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Haunted Mansion to Return with New Enhancements and Magic :(

TP2000

Well-Known Member
What's wrong with how she looks?

Nothing really. But that "look" just depressed wage growth for CM's for at least the next five years, perhaps through the end of the decade.

It's fascinating to me all these folks that think "respecting" CM's means lowering standards and widening the labor pool so that their wages and benefits can grow slower instead of faster. Apparently high schools no longer teach basic economics and the tenets of Capitalism to their students. Am I really one of the only ones left who knows what the Law of Supply & Demand is and how it works? o_O

Sure, a CM like this can roll into work now with all her big tats showing and her black nail polish and really be "herself", because after all she is the Star of the Show! and she is the reason people pay big bucks to go to Disney World or Disneyland. And she probably thinks, like a surprising number of people here, that what that means is that Disney really loves her now and wants her to be herself.

Hogwash. All TDO and TDA did by lowering standards was widen the labor pool and depress CM wage growth for years to come.

And Burbank execs are laughing all the way to the bank that so many of those peon theme park CM's bought into their "Inclusion" propaganda hook, line, and sinker. :rolleyes:
 

owlsandcoffee

Well-Known Member
Nothing really. But that "look" just depressed wage growth for CM's for at least the next five years, perhaps through the end of the decade.

It's fascinating to me all these folks that think "respecting" CM's means lowering standards and widening the labor pool so that their wages and benefits can grow slower instead of faster.

Sure, a CM like this can roll into work now with all her big tats showing and her black nail polish and really be "herself", because after all she is the Star of the Show! and she is the reason people pay big bucks to go to Disney World or Disneyland. And she probably thinks, like a surprising number of people here, that what that means is that Disney really loves her now and wants her to be herself.

Hogwash. All TDO and TDA did by lowering standards was widen the labor pool and depress CM wage growth for years to come.

And Burbank execs are laughing all the way to the bank that so many of those peon theme park CM's bought into their "Inclusion" propaganda hook, line, and sinker. :rolleyes:

Wage growth at Disney is entirely up to corporate. They wouldn't have raised wages any more than they had to by law, they hate unions and worker empowerment (one of the worst aspects of Walt, passed on down the line). I don't think this has anything to do with wages. It's about having customers be able to "see themselves" at Disney. A cast member with the same hair as them, etc. I do admit it's immersion-breaking to have a tatted worker in a turn-of-the-century town.
 

TP2000

Well-Known Member
If I were to see this CM outside of Disneyland I wouldn’t think twice but how does that sleeve work at Disneyland? They go through the trouble of creating different costumes for different lands but a CM can show off their sleeve now while wearing a short sleeve shirt? How does that work on Main Street with Dapper Dans singing in the background? Tbh it’s kind of distracting. I imagine it’ll become normal at some point but it’s just another reminder of the real world when I’m at Disneyland. They keep doing this kind of stuff. Eventually we won’t feel that we escaped to a different time and place. We’ll just be in Anaheim in the mid 2020’s.

Exactly. I addressed the issues of economics and labor costs and wages just above. But I didn't even touch the antique notion that Disneyland is a "show" and that the employees there are "Cast Members" with a role in that show and its themed environments.

The whole thing is a mess, and it makes no sense.

I'm fascinated by how many Disney fans here think this is a positive change, and apparently have no concept of how labor rates work in a Capitalist society. There's an entire battalion of sharp pencil boys in Burbank right now who are laughing at the CM's for buying into all of this, thinking it's a positive change that will somehow make their lives better. In actuality, it does the exact opposite.

But sure, go on and show off those badass tats you got at the strip mall for us on Main Street USA! You look great! Forget about your future wages in 2023, live for today and be yourself!!! Widen that labor pool even more! :rolleyes:
 

TP2000

Well-Known Member
Didn't Ken Potluck say that last night? That people come to Disney Parks for the CMs? That guy is a hoot!

He read that cue card like a boss! I think he maybe even practiced it for 20 minutes. Well... at least 15.

Wage growth at Disney is entirely up to corporate. They wouldn't have raised wages any more than they had to by law, they hate unions and worker empowerment (one of the worst aspects of Walt, passed on down the line). I don't think this has anything to do with wages. It's about having customers be able to "see themselves" at Disney. A cast member with the same hair as them, etc. I do admit it's immersion-breaking to have a tatted worker in a turn-of-the-century town.

Disney's theme park and hotel business does not exist in a vacuum. The same pressures that drive wage growth at IHOP on Harbor Blvd. drive wage growth at the Haunted Mansion. Or, in this case, suppress wage growth.

A wider labor pool suppresses wage growth. That is simply a fact. They used to teach the economic tenets of Capitalism in high school. But maybe they don't any more? It's been many decades since high school for me, but my Economics teacher Mr. Douthit (pronounced Doo-Tee) is rolling over in his grave right now over this. He also taught me how to balance a checking account. 🧐

And as a reminder, I am not talking about a few of the Disney Look changes related to religious or cultural beliefs. Those are great.

