Rumor Higher Speed Rail from MCO to Disney World

DisneyNeighbor

Active Member
I know Disney is overall the big destination in the area, but is it possible Brightline makes more sense as transportation from the airport to the Convention Centre and I-Drive area than it does to Disney Springs? I don't know the area where the planned stations would be, but I would think the area is more densely packed with attractions and hotels such that it might serve as a more direct form of transportation to those things than it does delivering people essentially to one corner of WDW far away from almost anything other than Disney Springs.

It always struck me this make the most sense for day trippers from Florida to WDW who didn't want to drive, but Disney doesn't seem all that interested in that market anyway.
Brightline is not a commuter rail service. It makes absolutely no sense to stop at the convention center for local travel from the airport. Sunrail is the commuter rail service that should be expanded from the airport to the convention center/universal and Disney. Brightline is a great option for people to connect to the major airports and/or go to Disney from the Miami area or Tampa area. Brightline model won't work filling their trains with tourists from MCO to Disney Springs.
 

JoeCamel

Well-Known Member
Brightline is not a commuter rail service. It makes absolutely no sense to stop at the convention center for local travel from the airport. Sunrail is the commuter rail service that should be expanded from the airport to the convention center/universal and Disney. Brightline is a great option for people to connect to the major airports and/or go to Disney from the Miami area or Tampa area. Brightline model won't work filling their trains with tourists from MCO to Disney Springs.
So in your model it is OK to stop at WDW and go to Disney but not to go to a convention or to Universal?
OK......
 

cloudboy

Well-Known Member
Don't forget that the expansion to Disney Spring is part of the much larger phase 2 - which also includes expansion to Tampa. So you would be drawing in riders not only from the east but also from the west.
 

Rich Brownn

Well-Known Member
Brightline is not a commuter rail service. It makes absolutely no sense to stop at the convention center for local travel from the airport. Sunrail is the commuter rail service that should be expanded from the airport to the convention center/universal and Disney. Brightline is a great option for people to connect to the major airports and/or go to Disney from the Miami area or Tampa area. Brightline model won't work filling their trains with tourists from MCO to Disney Springs.
Actually considering the number of conventioneers who fly into MCO, it makes perfect sense. Running hourly or so still works for conventioneers better than tourists.
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
Brightline is not a commuter rail service. It makes absolutely no sense to stop at the convention center for local travel from the airport. Sunrail is the commuter rail service that should be expanded from the airport to the convention center/universal and Disney. Brightline is a great option for people to connect to the major airports and/or go to Disney from the Miami area or Tampa area. Brightline model won't work filling their trains with tourists from MCO to Disney Springs.
This new route provide access for both Brightline and SunRail. Brightline wasn’t opposed to a stop at the Convention Center, they just didn’t think it was worth doubling their cost to build out to I-4.
 

TP2000

Well-Known Member
So in your model it is OK to stop at WDW and go to Disney but not to go to a convention or to Universal?
OK......

I think @DisneyNeighbor has a valid point. Big cities served by high-speed rail have only a few stations in a metro area. I'm thinking of Tokyo with their Shinkansen (bullet train) system. That massive city in a nation that literally invented the bullet train and now has a dozen Shinkansen lines has exactly two stations served by Shinkansens. Two. 2.

Tokyo, Japan
Metro Population = 38 Million People
Metro Size = 5,400 Square Miles
High Speed Rail Stations = 2 (Tokyo Station, Shinagawa Station)


Once a passenger arrives from afar on a Shinkansen at those two large stations, they transfer to a local transportation service to go on to their hotel, or home, or convention, or business meeting.

Orlando is not Tokyo or Paris, and never will be. Hell, it won't even be Atlanta or Dallas. Orlando will never have a central business district that mass amounts of people will need/want to access. The main stations in Orlando are perfectly placed for the market Brightline is serving; MCO and WDW. But if there's a passenger who then wants to transfer on to Universal, or OCCC, or Legoland, or the SunTrust building downtown, they can do that from the Brightline station efficiently.

There's also the technological issue of how high speed rail works. They are efficient because they move fast, but it takes a reasonable distance of several miles to get up to high speed.

If Orlando wants a regional commuter rail system, it should build one. Brightline is not regional commuter rail, it is statewide high(er) speed rail.

As a Californian, I must marvel at the brilliant way Florida has used private capital to create a statewide, modern rail system out of thin air. Here in California we have spent over $10 Billion in the last 15 years on our high speed rail, and we are still a decade and many Billions more away from seeing a train run on the line. And assuming once a train does run on California's high speed rail in 2030?... It will run from Bakersfield to Merced. Literally a $30 Billion bullet train to nowhere. :banghead:

 
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TrainsOfDisney

Well-Known Member
As a Californian, I must marvel at the brilliant way Florida has used private capital to create a statewide, modern rail system out of thin air. Here in California we have spent over $10 Billion in the last 15 years on our high speed rail, and we are still a decade and many Billions more away from seeing a train run on the line. And assuming once a train does run on California's high speed rail in 2030?... It will run from Bakersfield to Merced. Literally a $30 Billion bullet train to nowhere. :banghead:
To be fair... Florida’s actual HSR plan was cancelled. This is a new plan that Florida is letting happen, but did not try to make happen.

