choice in fortress explorations has an architectural or real precedent. The only thing I’m not sure about are the domes. That’s a little more churchy. But Fortress Explorations is so neat. You have multiple different building time periods. First a more classical medieval building. Then on top of that you have perhaps Islamic architecture? Then on top of that you have a return to European styles. It suggests this is a fort that has been occupied and perhaps even fought over for centuries. Rebuilt and expanded time and time again.

So cool!

But your point is taken. It’s idealized.
I think this is a good way to look at the Disney castles, as well. Just as you won't find an Italian or Spanish fort that looks remotely like Fortress Exploration, you will find no real world examples that look like the Disney Castles. Historic references are used, as mentioned. And buildings grounded in true architectural forms of the older eras are a good thing, but theme parks are also stagecraft. The Disney castles are intended to be from the world of imagination and fairytales, vs. history (unlike, say, Frontierland buildings).

Regarding this HK Castle being too narrow and tall to look livable, one may find similar massings in the burgs of Germany and neighboring areas - most famously Cochem and the lost Konigsberg Palace. Granted, HK's is stretched taller, but to me it's within bounds of the romanticizing style of a theme park. This HK castle doesn't look any less inhabitable than the infalliable DLP chateau.

I believe Douglas Rogers - Disney Animation concept artist of the Tangled palace and tower - was a major design force behind this (he also did Shanghai's).
But does idealized mean ripped from reality? I was just thinking about this, so thanks for bringing it up. Cinderella’s Castle is the best looking castle in my book. The community’s infatuation with Paris’s castle suggests an over appreciation for Tony Baxter disconnected from reality. Cinderella’s Castle had to walk this fine line between being taken seriously and being fantasy. It worked beautifully. It’s timeless and is more beloved than ever.

Fantasy does not mean alien or impossible. That’s a recent WDI idea to let all sorts of crappy choices get made. The Magic Kingdom was rooted in real places and environments. Disneyland was rooted in real places and environments. EPCOT Center was rooted in real places and environments. Tokyo Disneyland was rooted in real places and environments. MGM Studios was rooted in real places and environments. It’s been like that since the 1950s. But with the introduction of Toontown and Splash Mountain, erosion began to happen. This was accelerated by a generation of Imagineers who worked on Disneyland Paris having a say in the direction of other parks. It’s been nothing short of unmitigated disaster, with only Joe Rohde managing to put up a resistance at Disney’s Animal Kingdom (and a vocal group of fans are begging for the introduction of a nameless mediocre cartoon at the park... the Z word). Even the once enviable Tokyo Disney Sea is getting a nice helping of animated worlds. This was the difference between the hellish tourist trap many perceived Disney to be and reality. Now the two are beginning to align and become one and the same. I want REAL architecture and REAL environments that are beautiful.

I did think of one good space WDI has created recently- Buena Vista Street. There’s no place on a map that looks like it, but it’s within the realm of possibility.

As for the German castles... I see plenty of livable space. Sure there’s one tower rising above, but over all the castles look functional and inhabitable. The top of the castles also don’t pretend to be anything other than towers. Whereas the impossibly skinny body of HKDL’s Castle pretend to be an actual living space.

As a Hong Kong local, I have to disagree with you on this. Although the lands are way too small with way too little attractions, I have to say that they did a pretty good job in making it as immersive as possible. The tall trees framing each land as well as the impeccably themed buildings actually make you feel like you're on a secluded island or uncharted territory. Main Street has always felt a little too small (both in scale and area) to me, and it honestly did not compliment the original SBC too well in terms of size; I always felt like some of the taller buildings in Main Street were almost, if not just as tall as SBC (and mind you I am a HUGE fan of SBC).
And I hear your point. What I was shocked by was a reliance on foliage to tell the story. The new lands were forest forest forest western mountain. Forest forest forest Victorian mansion. Forest forest forest Toy Story. There was nothing connecting the lands or making them feel like they belonged together. I do get that Hong Kong is really urban so the trees are probably nice. But all the same, it kind of felt like surrendering their role as artists. “Adventureland feels like a real jungle.” Honestly not too impressive seeing as you could let a piece of property sit vacant in Hong Kong for a few decades and it would become jungle. There’s got to be story to go with all those trees, and often there isn’t.

The park lacks cohesion or really any identity. There are two parks inside of the one park. It’s really a bummer because there’s so much that can be done. But it will forever be the Six Flags of Disneylands.
 
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Disneylover152

Well-Known Member
The Magic Kingdom was rooted in real places and environments. Disneyland was rooted in real places and environments. EPCOT Center was rooted in real places and environments. Tokyo Disneyland was rooted in real places and environments. MGM Studios was rooted in real places and environments. It’s been like that since the 1950s. But with the introduction of Toontown and Splash Mountain, erosion began to happen. This was accelerated by a generation of Imagineers who worked on Disneyland Paris having a say in the direction of other parks. It’s been nothing short of unmitigated disaster, with only Joe Rohde managing to put up a resistance at Disney’s Animal Kingdom (and a vocal group of fans are begging for the introduction of a nameless mediocre cartoon at the park... the Z word). Even the once enviable Tokyo Disney Sea is getting a nice helping of animated worlds. This was the difference between the hellish tourist trap many perceived Disney to be and reality. Now the two are beginning to align and become one and the same. I want REAL architecture and REAL environments that are beautiful.

I don’t know where u got the idea that the theme of Disney Parks are reality, that would be a pretty boring park to visit. Walt Disney said himself the theme of Disneyland is the world of yesterday, tomorrow and fantasy. It was all a fantasy version of the American Frontier, Jungles of the world, etc. Do you think if you went back in time to the Wild West it would look like Frontierland? No, it wouldn’t. Frontierland is based on the fantasized version of the west that could be found in movies of the 50s. Hollywood Studios is based on the Hollywood that never existed. The Hollywood that exists in our minds.