I'm talking about CM's in short sleeves shirts and shorts showing all their awesome tats and the guy working in Frontierland who no longer has to take off his gorgeous sparkly pearl-drop earrings before he goes to work at the mine train ride.

Again, I'm absolutely blown away at how few CM's seem to even comprehend that this was about depressing wages and increasing the labor pool of unskilled workers available to hire off the street.

TDA/TDO wrapped that steaming pile of cheaper labor costs up in a beautiful bow of INCLUSION! and the CM's seem to have been completely fooled by it all.

There's a few execs patting themselves on the back right now as they recalibrate wage growth downward for this decade.
 
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owlsandcoffee

Well-Known Member
There's a few execs patting themselves on the back right now as they recalibrate wage growth downward for this decade.
I actually do think you're right about this; I think that the main motivator was that it increases their hiring pool, in order to make it easier to keep paying crappy wages.

I'm just saying that it also is good in some ways, like those you mentioned.
 

raven24

Well-Known Member
If I were to see this CM outside of Disneyland I wouldn’t think twice but how does that sleeve work at Disneyland? They go through the trouble of creating different costumes for different lands but a CM can show off their sleeve now while wearing a short sleeve shirt? How does that work on Main Street with Dapper Dans singing in the background? Tbh it’s kind of distracting. I imagine it’ll become normal at some point but it’s just another reminder of the real world when I’m at Disneyland. They keep doing this kind of stuff. Eventually we won’t feel that we escaped to a different time and place. We’ll just be in Anaheim in the mid 2020’s.
How do sunglasses work on Main Street? Or modern day African American hairstyles?

The "real world" thing that Disney fans love to talk about has never applied to me, personally, which is probably one of the reasons why this decision from Disney to update the CM look doesn't bother me. I'm still in Anaheim when I'm at Disneyland and it doesn't bother me. I can sometimes hear the ongoing traffic when I'm on property and can see much of Harbor Blvd when I'm on the Monorail. I've left the parks to walk to that 7-Eleven and/or Cold Stone down the street for a snack when I didn't feel like spending the money inside the parks. None of it bothers me. None of the CMs on Main Street actually make me feel like I'm legit walking through late 19th/early 20th century Marceline, Missouri. Same goes for the CMs in all the other lands. I'm able to suspend a bit of disbelief, but not to the point where the fakeness actually feels super real. It never does for me because there are too many contemporary things clashing with everything. Again, I'm okay with that.

I'm also coming from the perspective of an ex-CM, who never got paid enough to care greatly about these things and was treated like crap. If the CM pictured still offers great customer service, her tattoo shouldn't eclipse that.
 

TP2000

Well-Known Member
I actually do think you're right about this; I think that the main motivator was that it increases their hiring pool, in order to make it easier to keep paying crappy wages.

I'm just saying that it also is good in some ways, like those you mentioned.

This isn't me saying this, this is hundreds of years of Capitalism saying this. It's just how it works.

I haven't read a post from a single person who claimed "Those darn Sikh's shouldn't be allowed to wear their turbans at work!" And if I did read a post like that, I'd join in the chorus condemning it.

This is primarily about things a CM does before they start their shift to alter their appearance and make customers comfortable. A CM needs to shower and use deodorant, comb their hair, brush their teeth, put on a clean uniform, apply complimentary makeup or grooming aids that enhance their appearance, etc.

CM's also used to have to cover up tattoos (which they'd been doing since that rule got started in the late 1950's, I guarantee you), and men had to do things like remove their gorgeous earrings before they went to work in Frontierland.

Now they don't have to do much of that. Many CM's seem to have judged this as a big win for themselves, likely after chafing under supervision by dorky Dockers-clad managers who enforced all the rules. The CM's seem to think that someone in corporate, that infamous "they" that people always refer to, changed these rules to bring happiness and inclusion and mellow vibes to all of humanity.

They didn't. These rules were changed to widen the labor pool and make it easier and cheaper to fill entry-level theme park jobs.
 

owlsandcoffee

Well-Known Member
They didn't. These rules were changed to widen the labor pool and make it easier and cheaper to fill entry-level theme park jobs.

Right, yes.

I do believe that Disney has the room to choose not to do the most profitable thing, if they wanted to. They just don't want to, because they want literally all of the money on earth.
 

TP2000

Well-Known Member
How do sunglasses work on Main Street? Or modern day African American hairstyles?