It’s also using lots of existing infrastructure and the tracks it needs to build are in Florida, a very flat state. Lol. And said tracks will only be good for “higher” speed rail (up to 125)

In California they are laying all new tracks, from scratch, in some very crazy landscapes (tunneling through a mountain and such). And said tracks will be good for true high speed rail (up to 220).
 

Vegas Disney Fan

Well-Known Member
To be fair... Florida’s actual HSR plan was cancelled. This is a new plan that Florida is letting happen, but did not try to make happen.

It’s also using lots of existing infrastructure and the tracks it needs to build are in Florida, a very flat state. Lol. And said tracks will only be good for “higher” speed rail (up to 125)

In California they are laying all new tracks, from scratch, in some very crazy landscapes (tunneling through a mountain and such). And said tracks will be good for true high speed rail (up to 220).

If it ever gets completed…

We take the high speed trains in Europe whenever possible but California is putting the cart before the horse, their plans are so lofty I doubt they’ll ever complete it. I think they would have been much better off starting with something smaller like Brightline and then expanding from there.

I live in Vegas and have been a strong proponent for high speed rail between here and LA for years, it would have been a great introduction to US riders not familiar with trains, unfortunately every time a decent proposal has come up it’s countered with a Maglev or some other proposal that has no chance of ever being completed because it costs tens of billions. Had they built the Victorville to Vegas line with proven 180mph European trains they could have done it for a reasonable price and exposed millions of people a year to how nice it is sitting on a train instead of sitting in gridlock on an interstate, the “gotta build the latest and greatest” always got in the way though. They probably could have finished a normal HS train 20 years ago.

You gotta crawl before you walk but it feels like CA is trying to run a marathon before even taking its first steps, I don’t think it’s a strategy that will work. While CA thinks about how great their system “will be” Brightline has already been moving people for years, it may not be the fastest but it’s feasible.
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
If it ever gets completed…

We take the high speed trains in Europe whenever possible but California is putting the cart before the horse, their plans are so lofty I doubt they’ll ever complete it. I think they would have been much better off starting with something smaller like Brightline and then expanding from there.

I live in Vegas and have been a strong proponent for high speed rail between here and LA for years, it would have been a great introduction to US riders not familiar with trains, unfortunately every time a decent proposal has come up it’s countered with a Maglev or some other proposal that has no chance of ever being completed because it costs tens of billions. Had they built the Victorville to Vegas line with proven 180mph European trains they could have done it for a reasonable price and exposed millions of people a year to how nice it is sitting on a train instead of sitting in gridlock on an interstate, the “gotta build the latest and greatest” always got in the way though. They probably could have finished a normal HS train 20 years ago.

You gotta crawl before you walk but it feels like CA is trying to run a marathon before even taking its first steps, I don’t think it’s a strategy that will work. While CA thinks about how great their system “will be” Brightline has already been moving people for years, it may not be the fastest but it’s feasible.
Brightline West.
 

DisneyNeighbor

Active Member
So in your model it is OK to stop at WDW and go to Disney but not to go to a convention or to Universal?
OK......
Logistic wise yes! Too many grade crossing on the convention center route! I feel the original route would be less congested for this type of rail service. They should build both routes and expand Sun Rail to run from the airport to Universal and the Convention Center. Disney should support SunRail connecting on their property. This could expand their employment applicant pool!
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
Logistic wise yes! Too many grade crossing on the convention center route! I feel the original route would be less congested for this type of rail service. They should build both routes and expand Sun Rail to run from the airport to Universal and the Convention Center. Disney should support SunRail connecting on their property. This could expand their employment applicant pool!
The new route would be owned by SunRail and was intended to allow for SunRail expansion. Prior route plans in the area have used elevated tracks to avoid grade crossings.
 

Disone

Well-Known Member
Actually considering the number of conventioneers who fly into MCO, it makes perfect sense. Running hourly or so still works for conventioneers better than tourists.
The number of conventioneers coming to the Orange county convention center honestly is not that impressive compared to the number of visitors coming to the local theme parks. The Orange county convention center comes in at about 1.5 million annual visits. During COVID in the year 2020 Universal's two theme parks combined for an attendance of 8,101,000.
Add in the 1.5 million from the convention center and that stop would have been part of a pie 9.6 million visitors in 2020

That same COVID year the four Disney parks combined for 18,226,000 visits.

Now let's look at a year where both parks were rocking it. In 2019, Universal came in with its two parks at 21,297,000 visits. Meanwhile, the Disney parks came in at $58,778,000 visits. The Magic Kingdom alone had over 20 million visits. Almost the same as the two universal parks combined. People think Universal is nipping on Disney's heels. Unfortunately, it is not. People think Disney has or could panic but I challenge you to look at what Disney has done, and they have never panicked. At best They have added a ride or two In response to competition.