Disney parks aren’t supposed to be based on reality. DCA 1.0 was based on reality California and it heavily flopped. Therefore they created a golden age California, the glamorous California that exists in our minds that Walt Disney wanted to visit.

Tokyo Disney Sea & Epcot are really the only Disney parks fully based on reality, the other Disney parks aren’t supposed to be fully based on it.
 

Disneylover152

Well-Known Member
Tokyo DisneySea is extremely fantasy-based as well. It's just so well executed that it feels real.

The park that probably attempts the most to be about "reality" is Animal Kingdom imo

No I think Epcot is the most about reality. Epcot is pretty much all real world stuff. Animal Kingdom is the real world mixed with fantasy elements like yetis, dinosaurs, banshis, etc.
 

BrianLo

Well-Known Member
Oh I’ve got to disagree with that. Spanish and Mediterranean fortresses and castles are beautiful and epic structures. They are super cool. While of course you might find some dull ones, others are awesome. Most every choice in fortress explorations has an architectural or real precedent. The only thing I’m not sure about are the domes. That’s a little more churchy. But Fortress Explorations is so neat. You have multiple different building time periods. First a more classical medieval building. Then on top of that you have perhaps Islamic architecture? Then on top of that you have a return to European styles. It suggests this is a fort that has been occupied and perhaps even fought over for centuries. Rebuilt and expanded time and time again.

So cool!

But your point is taken. It’s idealized.

But does idealized mean ripped from reality? I was just thinking about this, so thanks for bringing it up. Cinderella’s Castle is the best looking castle in my book. The community’s infatuation with Paris’s castle suggests an over appreciation for Tony Baxter disconnected from reality. Cinderella’s Castle had to walk this fine line between being taken seriously and being fantasy. It worked beautifully. It’s timeless and is more beloved than ever.

Fantasy does not mean alien or impossible. That’s a recent WDI idea to let all sorts of crappy choices get made. The Magic Kingdom was rooted in real places and environments. Disneyland was rooted in real places and environments. EPCOT Center was rooted in real places and environments. Tokyo Disneyland was rooted in real places and environments. MGM Studios was rooted in real places and environments. It’s been like that since the 1950s. But with the introduction of Toontown and Splash Mountain, erosion began to happen. This was accelerated by a generation of Imagineers who worked on Disneyland Paris having a say in the direction of other parks. It’s been nothing short of unmitigated disaster, with only Joe Rohde managing to put up a resistance at Disney’s Animal Kingdom (and a vocal group of fans are begging for the introduction of a nameless mediocre cartoon at the park... the Z word). Even the once enviable Tokyo Disney Sea is getting a nice helping of animated worlds. This was the difference between the hellish tourist trap many perceived Disney to be and reality. Now the two are beginning to align and become one and the same. I want REAL architecture and REAL environments that are beautiful.

I did think of one good space WDI has created recently- Buena Vista Street. There’s no place on a map that looks like it, but it’s within the realm of possibility.

As for the German castles... I see plenty of livable space. Sure there’s one tower rising above, but over all the castles look functional and inhabitable. The top of the castles also don’t pretend to be anything other than towers. Whereas the impossibly skinny body of HKDL’s Castle pretend to be an actual living space.


And I hear your point. What I was shocked by was a reliance on foliage to tell the story. The new lands were forest forest forest western mountain. Forest forest forest Victorian mansion. Forest forest forest Toy Story. There was nothing connecting the lands or making them feel like they belonged together. I do get that Hong Kong is really urban so the trees are probably nice. But all the same, it kind of felt like surrendering their role as artists. “Adventureland feels like a real jungle.” Honestly not too impressive seeing as you could let a piece of property sit vacant in Hong Kong for a few decades and it would become jungle. There’s got to be story to go with all those trees, and often there isn’t.

The park lacks cohesion or really any identity. There are two parks inside of the one park. It’s really a bummer because there’s so much that can be done. But it will forever be the Six Flags of Disneylands.

I hear your points. I’m no architect, artist or engineer. Nor even want or care to be. I gravitate towards the improbable looks. I prefer DLP over what I feel is TDL’s more drab styling choices.

I can tell you particularly love urban environments, I skew the opposite. The forested nature of HKDL is something I particularly love about it.

That doesn’t make it ‘Six Flag’ though, to me. Albeit my opinion comes completely outside the lens of being educated or informed on these topics.
 

Timothy_Q

Well-Known Member
No I think Epcot is the most about reality. Epcot is pretty much all real world stuff. Animal Kingdom is the real world mixed with fantasy elements like yetis, dinosaurs, banshis, etc.
Yeah AK and EPCOT both touch upon reality in different ways.

Yeti is used in AK the same way trolls were used in Norway.
Mythology is an important part of every culture

And like, dinosaurs aren't fantasy, they're just extinct
 

IMDREW

Well-Known Member
I like the top part of the new castle, it's the bottom I'm worried about :( Don't forget that the castle's top will be a bit wider than it is now when they attach those remaining buttresses to the side of the main tower.
 

brihow

Well-Known Member
Precision.

Fantasy AT DISNEY does not mean impossible or alien. That’s a recent WDI idea to let all sorts of crappy choices get made. And so on and so forth.

All architecture at Disney Parks has been rooted in reality.
You do realize that Pandora and Galaxy's Edge are on ALIEN planets and feature alien characters? I believe that everyone is welcome to their own opinion but what you are trying to say is just not true.
 

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