They kept the rules on sunglasses a small novel. They've got rules a mile long on those. I think that's hysterical when so many of the rest of the rules were abandoned and summarized in a single sentence. Somehow, they really think sunglasses are their secret weapon to providing great customer service. 🤣

You've mentioned hairstyles for Black folks before, and I'm not sure what makes a difference for a "modern day" hairstyle if its a Black or Asian or white person. Black CM's began sporting naturals at Disneyland back in the 1970's. I've seen photos of that. I imagine it was also quite a prominent feature at WDW in the 1970's, just owing to the fact that metro Orlando has a Black population that's around 25% of the citizenry compared to only 2% of the citizenry in Orange County.

Regardless of whether or not a CM has flat hair, wavy hair, curly hair, or very uncooperative combination hair (a feature of several of my Scottish relatives)... If a CM can't have a purple mohawk, that should be a rule for everyone regardless of color of skin. Right?

I'm also coming from the perspective of an ex-CM, who never got paid enough to care greatly about these things and was treated like crap. If the CM pictured still offers great customer service, her tattoo shouldn't eclipse that.

You've made it clear you truly disliked your employment at Disneyland. Low pay and bad benefits. Awful management. Horrible parking. Crappy food in the cafeterias. Etc., etc. I think we can all commiserate with most of that.

I'm curious why you stayed there as long as you did? I had two jobs as a young person after the service that I absolutely hated, with truly wicked and/or idiotic bosses. I left both jobs quickly.

All that said, if TDA can get a small line of applicants to fill their entry level jobs, they are happy. These latest, and quite major, changes to the grooming rules will only allow more people to wander in off Ball Road to apply for these jobs. There will be less inclination for TDA executives to increase the pay rates or improve benefits to retain people if they can automatically replace you within minutes.
 
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AL2000HS

Well-Known Member

Found a video. Not a great one, unfortunately. It looks like the ghosts in the graveyard pop more than they have for many years. The ghost fruit on the dining room table aren't working and I couldn't hear the skull that blasts out of the coffin. Still, as long as it's just some effects not working, seems no major alterations, soundtrack is still original. I'd say HM was spared by this refurb.
Ghost fruit never worked when I was there 10 + years ago. Don't know if they ever turned that on since then.
 

TP2000

Well-Known Member
Ghost fruit never worked when I was there 10 + years ago. Don't know if they ever turned that on since then.

Ghost fruit. That's a new one, and you don't want to know where my mind wandered with that! 🤣

Do they still do that cheesy thing where they create a Hidden Mickey with the plates on the banquet table? I always thought that was such a dumb thing to do at a ride that opened in 1969, twenty years before Hidden Mickey's became a thing with third generation Imagineers.

Leave that amateur Hidden Mickey stuff for Florida and the bored housewives from Ohio.
 

raven24

Well-Known Member
You've mentioned hairstyles for Black folks before, and I'm not sure what makes a difference for a "modern day" hairstyle if its a Black or Asian or white person. Black CM's began sporting naturals at Disneyland back in the 1970's. I've seen photos of that. I imagine it was also quite a prominent feature at WDW in the 1970's, just owing to the fact that metro Orlando has a Black population that's around 25% of the citizenry compared to only 2% of the citizenry in Orange County.

Regardless of whether or not a CM has flat hair, wavy hair, curly hair, or very uncooperative combination hair (a feature of several of my Scottish relatives)... If a CM can't have a purple mohawk, that should be a rule for everyone regardless of color of skin. Right?



You've made it clear you truly disliked your employment at Disneyland. Low pay and bad benefits. Awful management. Horrible parking. Crappy food in the cafeterias. Etc., etc. I think we can all commiserate with most of that.

I'm curious why you stayed there as long as you did? I had two jobs as a young person after the service that I absolutely hated, with truly wicked and/or idiotic bosses. I left both jobs quickly.

All that said, if TDA can get a small line of applicants to fill their entry level jobs, they are happy. These latest, and quite major, changes to the grooming rules will only allow more people to wander in off Ball Road to apply for these jobs. There will be less inclination for TDA executives to increase the pay rates or improve benefits to retain people if they can automatically replace you within minutes.
I continue to mention black hair because it is still a taboo in this 21st century we're living in. States are literally having to create laws surrounding hair for black people and anti-discrimination, California being the first to do so. Black hair is likely to stand out more when compared to a white or Asian person, who have similar hair, especially when folks are supposed to believe you're a figure from 19th century Marceline, Missouri.

I didn't stay long at all. I was there for a few months. I initially planned to stay after my first semester with the Disney College Program to work my way up through the company, but that changed immediately. It's the second shortest position I've ever held.
 

AL2000HS

Well-Known Member
Ghost fruit. That's a new one, and you don't want to know where my mind wandered with that! 🤣

Do they still do that cheesy thing where they create a Hidden Mickey with the plates on the banquet table? I always thought that was such a dumb thing to do at a ride that opened in 1969, twenty years before Hidden Mickey's became a thing with third generation Imagineers.