From a ridership standpoint, getting a small piece of a much bigger pie, I think it was a mistake from Bright line to go to the convention center rather than Disney. The numbers strongly suggest they should have gone to Disney.
 
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TP2000

Well-Known Member
To be fair... Florida’s actual HSR plan was cancelled. This is a new plan that Florida is letting happen, but did not try to make happen.

It’s also using lots of existing infrastructure and the tracks it needs to build are in Florida, a very flat state. Lol. And said tracks will only be good for “higher” speed rail (up to 125).

Whatever the private/public path that it took to make it to reality, at least Florida actually has the nation's newest passenger rail system traveling at 125 mph with Brightline. California's got zilch so far. With vague words about maybe having a train from Bakersfield to Merced in another decade.

Heck, Brightline has actual passenger trains operating today. And even has an active website! :D


In California they are laying all new tracks, from scratch, in some very crazy landscapes (tunneling through a mountain and such). And said tracks will be good for true high speed rail (up to 220).

I voted for Prop 1A back in '08, and have repeatedly used Amtrak's long distance trains for the past 50 years for long-distance interstate travel. So I feel I get a few extra words on this one... ;)

(It's obvious you are also a train fan @TrainsOfDisney , but don't you find it funny how all these young hipsters today want folks to ride the train more but they never actually use trains themselves and instead fly or drive when they do interstate travel?! Talk about hypocritical virtue signaling! 🤣 )

The high speed rail under construction in California only goes up the Central Valley. That part of California is flat as a pancake and looks more like Kansas than California. Governor Newsom already cancelled any further expansion of California's high speed rail system beyond that segment, so no mega-engineering through mountains and canyons will likely ever take place. This is what the current route of California's small high speed rail stretch looks like from Bakersfield to Merced.

Is it Wichita? No, it's Fresno! 😴

maxresdefault.jpg

 
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lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
From a ridership standpoint, getting a small piece of a much bigger pie, I think it was a mistake from Bright line to go to the convention center rather than Disney. The numbers strongly suggest they should have gone to Disney.
Brightline did want to go to Disney. This wasn’t supposed to be an either-or scenario.
 

Disone

Well-Known Member
Brightline did want to go to Disney. This wasn’t supposed to be an either-or scenario.
But they made it one when they chose a different route after agreeing with Disney for the original road.

I don't support Disney's back out. Nonetheless, I do understand it. The way bright line was going to work. It was never going to be a replacement to magical Express. But it was going to be one of many options of getting from the airport, AND South Florida, to Disney and for that option Disney did not want its guests using it to stop at Universal first.

When the agreement was made, it was a direct line from the airport.

They changed the scoop of the project and Disney changed its mind.

I think this is why you see bright line now scrambling to get a Disney adjacent station. They need the station more than Disney needs it. While their business plan probably was never to be a Disney's magical Express, it's certainly was to help with all the South Florida traffic that drives to Disney World. That is exactly the business they are in, feeling that niche of too far to drive but too close to fly.
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
But they made it one when they chose a different route after agreeing with Disney for the original road.

I don't support Disney's back out. Nonetheless, I do understand it. The way bright line was going to work. It was never going to be a replacement to magical Express. But it was going to be one of many options of getting from the airport, AND South Florida, to Disney and for that option Disney did not want its guests using it to stop at Universal first.

When the agreement was made, it was a direct line from the airport.

They changed the scoop of the project and Disney changed its mind.

I think this is why you see bright line now scrambling to get a Disney adjacent station. They need the station more than Disney needs it. While their business plan probably was never to be a Disney's magical Express, it's certainly was to help with all the South Florida traffic that drives to Disney World. That is exactly the business they are in, feeling that niche of too far to drive but too close to fly.
When the agreement was made the exact route had not yet been chosen. Brightline was still working out whether or not they would follow FL-417 or the old Florida High Speed Rail route. You can find CFX meeting presentations in this thread showing this work and evaluation of the two routes.
 

Disone

Well-Known Member
When the agreement was made the exact route had not yet been chosen. Brightline was still working out whether or not they would follow FL-417 or the old Florida High Speed Rail route. You can find CFX meeting presentations in this thread showing this work and evaluation of the two routes.
The preferred route was clear though. There were two options and bright line was clear that they preferred the hunters Creek option. And then came the opposition.
 

TrainsOfDisney

Well-Known Member
Governor Newsom already cancelled any further expansion of California's high speed rail system beyond that segment, so no mega-engineering through mountains and canyons will likely ever take place.
Ah! I didn’t realize that. What a mess. I do think it’s smart to build true HSR in California, but they have got to get something running ASAP. That was a smart move from Brightline, they started running short trips early on and have gradually expanded service.
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
The preferred route was clear though. There were two options and bright line was clear that they preferred the hunters Creek option. And then came the opposition.
They preferred it because it was half the cost and had a direct connection to SunRail (passenger access and the ability to lease track access to the airport). The local desire to serve more areas wasn’t some huge shock, but it had issues of cost and connections to SunRail. Brightline was in a pick two of three scenario and this new route figured out a way to do all three.
 

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