Leave that amateur Hidden Mickey stuff for Florida and the bored housewives from Ohio.
Maybe? When I went on of earlier this week I was too distracted by non dressed animatronics to notice
 

TP2000

Well-Known Member
I continue to mention black hair because it is still a taboo in this 21st century we're living in. States are literally having to create laws surrounding hair for black people and anti-discrimination, California being the first to do so. Black hair is likely to stand out more when compared to a white or Asian person, who have similar hair, especially when folks are supposed to believe you're a figure from 19th century Marceline, Missouri.

Well, I'm not sure what's taboo about hair. Disneyland has never asked Black CM's to hide their hair, or wear a Shirley Temple wig, or anything like that. Naturals arrived at Disneyland in the early 1970's at the same time they arrived for many Black folks then. Cornrows, braids, and other hairstyles complimentary to Black hair have been seen on CM's for decades now.

I guess I just don't know what a "modern day" hairstyle is for a Black person that isn't allowed in the current guidelines. Or even the old guidelines from the last 20 years or so.

What was it exactly you weren't allowed to do with your hair as a CM that a white girl could have done?

I didn't stay long at all. I was there for a few months. I initially planned to stay after my first semester with the Disney College Program to work my way up through the company, but that changed immediately. It's the second shortest position I've ever held.

Oh, okay. I thought you were a CM there for a few years. My mistake.

At least you realized it was not for you and you moved on. I can think of a couple of businesses I was at where a few people were miserable and complained constantly, and then I found out they'd been there for 20 years! Idiots. 🤣
 

raven24

Well-Known Member
Well, I'm not sure what's taboo about hair. Disneyland has never asked Black CM's to hide their hair, or wear a Shirley Temple wig, or anything like that. Naturals arrived at Disneyland in the early 1970's at the same time they arrived for many Black folks then. Cornrows, braids, and other hairstyles complimentary to Black hair have been seen on CM's for decades now.

I guess I just don't know what a "modern day" hairstyle is for a Black person that isn't allowed in the current guidelines. Or even the old guidelines from the last 20 years or so.

What was it exactly you weren't allowed to do with your hair as a CM that a white girl could have done?
Black hair has been taboo in the United States since the time of slavery, and continues to be, hence the laws.

Your mentioning of black hairstyles is precisely the point I was trying to make. My point wasn't regarding how we can and can't wear our hair, but how our distinct and unique hairstyles look on a Main Street CM that is supposed to look like someone from 19th century Missouri. Someone wearing individuals, box braids, bantu knots, butterfly locs, etc. is clearly going to stand out on Main Street and pretty much everywhere else, with the exception of Tomorrowand, Toontown, and maybe Critter Country.
 

TrojanUSC

Well-Known Member
This isn't me saying this, this is hundreds of years of Capitalism saying this. It's just how it works.

I haven't read a post from a single person who claimed "Those darn Sikh's shouldn't be allowed to wear their turbans at work!" And if I did read a post like that, I'd join in the chorus condemning it.

This is primarily about things a CM does before they start their shift to alter their appearance and make customers comfortable. A CM needs to shower and use deodorant, comb their hair, brush their teeth, put on a clean uniform, apply complimentary makeup or grooming aids that enhance their appearance, etc.

CM's also used to have to cover up tattoos (which they'd been doing since that rule got started in the late 1950's, I guarantee you), and men had to do things like remove their gorgeous earrings before they went to work in Frontierland.

Now they don't have to do much of that. Many CM's seem to have judged this as a big win for themselves, likely after chafing under supervision by dorky Dockers-clad managers who enforced all the rules. The CM's seem to think that someone in corporate, that infamous "they" that people always refer to, changed these rules to bring happiness and inclusion and mellow vibes to all of humanity.

They didn't. These rules were changed to widen the labor pool and make it easier and cheaper to fill entry-level theme park jobs.

There's a gazillion rules for characters to follow about what they can autograph (eg they can't sign the front of a baseball cap sporting an baseball team) or what can be in photos (eg Mickey can't be seen in a photo with alcohol). Tons of arguably silly policies. All to keep the Disney brand from being tainted, but Jim from Irvine can sport tattoos showcasing and advertising just about anything, while working on turn of the century Main Street and somehow that's okay? It's just so jarring.

I'm all for Disney updating their look guidelines to be more gender inclusive, given the strides we've made as a culture to better accepting/understanding LGBT issues. However, the fact this is being conflated with CMs now being able to sport any kind of tattoo they want (with the faintest of exceptions) is regretful. They are not the same and they are somehow being lumped into it.

The entire orthodoxy of working at Walt Disney World or Disneyland is that you are not an employee, but rather a cast member who is part of the show. When you are interfacing with guests you are on stage. It's beaten into you from day one. Allowing cast members to become walking billboards has nothing to do with inclusion and everything to with broadening the available labor pool.
 

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